Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Elemental wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Skaven can be easily brought to rein with a few, minor tweaks. Same for Shadow Warriors, before you even consider bringing them up. Also, a single scenario victory for the underdog can change things drastically in the financial side.

That's the Oberoni Fallacy in action--being able to houserule problems is good, but it doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in the first place, or that it doesn't reflect poorly on the rules as written. I notice you didn't even try to defend armour being a giant noobtrap, as I found out the hard way.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Also, considering that you're in a wargaming forum, basing your reasoning that a game is bad just because you can get shafted by dice is... well, I don't know how to put it. Besides, you can't lose ALL your heroes in a single turn of dice roll if you know how to play, since learning how to protect your heroes is basic Mordheim tactics. Learning when to quit the field, too. Forced routing is your friend.

Good old "lrn2play n00b". I don't think I'll post a battle report, because it was a few years ago, and you'd probably just nitpick it until you could bend it into your narrative of me being a scrub. But if "expendable dude ahead of him, behind cover" doesn't count as protecting heroes, no idea what to tell you. I usually voluntarily routed as soon as the cascade started--because a game should reward actually playing the game as little as possible, I guess?

And sorry to derail your lecture, but I'm not talking about dice rolled in the game where I make actual decisions, I'm talking about the post-game, which is just as bad in Necromunda. Wow, I really trounced those guys--oh wait, someone died and I got bad rolls on the income, turns out my opponent finished ahead of me due to pure luck.

It's worked the other way too--in a later Necromunda campaign, I got through two games (average performance in the games themselves) with no injuries, got some good rolls to get new juves, and rolled a double-xp game. After that, I was pretty much top of the heap, purely down to my superior post-game dice rolling.

Oh noes! This game does not follow the same conventions as its parent, thus it must be crap because I didn't automatically succeed in it! How dare they publish such unbalanced crap!!

As I said - and you'd have noticed if you had read what I wrote - You only LOSE your entire group of heroes post game if you don't know how to protect them in the game. If you DO know how to protect they won't ALL be taken out of action in the same match, and thus they won't all be killed by those dastardly naughty dice! But hey, play it as you wish - if you want to risk all your resource-producing units at the same time in a match while having full knowledge that you are taking part of a long term campaign... be my guest.

I never found anything in the basic Necromunda or Mordheim games or indeed the campaigns systems that I would call unbalanced. In the extra bits added on afterwards yes but not just the standard games rules (one word: Elves!).

Skaven slings were a bit much true, as was bow/handgun spam. Anyone choosing dual wielded spears gets hit with a whipping stick.

I read recent an interview with Tuomas Pirinen recently and he said that the expensiveness of armour was intentional.

A bit of tweaking with a mind to expansion/extras and both are good to roll.

 Elemental wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
To me, that's exactly what's so great about Necromunda. A Necromunda campaign isn't a competition, it's trying to survive against the odds. A big part of that is coping with the random or unexpected, like the death of important members of your gang. The unpredictability that shapes the personal story of your gang p is what makes it fun.

I agree to a point, but one thing I noticed when getting thrashed in Mordheim and when dominating Necromunda was that those random dice rolls were often more influential than what happened in the actual game. That excessive luck dependence is what I'm objecting to, and what I want to see fixed. Heck, remember the "outlaw" rules from the Necromunda supplement where you could lose all your terrain bar one if you got unlucky on just one roll?

Yeah, but that was only if your opponent had reported you to the Watchmen. Of course, we always reported each other to the Watchmen...

Then you got outlawed and had a guild price you had to pay to get back in good graces. Probably the greatest line from any GW rulebook (as I can recall it): "Of course, a real badass gang leader doesn't give a damn about paying off his Guild price anyway, and should complain loudly about how it's too low and should be five or ten times as much."

Good old Chambers.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Spoiler:

 Elemental wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Skaven can be easily brought to rein with a few, minor tweaks. Same for Shadow Warriors, before you even consider bringing them up. Also, a single scenario victory for the underdog can change things drastically in the financial side.

