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If their is any game a new Necromunda would compete with, it's not judge dread it is Infinity. Infinity is just played more consistently and supported more consistently across many FLGS. I also feel it's safe to say infinity will be a better game then what ever GW puts out.


But Necromuda will still do realy well. Why? Because Necromunda is still a very strong IP.

 AlexHolker wrote:

decker_cky wrote:
What world are you living in that 10 high quality models for a skirmish game don't cost $80? For that scale of game, that's kind of what you expect (that's pretty much on par with Malifaux, for example).

There's no reason why a 10 man House Cawdor/Redemptionist gang needs to cost more than a 10 man Kabalite Warrior or Wych squad. I'd argue the same is true of House Escher, at least - a good plastic kit would sell a ton to people wanting to bulk out their TGG Jailbirds with cheaper plastic rank and file on top of the usual fans, I'm sure. It's only once you hit the gangs that cannot be slotted straight into 40K or don't have a dedicated fanbase in their own right that the question of whether there is enough demand to support the plastic kit is not an unequivocal "Yes!"

decker_cky wrote:
Looking at blood bowl for example, in terms of third parties, 100 euros is pretty much the price you expect to pay for a full squad of 16. If GW do an excellent team, I'd probably pay a bit more than that.

Try these, for 35 USD.

Well, let's say it costs 10,000$ to design & produce a 10 man plastic kit (10 kabalite warriors or 10 Cawdor gangers). Now let's say that the projected demand of kabalite warriors is 5000 kits and the projected demand of the Cawdor gangers is 1000 kits. It would be reasonable (in my mind, at least) for the company producing these kits to price kabalite warriors at 30$ a box and Cawdor gangers at 50$ a kit.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Henshini wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
There's no need, there's already perfectly good rulesets out in the wild, all we need is straightforward access to appropriate models.

Unless you're talking about fan edits, which I expect GW will explicitly ignore, all of the specialist games I've played(Mordheim, Necromunda and BFG) all have their faults and could use a 2.0. I'd be mildly disappointed if GW simply re-released the last version of the rules they published but I'd be really sad if they did something stupid like make a space marine gang for Necromunda.

Well... A space marine Necromunda gang (not meaning an SM gang in Necromunda itself but a gang in the underhive) could work if we use some of the stuff by Nick Kyme had a salamander fighting in gladiator pits of an underhive

I haven't read past this post... but the Fists -use- to recruit from Necromunda way back in the day..... just putting it out there.

Now I'm kinda torn on this. There are soooo many good looking newish games out there that this feels to little to late. On the other hand, if it was Space Marine (not Epic:A or Epic 40k) and Adeptus Titanicus that was re-released with forgeworld doing the leg work on the rules and the models..... I don't know what to think.

I admit I would be torn on it, I would some how justify it to myself that I'm not buying from GW but from FW. I know it's weak sauce.

I have no problem buying second hand models from people as I would rather help someone else out then GW themselves, but, honestly, release those two games updated and I would buy the rules just to see whats up.

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Henshini wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
There's no need, there's already perfectly good rulesets out in the wild, all we need is straightforward access to appropriate models.

Unless you're talking about fan edits, which I expect GW will explicitly ignore, all of the specialist games I've played(Mordheim, Necromunda and BFG) all have their faults and could use a 2.0. I'd be mildly disappointed if GW simply re-released the last version of the rules they published but I'd be really sad if they did something stupid like make a space marine gang for Necromunda.

Well... A space marine Necromunda gang (not meaning an SM gang in Necromunda itself but a gang in the underhive) could work if we use some of the stuff by Nick Kyme had a salamander fighting in gladiator pits of an underhive

I haven't read past this post... but the Fists -use- to recruit from Necromunda way back in the day..... just putting it out there.

Now I'm kinda torn on this. There are soooo many good looking newish games out there that this feels to little to late. On the other hand, if it was Space Marine (not Epic:A or Epic 40k) and Adeptus Titanicus that was re-released with forgeworld doing the leg work on the rules and the models..... I don't know what to think.

I admit I would be torn on it, I would some how justify it to myself that I'm not buying from GW but from FW. I know it's weak sauce.

I have no problem buying second hand models from people as I would rather help someone else out then GW themselves, but, honestly, release those two games updated and I would buy the rules just to see whats up.

Not to mention phanta claws was left on Necromunda by Dorn.

