New GW Specialist Studio - Including LOTR, Epic, BB, BFG - Small scale Warlord Titan by FW (one-off)

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**Warhams-77**

The latest Blood Bowl releases from Black Library made it clear that Blood Bowl is still set in an alternate reality of the (Warhammer) Old World. There is no need after AoS to change Blood Bowl

Blood Bowl

Welcome to a delightfully twisted fantasy world where humans, elves, goblins and ogres work out their aggressions not on the battlefield, but on the football field. When talented scout Slick Fullbelly spots Dunk bringing down a Chimera with a spear from a hundred paces, he's sure that his search is over. Slick works for the Bad Bay Hackers, and they need a new thrower. Dunk is about to be plunged headfirst into the insane world of Blood Bowl, the fastest, meanest sport in this dark and brutal world. Dunk puts down his sword and steps off the battlefield... and onto the football field.

This classic Black Library novel was the first ever set in the lunatic alternate fantasy of the Blood Bowl world: a world where the brutal wars of the Old World have been replaced with an arguably even more brutal game of football. If you're after serious fantasy, this is not it. But if you fancy a no holds bared, action packed, rough and tumble roller-coaster of a sporting hero story meets monster mash - then game on!

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/blood-bowl-ebook.html

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Ghaz wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
No. That was a new product, not just 'rebranding'.

As Shakespeare once said, a Coke by any other name, is still a Coke

And I'm pretty sure that auto-correct has spelt the Bard's name wrong, as well.

Except once again, it wasn't just a name change. They actually changed the product. You're ignoring facts because it doesn't support your argument.

Coca Cola were still selling coke, though, just a different recipe.

Just because Ford stopped making the model T years ago, doesn't mean they're not a car company. They still make cars, just different designs.

**decker_cky**

Blood bowl didn't receive any sustained support from GW after 3rd edition (4th edition is roughly 2000 timewise). They redid a few new big guys, and pretty much added new niche teams after that time. They didn't update anything that's really a 'core' team. There's a reason GW redoes space marines every four years, because people will pay for new prettier versions of the stuff they like.

GW only went back to a core team once with blood bowl, and that's the Humans that were released right at the end of blood bowl's life.

Most of the range was still the terrible 5th edition WFB aesthetic (3rd edition blood bowl teams). Just as GW started redoing stuff, they pulled the plug.

I know GW could have justified supporting blood bowl because I see how many companies are able to support themselves selling blood bowl products with no support from GW, and the heavily inflated second hand market.

There was just over 900 players competing at the blood bowl world cup last weekend. Properly supported blood bowl minis will sell (though obviously, there's a lot more competition in terms of available minis these days).

**Malika2**

Whilst Dredd might be a cheap and great game to play, the miniatures sadly enough look as if they've been sculpted in the late 80's, early 90's. The Necromunda stuff is still on a higher level than that.

I think what makes us yearn for those old games maybe isn't even the games themselves of the rates GW will charge for them, but the actual miniatures, background material and artwork. Those have always been the things that attracted me to GW, and I really hope they can deliver that great quality again.

**Bottle**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
All games outside the flagship games were expected to have a limited lifespan and were eventually replaced by other games by GW.

That's not how they sold it to me back then.

I spoke to Jervis years ago at games day, and I received personal guarantees that the specialist games were here to stay.

You're getting your decades mixed up. I was describing the 90s. The "specialist games" banner was the 00s where they brought favorites from the 90s back until they decided they were canabalizing sales and dropped them along with dropping metal production.

I'm sorry Jervis broke his promise to you.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

MLaw wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
AegisGrimm wrote:
I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the inherent problems.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MLaw wrote:
IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.

It's hard to see how Necromunda can compete with other sci-fi skirmish games that are as equally as top notch.

For example, in the Judge Dredd game, you can buy 1 miniature for £5, a mercenary, and ally it with a friend's gang.

Best value for money I've ever seen. Quick to paint as well.

I have the X-wing box set, and all my friend had to do was buy the Millennium Falcon and he was good to go.

Cheap and easy, and hard for GW to compete with.