That's the Oberoni Fallacy in action--being able to houserule problems is good, but it doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in the first place, or that it doesn't reflect poorly on the rules as written. I notice you didn't even try to defend armour being a giant noobtrap, as I found out the hard way.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Also, considering that you're in a wargaming forum, basing your reasoning that a game is bad just because you can get shafted by dice is... well, I don't know how to put it. Besides, you can't lose ALL your heroes in a single turn of dice roll if you know how to play, since learning how to protect your heroes is basic Mordheim tactics. Learning when to quit the field, too. Forced routing is your friend.

Good old "lrn2play n00b". I don't think I'll post a battle report, because it was a few years ago, and you'd probably just nitpick it until you could bend it into your narrative of me being a scrub. But if "expendable dude ahead of him, behind cover" doesn't count as protecting heroes, no idea what to tell you. I usually voluntarily routed as soon as the cascade started--because a game should reward actually playing the game as little as possible, I guess?

And sorry to derail your lecture, but I'm not talking about dice rolled in the game where I make actual decisions, I'm talking about the post-game, which is just as bad in Necromunda. Wow, I really trounced those guys--oh wait, someone died and I got bad rolls on the income, turns out my opponent finished ahead of me due to pure luck.

It's worked the other way too--in a later Necromunda campaign, I got through two games (average performance in the games themselves) with no injuries, got some good rolls to get new juves, and rolled a double-xp game. After that, I was pretty much top of the heap, purely down to my superior post-game dice rolling.

Oh noes! This game does not follow the same conventions as its parent, thus it must be crap because I didn't automatically succeed in it! How dare they publish such unbalanced crap!!

As I said - and you'd have noticed if you had read what I wrote - You only LOSE your entire group of heroes post game if you don't know how to protect them in the game. If you DO know how to protect they won't ALL be taken out of action in the same match, and thus they won't all be killed by those dastardly naughty dice! But hey, play it as you wish - if you want to risk all your resource-producing units at the same time in a match while having full knowledge that you are taking part of a long term campaign... be my guest.

Yeah that's the risk/reward balance in Mordheim; you can use your skilled heroes to take down the enemy and go for the win but if they get isolated they're mincemeat. Vampires are an extreme example of this. That's why you have henchmen.

Injury rolls can go anywhere, i'll tell you the tales of the Necromancer that got sent to the pits and returned a one armed, one eyed gladiator!

I've never heard anyone complain about the campaign system for either Necromunda or Mordheim. Good games.

Let's not get bogged down in off-topic niggles about OOP titles.

Why not, we have months before anything substantial will be announced/released.

 notprop wrote:
Why not, we have months before anything substantial will be announced/released.

Hm so much scenery to renew and remake...

The magic items from the Emporium or whatever it's called are in need of balance. Some of those when combined with specific skills were just not cool. Also, flails.. If you spend any amount of time researching competitive Mordheim, you will see there's some beardiness layered in. Also, make sure you're running off the full rules. The main box book was supplemented by Town Cryer and Annuals. All of that was official so saying anything released in those doesn't count is missing the point of the whole conversation. It would stand to reason that if they do a re-launch vs a reboot, a lot of that will get rolled up and repackaged into a more concise volume. Either way, it all came out of the same design studio which no longer consists of those personalities (..I think.. have to verify all the names)

EDIT: Lithlandis - Escenorama and Kobblestone both have some awesome stuff. I own a bunch of the Escenemorama and it's perfect for Mordheim. They're supposed to have a sci-fi range out soon too... DZ terrain has a lot of that covered though.

 Azreal13 wrote:


So what's inherently wrong with admitting you've made a mistake and trying to put it right?

Hubris has been the hallmark of modern GW, and even a tiny hint that they're over that and prepared to move forward is cause for optimism.

Agreed. The company has made enough bad moves that I could write a small book on them, so I'm not going to complain or be cynical when they start making some good ones.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Let's not get bogged down in off-topic niggles about OOP titles.

Wait.. this is about the return of OOP titles.. do you mean we can't talk about the old games that are coming back (potentially) or other OOP games? I'm not trying to be smart but that's a pretty broad restriction on the conversation given the nature of the topic :(

Mordheim Rule #1: Beardy gets the whippy stick.
Mordheim Rule #2: ReallyBeardyWeirdy gets both whippy sticks.