 Lockark wrote:
If their is any game a new Necromunda would compete with, it's not judge dread it is Infinity. Infinity is just played more consistently and supported more consistently across many FLGS. I also feel it's safe to say infinity will be a better game then what ever GW puts out.


But Necromuda will still do realy well. Why? Because Necromunda is still a very strong IP.

Dreadzone maybe? or Malifaux? Dark age? But i don't know if those games have an EXP. advancement mechanic

 Lockark wrote:
Infinity is just played more consistently and supported more consistently across many FLGS...

Than a game that hasn't been around in a decade of more? Well, sure, but I don't think that means much.

 Lockark wrote:
But Necromuda will still do realy well. Why? Because Necromunda is still a very strong IP.

And it was a great game.

Rihgu wrote:
Well, let's say it costs 10,000$ to design & produce a 10 man plastic kit (10 kabalite warriors or 10 Cawdor gangers). Now let's say that the projected demand of kabalite warriors is 5000 kits and the projected demand of the Cawdor gangers is 1000 kits. It would be reasonable (in my mind, at least) for the company producing these kits to price kabalite warriors at 30$ a box and Cawdor gangers at 50$ a kit.

If you increase the price by 66% you're not still going to sell 1000 kits. When your costs are mainly in development and not in production, you should not be willingly putting yourself into that death spiral of trying to jack up your prices to make up for how much jacking up the price is driving down your sales.

So all snark aside I still have a few issues with this.

1. Does this mean that GW have renewed there licence with NL for lotr/hobbit?

2. If the answer to 1 is yes does this likely mean they will still be a minimum requirement to release models for these dead games?

3. Will FW be at least doubled in size and given an unlimited budget to increase there glacial pace?

4. If the answer to 3 is no how are FW going to have time to produce all the new stuff people are getting excited about? It has been 4 years since the last real IA book and I am not sure how long since they released a non HH model or a xenos model? They are 100% focused on HH.

Sorry but Rihgu is correct. Business is what I went to school for and do for a living. It all comes down to supply and demand. A smaller production run will end with higher cost and higher retail. A large product run is rewarded with lower cost all around.

This is why a single plastic terminator character is near $30 while a high production set of 5 is about $50.

Specialist games are usually priced higher because there is less demand (thus the specialist label). However... I am not defending gws pricing model. I believe they charge too much for what they provide (yet I buy their product, damn plastic crack). Gw has been looking for their price ceiling, which is the most they can charge before a massive sales drop. Technically smart business if you are a publicly traded company. Poor business if you are in a flooded market (which is why you are seeing a plethora of new games hitting the market).

 455_PWR wrote:
Gw has been looking for their price ceiling,

...and apparently they're a brontosaurus standing at the bottom of a crater inside the SuperDome.

But bringing back the SGs really is, as we've seen by the overwhelmingly positive response (with a couple of vocal exceptions), an opportunity -- perhaps the last, best opportunity -- for this company to restore its image and rebuild its connection with an entire generation of gamers. On the other hand, if they bring back these beloved games but at ridiculous price points and/or with craptacular rules that are the equivalent of a spit in the eye and a knee to the nuts, that could very well be the final blow. It would be not only a farewell "piss-off" to that generation, but also "and you kids, too" for the younger ones, as well.

So I'm really hoping they get this right. It might be their last chance.

 455_PWR wrote:
Sorry but Rihgu is correct. Business is what I went to school for and do for a living. It all comes down to supply and demand. A smaller production run will end with higher cost and higher retail. A large product run is rewarded with lower cost all around.

This is why a single plastic terminator character is near $30 while a high production set of 5 is about $50.

It all just comes down to the basic design of the basic / elite / unique hero battleforce scheme that GW uses for its force org. Because there is no game reason to own two of a character you can only ever field one of, most people will only ever buy one, and will never want, say, 30 or 60. But it's not like the designer wants to make 1/50 the amount of money as the guy making a Windrider, right? If it was normal to have 30 Karlaen models, I'm sure there could be a super duper price for him

The other thing is that the expensive plastic clampack heroes in the GW universe are usually made with a lot more pieces than basic troops, though usually few loadout options, because the characters themselves have relics which are tied to them (eg Karlaen always has his thunder hammer, so why give him the possibility of a power sword?). Because there's only *one* in your army, monopose isn't as big a deal. Again, if you needed 30 Karlaens, it would look ridiculous to have them all clones of each other, and in that case, the manufacturer would either make them posable, or make multiple similar models in different poses (like PP does).