You say that ... but even as a Judge Dredd fan, I have zero interest in a Dredd miniature game. I know of it. I have seen it and looked over the rules. Frankly though, the premise doesn't do it and a lot of the miniatures are gak.
If you had said Deadzone.. eh.. I'd maybe agree.. I don't like it very well, but there is a following. If you said Infinity, I'd be like.. Oh.. ok.. yeah..that's a hugely popular game! If you had said Warmahordes.. which.. is kinda fantasy but kinda futuristic.. I'd even nod a bit... but Judge Dredd? I kinda feel like you want them to bring Andy and Gav back to make amends. That's ok.. if it's what you're looking for. If I am misreading between the lines, just excuse me.
If your point was a game based on an established IP.. I kinda don't see the relevance of established IP or not.. but by that token, look at the Batman and now Marvel miniature games. I don't think GW should even try to compete with any of the games you've mentioned though. ALL of those games are still contingent upon the trickled release of blisters. At that point it becomes a game of attrition. They have to approach it from outside of the arena and establish it more as a tabletop/boardgame type of situation. Maybe not boardgame per se but set up that type of environment (as I previously said). Trying to beat anyone at their own game is a fool's errand. Change the rules and win the game by default.

Anyway.. I see you keep bringing up X-Wing, and that's fine. I know it's a popular game right now and you're right.. Star Wars is massive. I'm a fan myself. That did not stop Halo's fleet game from coming out though. AFAIK, it launched well. I don't know if it's thriving or sustainable but I do know that the pre-sale for it was pretty successful. I also know that the Star Trek spaceship game fell flat on it's face. Having a franchise doesn't mean you have an instant win.
I also know, from following Andy Chamber on Facebook ...or.. maybe it was Twitter.. There's a BFG video game coming out and Andy is consulting on it. So.. take that as you will.

Obviously it's my personal opinion of games I enjoy and other people may have different ideas on this, as is their right.

The reason why I mentioned Judge Dredd and Star Wars is quell the myth that GW's games sell because they have a strong fluff appeal.

As you know, Star Wars has a background that is light years ahead of anything GW has. No pun intended.

GW's various backgrounds have strong competitors.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Malika2 wrote:
Whilst Dredd might be a cheap and great game to play, the miniatures sadly enough look as if they've been sculpted in the late 80's, early 90's. The Necromunda stuff is still on a higher level than that.

I think what makes us yearn for those old games maybe isn't even the games themselves of the rates GW will charge for them, but the actual miniatures, background material and artwork. Those have always been the things that attracted me to GW, and I really hope they can deliver that great quality again.

You'll get no argument from me about the miniatures. They're good, but not great.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bottle wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
All games outside the flagship games were expected to have a limited lifespan and were eventually replaced by other games by GW.

That's not how they sold it to me back then.

I spoke to Jervis years ago at games day, and I received personal guarantees that the specialist games were here to stay.

You're getting your decades mixed up. I was describing the 90s. The "specialist games" banner was the 00s where they brought favorites from the 90s back until they decided they were canabalizing sales and dropped them along with dropping metal production.

I'm sorry Jervis broke his promise to you.

Jervis is a pretty decent person, and good to talk too, so I forgive him.

**SilverDevilfish**

Hmmm the revamp of Blood Bowl better be good. Unless you really are into the "Killer Fantasy Rugby" miniature style there's little reason for someone new to take the, most likely, more expensive tabletop version over the video game versions. They'll have to change it to make it stand out for sure.

**Malika2**

And whilst Star Wars and Judge Dredd are probably bigger settings than 40k, when it comes to tabletop wargaming GW is still the dominant force out there. More people are playing 40k than lets say X-Wing or Judge Dredd...

**Ghaz**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
No. That was a new product, not just 'rebranding'.

As Shakespeare once said, a Coke by any other name, is still a Coke

And I'm pretty sure that auto-correct has spelt the Bard's name wrong, as well.

Except once again, it wasn't just a name change. They actually changed the product. You're ignoring facts because it doesn't support your argument.

Coca Cola were still selling coke, though, just a different recipe.

Just because Ford stopped making the model T years ago, doesn't mean they're not a car company. They still make cars, just different designs.

And a different recipe is not the same product, or is Age of Sigmar the same as Warhammer Fantasy Battle just with a different 'recipe'? I don't think so.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Malika2 wrote:
And whilst Star Wars and Judge Dredd are probably bigger settings than 40k, when it comes to tabletop wargaming GW is still the dominant force out there. More people are playing 40k than lets say X-Wing or Judge Dredd...

The fact that I've been able to convince people to play X-Wing, when previously these same people would rather carve out their hearts with a rusty spoon than play war-games, says a lot about the power of Star wars, in a way which GW could never hope to compete with.