GWs technical advancement in plastic whippy sticks since Mordheim came out has increased massively. Beardlings are as flabby and soft as they have always been. Ergo the rules are more effective!

 MLaw wrote:

EDIT: Lithlandis - Escenorama and Kobblestone both have some awesome stuff. I own a bunch of the Escenemorama and it's perfect for Mordheim. They're supposed to have a sci-fi range out soon too... DZ terrain has a lot of that covered though.

My wallet now officially hates you!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:
Mordheim Rule #1: Beardy gets the whippy stick.
Mordheim Rule #2: ReallyBeardyWeirdy gets both whippy sticks.

GWs technical advancement in whippy sticks since it came out has increased massive. Beardlings are as flabby and soft as they have always been. Ergo the rules are more effective!

In my groups it's usually:

Players that take to beardy activites get ganked to hell by the rest. We find it much better than the Cease and Desist approach.

 MLaw wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Let's not get bogged down in off-topic niggles about OOP titles.

Wait.. this is about the return of OOP titles.. do you mean we can't talk about the old games that are coming back (potentially) or other OOP games? I'm not trying to be smart but that's a pretty broad restriction on the conversation given the nature of the topic :(

MLaw, just to clarify, KK is saying let's not get deep into the minutiae of any particular OOP game here - this is a broader discussion thread and we don't know yet where GW will be taking it.

For example, mentioning GorkaMorka and someone's favorite mission is fine, but if two posters were to start going into depth about the mechanics of that game, it's getting a bit off-topic for this N&R post.

I am really looking forward to seeing what GW does here - I think it's their best decision in a decade! They'll be late to the party on some things (I'm all about Dropfleet for my space game fix!), but it might entice me to finally play one of their games again if they were to do something like re-release Bloodbowl or the like.

 RiTides wrote:

I am really looking forward to seeing what GW does here - I think it's their best decision in a decade! They'll be late to the party on some things (I'm all about Dropfleet for my space game fix!), but it might entice me to finally play one of their games again if they were to do something like re-release Bloodbowl or the like.

I can already see the money flowing to GW if they make a 30k BFG game. It's not even funny.

 RiTides wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Let's not get bogged down in off-topic niggles about OOP titles.

Wait.. this is about the return of OOP titles.. do you mean we can't talk about the old games that are coming back (potentially) or other OOP games? I'm not trying to be smart but that's a pretty broad restriction on the conversation given the nature of the topic :(

MLaw, just to clarify, KK is saying let's not get deep into the minutiae of any particular OOP game here - this is a broader discussion thread and we don't know yet where GW will be taking it.

For example, mentioning GorkaMorka and someone's favorite mission is fine, but if two posters were to start going into depth about the mechanics of that game, it's getting a bit off-topic for this N&R post.

I am really looking forward to seeing what GW does here - I think it's their best decision in a decade! They'll be late to the party on some things (I'm all about Dropfleet for my space game fix!), but it might entice me to finally play one of their games again if they were to do something like re-release Bloodbowl or the like.

Ah, ok. That makes sense. It is interesting to think about how people's alternative games will play into these releases. For example.. will Deadzone players come flocking to Necromunda, play both fields, or just give GW the cold shoulder? How will the massive surge of 15mm gaming effect a Epic: Armageddon release? Many of the 15mm retailers sell for prices GW would never even consider. Is the space battle genre saturated to the point of locking out BFG?

I'm also curious if things like Kill Team, City Fight, or the old Bommerz ovur Sulfur Rivur (spelling?) game might be considered for updating here as releases? (The Bommerz game I'm mentioning was an old pre-Aeronautica game that was essentially an dogfight type game between Ork and Imperials).

Too little too late I'm afraid. Some of us sold our fleets, epic armies, BB teams and other items back when it became apparent that GW didnt care about specialist games. We're not going to buy back in and hope that GW doesnt change their mind again about specialist games and dump them in 5 years.

This isnt the 1990's anymore. There are hosts of sold games out there that company's treat their fans much better and support more. Hell, some of my old friends have dusted off their warhammer armies and have tried them out in Kings of War. Its surprising how much fun things can be when a comapny actually supports your ways of playing.