The great thing about 40k space marines, though, is that if you don't want to blow $30 on a character or you just don't like the original model, there are tons and tons of bits from other kits that will allow you to make a reasonable facsimile -- sometimes a superior model -- to the character's original model. And, the game ecosystem both supports and encourages that kind of modelling.

On the topic of Specialist Studio, I would be so happy if there were multipart/posable/craftable BloodBowl bits

 Breotan wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If Newpic has the best 6mm minis made of all time it won't matter if a squadron of Land Raiders cost its (literal) weight in gold.

This was an issue with the last version of Epic, too. One of the models, the metal Thunderhawk Transporter was so effing expensive for misshapen bar of "not-lead" that people in AMERICA began spincasting copies. Not Russia, not China, but America. Seriously, you have got to be pricing out past Saturn's orbit if recasting by Americas can be profitable. And we're not even talking about the nicer looking FW version, either. And GW wondered why it didn't sell well.

That was probably the Landing Craft which was extremely expensive (IIRC £45 for something approximately the size of a Terminator).

The price isn't necessarily my greatest worry, it will be excessive, the rules are. GW just can't write good rules anymore and the SGs need nothing more than light tweeking, there is a real danger that GW will force 'forging the narrative' style mechanics into the games and turn them into the horrific mess that is 40K.

Incidentally a Marine gang in Necromunda would kill the game stone dead for many veterans. It would make no sense from a fluff perspective and it would completely destroy any semblance of balance.

 455_PWR wrote:
This is why a single plastic terminator character is near $30 while a high production set of 5 is about $50.

That and Australia's minimum wage.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
Incidentally a Marine gang in Necromunda would kill the game stone dead for many veterans. It would make no sense from a fluff perspective and it would completely destroy any semblance of balance.

We once tried it with a squad of Marine Scouts. They were very dangerous!

455_PWR wrote:Specialist games are usually priced higher because there is less demand (thus the specialist label). However... I am not defending gws pricing model. I believe they charge too much for what they provide (yet I buy their product, damn plastic crack). Gw has been looking for their price ceiling, which is the most they can charge before a massive sales drop. Technically smart business if you are a publicly traded company. Poor business if you are in a flooded market (which is why you are seeing a plethora of new games hitting the market).

Everything is priced higher. Literally every release succeeding the next. This despite the market having been 'flooded' for some time now. Pricing is going to break them. Ultimately alexholker is right, there is no production reason for one kit to be priced higher than a similar kit. Part of gw's supply and demand problems is they're trying to be a boutique company selling mass produced/producable items.

Talys wrote:

 455_PWR wrote:
Sorry but Rihgu is correct. Business is what I went to school for and do for a living. It all comes down to supply and demand. A smaller production run will end with higher cost and higher retail. A large product run is rewarded with lower cost all around.

This is why a single plastic terminator character is near $30 while a high production set of 5 is about $50.

The great thing about 40k space marines, though, is that if you don't want to blow $30 on a character or you just don't like the original model, there are tons and tons of bits from other kits that will allow you to make a reasonable facsimile -- sometimes a superior model -- to the character's original model. And, the game ecosystem both supports and encourages that kind of modelling.

Except doing that is likely to cost you more (potentially significantly more) than the $30 character by themself.

If it was me at GW I'd actually see the price point for Bloodbowl alternatives as a real advantage; given their current pricing (e.g. BaC at £95 for 38 models) I could see them doing Bloodbowl teams for £40-£50, easily undercutting a lot of the third party stuff. That would get them straight back in the market, even without the "official" status, likely high quality of sculpts and possibility of plastic over resin or metal.

The way they pack their sprues these days I could see them fitting a full 16-man team on a single sprue.

I also wonder whether they'll take the opportunity to reinvent some of these properties, rather than just re-release. For example Inquisitor at 28mm scale is really a no-brainer, as it then works as a 40k tie-in, also could be combined with Necromunda (as many have done)

I think no matter how much you like/dislike GW as a moral entity, you can't deny the quality of the physical products even if you baulk at the price.
This new studio can only be a good thing for the hobby in general.
Because if you're still playing the fan-maintained versions of these games, congrats - new mini support.
If you've never played any of these games - you've now got more systems to choose from.
If you have no intention of playing these games at all, chances are you play a game that uses a similar style of mini and so your range just expanded.