But I agree, for now, that GW are still ahead, but for how much longer?

**MLaw**

I would also like to point out.. GW knows how well their video games are doing.
Considering there is a video game for Epic, Bloodbowl, Mordheim, and one upcoming for BFG.. I really think they have some good number to base a forward looking strategy on. As a matter of fact, I think they might be using the games as a beach head to establish a bolstered fanbase prior to miniature analogs. It's a logical strategy since the video games can be distributed much farther with less overhead to a massive audience. From what I've heard, the Blood Bowl PS4 game is a lot of fun. I have never played the actual boardgame for BB but I played the hell out of the computer game that came out a few years back.

Either way.. there's been one or two consistent naysayers in the thread and I'm still not sure what the message they're trying to impart is other than "bah humbug". To me it's simple. If these games come out and you don't want to support them.. then pass on them. I think most people understand that sentiment and to a degree might even share it. On the other hand, life is short and holding grudges against miniature games companies seems like maybe not the best way to spend our precious little time.. especially when it can be spent playing those games!

**decker_cky**

SilverDevilfish wrote:
Hmmm the revamp of Blood Bowl better be good. Unless you really are into the "Killer Fantasy Rugby" miniature style there's little reason for someone new to take the, most likely, more expensive tabletop version over the video game versions. They'll have to change it to make it stand out for sure.

The game being far better, even based on the same ruleset, is enough reason already.

**MLaw**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Malika2 wrote:
And whilst Star Wars and Judge Dredd are probably bigger settings than 40k, when it comes to tabletop wargaming GW is still the dominant force out there. More people are playing 40k than lets say X-Wing or Judge Dredd...

The fact that I've been able to convince people to play X-Wing, when previously these same people would rather carve out their hearts with a rusty spoon than play war-games, says a lot about the power of Star wars, in a way which GW could never hope to compete with.

But I agree, for now, that GW are still ahead, but for how much longer?

Playing by your rules.. Star Wars had a miniature game in the 90s. West End Games was the manufacturer. I am an owner of said game. Star Wars had a Miniatures Game fairly recently in the form of Star Wars Miniatures. Star Wars has a semi-miniatures, semi-boardgame miniature game out now called Imperial Assault. The danger of franchise games like this, is that they're reliant upon the agreement for the rights. If the games company is unable to maintain that agreement, the support for that game is guaranteed to end. Not a maybe. So.. with your argument.. the problem was that the bottom will fall out on SG. Well.. I can promise you.. it might not seem like it.. but the bottom will fall out on X-Wing as well. I also have Star Wars Pocket Models Game and probably a few others floating about that are all OOP.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

MLaw wrote:
I would also like to point out.. GW knows how well their video games are doing.
Considering there is a video game for Epic, Bloodbowl, Mordheim, and one upcoming for BFG.. I really think they have some good number to base a forward looking strategy on. As a matter of fact, I think they might be using the games as a beach head to establish a bolstered fanbase prior to miniature analogs. It's a logical strategy since the video games can be distributed much farther with less overhead to a massive audience. From what I've heard, the Blood Bowl PS4 game is a lot of fun. I have never played the actual boardgame for BB but I played the hell out of the computer game that came out a few years back.

Either way.. there's been one or two consistent naysayers in the thread and I'm still not sure what the message they're trying to impart is other than "bah humbug". To me it's simple. If these games come out and you don't want to support them.. then pass on them. I think most people understand that sentiment and to a degree might even share it. On the other hand, life is short and holding grudges against miniature games companies seems like maybe not the best way to spend our precious little time.. especially when it can be spent playing those games!

I agree that it's a good strategy from GW, but FFG have released new ships for a well known blockbuster film that is likely to make a trillion dollars when it comes out next month

Other companies have tricks up their sleeves as well.

I hope you're not referring to me as a naysayer!

I freely admit to having enjoyed GW products over the years, and I hope other people enjoy these new games if they come out. If they're as good as the originals, then new players are in for a treat.

But never the less, my scepticism towards GW is based on personal experience, and their numerous actions over the years that have done damage to retailers, customers, and the wargaming community in general.

I hope people will understand why some people are taking this with a pinch of salt.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MLaw wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Malika2 wrote:
And whilst Star Wars and Judge Dredd are probably bigger settings than 40k, when it comes to tabletop wargaming GW is still the dominant force out there. More people are playing 40k than lets say X-Wing or Judge Dredd...