Job adverts for the new division are up

http://jobs.games-workshop.com/current-vacancies/



Specialist Brands Product Manager: Nottingham, UK

Do you want to be responsible for designing and developing an exciting new range specialist games and models including reimagining some of the old favourites such as Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic and Adeptus Titanicus? Are you driven to produce the highest quality products that always deliver the maximum value? [...]


Middle Earth Product Manager: Nottingham, UK

Do you want to be responsible for designing and developing our exciting range of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit products including models and books? Are you driven to produce the highest quality products that always deliver the maximum value? [...].


Specialist Brands Writer: Nottingham, UK

Do you want to generate and interpret ideas into interesting and engaging written material that will become part of new Specialist Brands products? Are you excited by the opportunity to develop an idea from concept to a finished publishable product in a creative and collaborative environment? [...]


Specialist Brands Model Designer: Nottingham, UK

Do you want to create fantastic models that will be turned into new Specialist Brands products? Are you excited by the opportunity to develop an idea from concept to finished product in a creative and collaborative environment? [...].


Middle Earth Writer: Nottingham, UK

Do you want to generate and interpret ideas into interesting and engaging written material that will become part of Middle Earth products? Are you excited by the opportunity to develop an idea from concept to a finished publishable product in a creative and collaborative environment? [...].


Middle Earth Model Designer: Nottingham, UK

Do you want to create Fantastic models that will be turned into new Middle Earth products? Are you excited by the opportunity to develop an idea from concept to finished product in a creative and collaborative environment? [...]


thanks to wesadie1969 on BoW who spotted them. It does seem to suggest GW has re-upped for a Tolkein licence of some sort (wonder if they're going back to the older LoTR one which might be cheaper and more flexible? and not keep them lumbered with the slightly ropey hobbit movie designs)

carmachu wrote:
Too little too late I'm afraid. Some of us sold our fleets, epic armies, BB teams and other items back when it became apparent that GW didnt care about specialist games. We're not going to buy back in and hope that GW doesnt change their mind again about specialist games and dump them in 5 years.

This isnt the 1990's anymore. There are hosts of sold games out there that company's treat their fans much better and support more. Hell, some of my old friends have dusted off their warhammer armies and have tried them out in Kings of War. Its surprising how much fun things can be when a comapny actually supports your ways of playing.

I appreciate what you're saying, but at this point in time, this is me...

carmachu wrote:
Too little too late I'm afraid. Some of us sold our fleets, epic armies, BB teams and other items back when it became apparent that GW didnt care about specialist games.

Yes, you sold them. But that means someone else bought them...

Popping into a GW thread just to say "I don't care" seems to be all the rage these days on Dakka, eh?

Bonus points for plugging an indie company as an alternative.

As far as the idea of supporting SGs through BaC style releases is neat, but requires a number of factors to work that BaC doesn't care about, because it comes on top of a massive range of existing products.

Releasing a two gang Necromunda redux is not going to work the same way. In fact, I would say it would be much better if the new studio would come out with all resin ranges for the revived games before reinforcing the successful ones with plastic boxes.

I absolutely can't wait to see a redone Necromunda(although I'm biased as it's still my core game I play, and haven't played 40k in a few years now). I'd love it if they tied in the Ash Wastes stuff as well. Hopefully there will be a substantial campaign system that allows for different environments and vehicles to facilitate this.

I think they could stand to add a few new factions as well. An expanded scope on the world could be really, really cool and allow for some amazing campaigns.

carmachu wrote:
Too little too late I'm afraid. Some of us sold our fleets, epic armies, BB teams and other items back when it became apparent that GW didnt care about specialist games. We're not going to buy back in and hope that GW doesnt change their mind again about specialist games and dump them in 5 years.

This isnt the 1990's anymore. There are hosts of sold games out there that company's treat their fans much better and support more. Hell, some of my old friends have dusted off their warhammer armies and have tried them out in Kings of War. Its surprising how much fun things can be when a comapny actually supports your ways of playing.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
removed needless trolling..