I think it's also important to note that this is the first time in a decade at least that GW have openly publicised their direction beyond the next couple of weeks; possible indicator of a change in practice?
Time will tell, I guess.

This is great news. I still have the BFG rulebook and expansions but no models. This will make it 1000x easier and probably cheaper to build up some fleets. Especially if they look at other games and do battle group sets like other systems.

 Jadenim wrote:
If it was me at GW I'd actually see the price point for Bloodbowl alternatives as a real advantage; given their current pricing (e.g. BaC at £95 for 38 models) I could see them doing Bloodbowl teams for £40-£50, easily undercutting a lot of the third party stuff.

That's still twice as expensive as Impact's Trollcast teams, so that would be a "why bother?" sort of price.

Just hoping he's has been working on more Escher models since doing the dark eldar

I recall, from YEARS ago, that there was a comment from Forgeworld that they could basically either produce Epic, or produce Horus Hersey. And Heresy just made more money.

Now HH has been, to an extent, taken in by main GW. This will free up Forgeworld to do other things. Could this be the main reason for the SG revival? Forgeworld have likely always wanted to do it, but been too busy sculpting Yet Another MKIV Marine.

Don't you mean yer another Contemptor?

 Graphite wrote:
I recall, from YEARS ago, that there was a comment from Forgeworld that they could basically either produce Epic, or produce Horus Hersey. And Heresy just made more money.

Now HH has been, to an extent, taken in by main GW. This will free up Forgeworld to do other things. Could this be the main reason for the SG revival? Forgeworld have likely always wanted to do it, but been too busy sculpting Yet Another MKIV Marine.

You've got it the wrong way round - Forgeworld is being expanded into this Specialist Design Studio. My own thought its they were doing so well with Heresy and raking in the cash that they've been given much more freedom to run experiments and produce non-core stuff, hence the new studio. They'll still be producing the Horus Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

That was probably the Landing Craft which was extremely expensive (IIRC £45 for something approximately the size of a Terminator).

It's a lot bigger than a Terminator. Probably closer to a Land Speeder than anything. Price was eye watering though...

 zedmeister wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
I recall, from YEARS ago, that there was a comment from Forgeworld that they could basically either produce Epic, or produce Horus Hersey. And Heresy just made more money.

Now HH has been, to an extent, taken in by main GW. This will free up Forgeworld to do other things. Could this be the main reason for the SG revival? Forgeworld have likely always wanted to do it, but been too busy sculpting Yet Another MKIV Marine.

You've got it the wrong way round - Forgeworld is being expanded into this Specialist Design Studio. My own thought its they were doing so well with Heresy and raking in the cash that they've been given much more freedom to run experiments and produce non-core stuff, hence the new studio. They'll still be producing the Horus Heresy.

I don't believe Forgeworld are getting this as a reward for "Being good". I really expect a lot of the Horus Heresy model design to shift over to GW main, with a lot of plastic, and Forgeworld's HH output dropping dramatically - maybe not in book terms, but likely in model terms. The shear amount of time they'll save not having to cast that many basic troopers should be immense. So I suspect that this will be to fill the "gap".

Having said that - if this is true, and works out how we hope it does, it may be the only genuinely sensible decision GW have made in about a decade.

 foostick wrote:
http://trolls.myshopify.com/collections/6mm-warfare

Trolls Under the Bridge hit with a cease and desist for their 6mm stuff. They did historical and sci-if I think, just saw it on Yakromunda, apologies if it's been posted.

The problem with Trolls is that they made exact copies of Imperial Guard vehicles, they are still available on Ebay though.

 Graphite wrote:

I don't believe Forgeworld are getting this as a reward for "Being good". I really expect a lot of the Horus Heresy model design to shift over to GW main, with a lot of plastic, and Forgeworld's HH output dropping dramatically - maybe not in book terms, but likely in model terms. The shear amount of time they'll save not having to cast that many basic troopers should be immense. So I suspect that this will be to fill the "gap".

Having said that - if this is true, and works out how we hope it does, it may be the only genuinely sensible decision GW have made in about a decade.

Suggest you re-read some of the Rumours and posts being made, esepcially by Hastings and Atia. Horus Heresy is staying where it is and the FW studio is being expanded to include LoTR and old as well as new games and products as well as being given access to do plastics production

Post in question: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?414985-Specialist-Games-quot-Reboot-quot&p=7566132&viewfull=1#post7566132

methebest wrote:
Skipped the last 8 pages so idk if this has come up.