The fact that I've been able to convince people to play X-Wing, when previously these same people would rather carve out their hearts with a rusty spoon than play war-games, says a lot about the power of Star wars, in a way which GW could never hope to compete with.

But I agree, for now, that GW are still ahead, but for how much longer?

Playing by your rules.. Star Wars had a miniature game in the 90s. West End Games was the manufacturer. I am an owner of said game. Star Wars had a Miniatures Game fairly recently in the form of Star Wars Miniatures. Star Wars has a semi-miniatures, semi-boardgame miniature game out now called Imperial Assault. The danger of franchise games like this, is that they're reliant upon the agreement for the rights. If the games company is unable to maintain that agreement, the support for that game is guaranteed to end. Not a maybe. So.. with your argument.. the problem was that the bottom will fall out on SG. Well.. I can promise you.. it might not seem like it.. but the bottom will fall out on X-Wing as well. I also have Star Wars Pocket Models Game and probably a few others floating about that are all OOP.

True, but GW threw the SG on the scrapheap before, so there's no guarantee that won't happen again.

Warhammer Fantasy is no more, as well.

**Silent Puffin?**

Knockagh wrote:

A space marine gang for necromunda would be immense!

It would be absolutely horrific. Spyrers are bad enough......

**Bull0**

Yeah, I think people understand that over the years GW have done a lot to alienate people. Not exactly breaking new and exciting ground there.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

MLaw wrote:
I would also like to point out.. GW knows how well their video games are doing.
Considering there is a video game for Epic, Bloodbowl, Mordheim, and one upcoming for BFG.. I really think they have some good number to base a forward looking strategy on. As a matter of fact, I think they might be using the games as a beach head to establish a bolstered fanbase prior to miniature analogs. It's a logical strategy since the video games can be distributed much farther with less overhead to a massive audience. From what I've heard, the Blood Bowl PS4 game is a lot of fun. I have never played the actual boardgame for BB but I played the hell out of the computer game that came out a few years back.

Either way.. there's been one or two consistent naysayers in the thread and I'm still not sure what the message they're trying to impart is other than "bah humbug". To me it's simple. If these games come out and you don't want to support them.. then pass on them. I think most people understand that sentiment and to a degree might even share it. On the other hand, life is short and holding grudges against miniature games companies seems like maybe not the best way to spend our precious little time.. especially when it can be spent playing those games!

Random aside, but stick with the old PC Bloodbowl. ;-) Its built around the final fan-rules, and gets you all the teams, and a proper campaign for cheap, whereas the new game is an abysmal, and buggy, cash-grab. :-p

**MLaw**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

True, but GW threw the SG on the scrapheap before, so there's no guarantee that won't happen again.

Warhammer Fantasy is no more, as well.

Eh.. I stopped playing WHFB a while back. It was fun but way too open to abuse. Haven't really felt like that was an itch I needed to go back and scratch badly either. AoS looked like an interesting change of pace but I've not dared touch it with a 10' pole.

As to the actual topic.. SG.. Well.. that's just it. The approach I'm hoping they take doesn't care if they throw it on the scrap heap. It's self-contained. It just exists and does not need a perpetual life cycle. Mordheim, for better or worse, is out there and thanks to the deluge of fantasy models available, you can proxy anything ever given rules in Mordheim. If you're patient, you can run down printed versions but the free versions of the rules (community, bootleg, or other) are not exactly difficult to locate either. I was fortunate enough.. again.. to have my rules and other goodies from when it was still live.. but the game lives, GW be damned. If they approach the other games the way I suggested, all they have to do is sell those kits until people stop buying them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
MLaw wrote:
I would also like to point out.. GW knows how well their video games are doing.
Considering there is a video game for Epic, Bloodbowl, Mordheim, and one upcoming for BFG.. I really think they have some good number to base a forward looking strategy on. As a matter of fact, I think they might be using the games as a beach head to establish a bolstered fanbase prior to miniature analogs. It's a logical strategy since the video games can be distributed much farther with less overhead to a massive audience. From what I've heard, the Blood Bowl PS4 game is a lot of fun. I have never played the actual boardgame for BB but I played the hell out of the computer game that came out a few years back.