So i spoke with my local manager today, he got the memo, trouble is it says they will be looking into bringing back the older games.(as well as making new ones)

So someone could decide they are not viable and we wont see them again.

Viability depends on a number of factors. Space Hulk 3rd edition was a huge success because the original game had great heritage. GW knew how many they had sold between 1986 and 1998 or whatever its lifespan was. They must have estimated pretty well how many copies they could sell of a new edition, and specced and budgeted it really well.

Space Hulk was a triumph all round. It was a smash success for GW and satisfied players with good rules and great models.

I don't see why GW cannot pull that off with several of the other old SGs. Some of them also present the possibility of good expansion sets. A starter box of Blood Bowl containing Humans versus Orcs would open the gates for producing boxed sets of Elves, Dwarves and so on. A better approach would be to sell a starter set containing the rules and terrain, to be bought alongside one or more boxed sets of teams, and have six different teams available from the start.

What I think thye need to avoid is the idea that every SG can be infinitely extended as a selling line. There is a point at which a game is done and trying to go beyond that brings reducing returns. This is what happened to WHFB and is happening to 40K, I believe.

To summarise, GW have the opportunity and need to fill their massive retail chain that accounts for 2/3rds of company turnover with a variety of games.

They have a back catalogue that can be re-organised and brought up to date with revised rules and new plastic models.

They ought to be able to design some new games as well, without them being crap. If they want to set these within the recognised WH/40K universes, that's fine as long as the rules and figures are good. What they don't want to do is try and milk things beyind their natural life.

Returning again to Space Hulk. First edition was great. Death Wing was a good supplement. The next supplement was a bit crap. The next edition was worse still. It all turned into gak because GW tried to milk it too far, and players gave it up.

Scroll on 15 years and GW were able to launch a completely rejuvenated 3rd edition and had the sense not to try and milk it with endless bits of supplements intended to sell more figures.

Also Hastings pointed out that Calth was already written by the people from whom Neo Specialist Games will be formed. Having access to plastic production capabilities for Standalone Games or even miniature boxes afterwards is what the new team has as a plus over general FW releases. If stuff sells well there is probably no limit to what they can produce.

Adeptus Titanicus with plastic Warlord Titans produced with todays tech? Great, but why limit it to that? With the amount of sprues Betrayal of Calth has, there would be place for entire Titan Legions including Imperator, Warhound and Reaver titans among an entire Knight Household - all with lots of variation.

Back in 1997 the atrocious pricing of Epic's 3rd Ed metal models (5 Shadowswords were as expensive as a plastic 40k Leman Russ kit) killed it within a few months in my area. No one was willing to pay that much for these tiny models. Everyone continued buying 40k instead.

But in plastic Epic can excel when offered in large and cheap amounts. Selling two Titan Legions who fight each other in a standalone box would sell like hotcake. Throw in some cardboard buildings and a good ruleset and people would buy it for sure. One of the big advantages of Epic 1st and 2nd edition was that you could build those large armies for a lot cheaper than in 40k. And it sold because of this. In 3rd ed they did the opposite and it tanked - well and the rules of course were not what the majority of players wanted. But if the miniatures were more affordable people would have bought them anyway.

Carboard buildings?

Yeah let's talk about terrain.

Mordheim, Necromunda and to a lesser extent Epic all had cardboard buildings. That was a different time though. Printing that sort of stuff now is hella expensive, and GW does it overseas.

Would they do this sort of thing again?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Carboard buildings?

Yeah let's talk about terrain.

Mordheim, Necromunda and to a lesser extent Epic all had cardboard builds. That was a different time though. Printing that sort of stuff now is hella expensive, and GW does it overseas.

Would they do this sort of thing again?

Epic had those plastic ruins from 3rd onward. Necromunda needs terrain and I doubt they'd miss the opportunity to do it in plastic (and flog it to the 40k and 30k as a bonus!)

Warhams-77, zedmeister - Thanks, missed some of those rumours in the avalanche. Interesting. Though I'll have to disagree about 3rd edition Epic - Epic Armageddon was, and is, awesome.

Cardboard terrain? Could be, but I'd say plastic is more likely. They have been putting out the cardboard with Space Hulk and Calth, after all. Blood Bowl almost requires cardboard as it's difficult to see how a plastic pitch would be as good (unless they go the astrogranite route!)