Either way.. there's been one or two consistent naysayers in the thread and I'm still not sure what the message they're trying to impart is other than "bah humbug". To me it's simple. If these games come out and you don't want to support them.. then pass on them. I think most people understand that sentiment and to a degree might even share it. On the other hand, life is short and holding grudges against miniature games companies seems like maybe not the best way to spend our precious little time.. especially when it can be spent playing those games!

Random aside, but stick with the old PC Bloodbowl. ;-) Its built around the final fan-rules, and gets you all the teams, and a proper campaign for cheap, whereas the new game is an abysmal, and buggy, cash-grab. :-p

Yeah, I stopped playing the old one because of the bugs in it. I'm waiting for the new one to be the free game for PS+ subscribers

**Slayer-Fan123**

I hate upper management of GW as much as the next guy with a lick of common sense, but if you're going to disparage them over making the correct move and admitting they were wrong doing something, there's some sorta hatred within you that's pretty irrational.

I'm not interested in Blood Bowl, but BFG might peek my interest. I don't know what the other games are though.

**MLaw**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I hate upper management of GW as much as the next guy with a lick of common sense, but if you're going to disparage them over making the correct move and admitting they were wrong doing something, there's some sorta hatred within you that's pretty irrational.

I'm not interested in Blood Bowl, but BFG might peek my interest. I don't know what the other games are though.

Quick Summaries -
Epic Armageddon - 40k Apocalypse style matches but with little 6mm scaled figures.
Bloodbowl - Fantasy Rugby
Mordheim - Fantasy Skirmish in a city ravaged by a meteor strike
Necromunda - Sci-fi skirmish in a hive city
BFG - Spaceship battles
Man-O-War - Naval sea battles
Gorkamorka - Ork gangs battling out with emphasis on light, fast vehicles (think Mad Max)
Warmaster - WHFB but tiny 6mm figures
Inquisitor - Large, action figure sized 40k miniatures with a rpg-like rule set
Aeronautica Imperialis - 40k aerial battles

**Ghaz**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm not interested in Blood Bowl, but BFG might peek my interest. I don't know what the other games are though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_Workshop#Specialist_Games

**Cergorach**

The Star Wars games are all licensed properties, FFG has a bad history with supporting games long term, especially licensed properties. Funnily enough, the Warhammer Fantasy and 40k properties are probably the longest running licensed property FFG has. X-wing / Armada might have another four years in it due to the (probable) popularity of the sequel movies, but will FFG be able to churn out interesting ships for the next four years? I honestly doubt it. The SW universe in it's current form is rather limited (due to the excommunication of the previous extended universe). Star Wars Legends and the prequels might extend the product line, but I wonder how popular it will be... Look at what happened to GW LotR after the last movie, not good for GW, but they've persisted until now. Looking at previous license deals with WEG and WotC, plus how FFG has previously acted with licensed properties past their initial success, I have little hope for extended support. Although the acquisition of FFG by Asmodee might change the future of the SW game at FFG. It of course also depends on till when the license deal expires and what Disney want for an extension of the license...

GW has the luxury of having mostly their own IP, no issue of BFG not being licensed in 5 years, although a new change in leadership might mean that it goes into the freezer for another decade...

**GiraffeX**

Dark Future would be interesting to bring back due to the Mad Max revival.

**ghostmaker**

I am happy I kept all my Specialist games and rule books lol

**Cergorach**

MLaw wrote:

Warmaster - WHFB but tiny 10mm figures

Changed that for you ;-)

**MLaw**

Cergorach wrote:
MLaw wrote:

Warmaster - WHFB but tiny 10mm figures

Changed that for you ;-)

I had thought they were 10mm but someone was saying 6mm earlier.. I think the infantry is 6mm and the vehicles are 10mm or the other way around. I do remember that the scales between the vehicles and infantry are not actually equal.

**Malika2**

GiraffeX wrote:
Dark Future would be interesting to bring back due to the Mad Max revival.

True, but then again...GW would have GorkaMorka for that!

**lord_blackfang**

Malika2 wrote:
It also shows a certain level of 'desperation' at GW's part, or maybe it's the beginning of a big radical change for the company. I mean, WFB got 'canned', the "break glass in case of emergency" promise that are plastic HH models, and now the return of the Specialist Games are signs of this.

However, if this is a path GW will continue to walk, I'm very curious to see what they'll try to do next!

Plastic Thunderhawk

**Malika2**

That would be insane!

**MLaw**

Malika2 wrote:
That would be insanely overpriced!

Fixed