As far as the idea of supporting SGs through BaC style releases is neat, but requires a number of factors to work that BaC doesn't care about, because it comes on top of a massive range of existing products.

Releasing a two gang Necromunda redux is not going to work the same way. In fact, I would say it would be much better if the new studio would come out with all resin ranges for the revived games before reinforcing the successful ones with plastic boxes.

Not sure what BaC means..
I did mention in my idea that after the initial release, the individual gangs could be done as standalone boxed sets. I did not mention any of those sets being plastic (though it seems like a direction to go). Is the HH $150 box plastic or resin or both? As to GW resin.. uh.. yeah.. didn't they try that already? Considering GW's heroes that would've been metal or resin are AFAIK being done as plastics now? One of the few things I've bought from them over the last I dunno how long was a Chaos Sorceror, who to my surprise was a plastic kit for a resin price tag.

 Azreal13 wrote:

carmachu wrote:
Too little too late I'm afraid. Some of us sold our fleets, epic armies, BB teams and other items back when it became apparent that GW didnt care about specialist games. We're not going to buy back in and hope that GW doesnt change their mind again about specialist games and dump them in 5 years.

This isnt the 1990's anymore. There are hosts of sold games out there that company's treat their fans much better and support more. Hell, some of my old friends have dusted off their warhammer armies and have tried them out in Kings of War. Its surprising how much fun things can be when a comapny actually supports your ways of playing.

I appreciate what you're saying, but at this point in time, this is me...

Spoiler:

I can see both points of view, but love the visual . I'm also very optimistic about this (although cautiously so). It seems like it could be a very good thing, and having their own little creative bubble at GW where they won't be mired in the decision-making that has resulted in AoS and destruction of army organization in 40K, etc, is the best possible outcome for these games! They could still mess it up, but I'm willing to see where it goes

The only way I see this as going down poorly is if Roundtree is removed.

He's apparently been pushing for a dramatic shake-up, and we've been seeing a lot of the effects with the boxed "bundles" that have come out of late with savings built-in.

The bundle boxes are a cunning way of allowing players to buy the same amount of figures for less money without offering cheaper prices. Because there is a perceived extra value, the player is more likely to spend more than he would have otherwise. It also can be a good way of clearing old inventory.

 RiTides wrote:

I can see both points of view, but love the visual . I'm also very optimistic about this (although cautiously so). It seems like it could be a very good thing, and having their own little creative bubble at GW where they won't be mired in the decision-making that has resulted in AoS and destruction of army organization in 40K, etc, is the best possible outcome for these games! They could still mess it up, but I'm willing to see where it goes

I'm just curious if they'll screw it up at the level of the FLGS peg. In a world of $30+ monopose single space marine figures, I'm guessing a tiny sprue of two plastic epic rhinos will probably run close to that.

Myself, I am just excited by finally having the chance to finish off my Imperial fleet, construct a Chaos fleet to match it and maybe make a Tau one too, get my old Necromunda stuff dusted off and finally get some more Mordhiem games going in the local area, hell if they become store legal I may even re-enter GW!
And Epic! I have a small SM force (I was given it) which I cannot wait to work on (IE - purchase Imperial Guard and Titans and relegate the SM's to support roles )

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Popping into a GW thread just to say "I don't care" seems to be all the rage these days on Dakka, eh?

That's every message board everywhere. What has me ready to place people on ignore here are the tiresome explanations of deep personal grudges against a company, and preaching about how we should all have the same weird grudges too.

My approach is that I assess what a company is selling me. If it's a purchase that works for me, I buy it. If not, I don't. Either way, they get the message. Call me crazy.

In this case, the products produced by this new division will be something for me to assess at a later date.

 warboss wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

I can see both points of view, but love the visual . I'm also very optimistic about this (although cautiously so). It seems like it could be a very good thing, and having their own little creative bubble at GW where they won't be mired in the decision-making that has resulted in AoS and destruction of army organization in 40K, etc, is the best possible outcome for these games! They could still mess it up, but I'm willing to see where it goes

I'm just curious if they'll screw it up at the level of the FLGS peg. In a world of $30+ monopose single space marine figures, I'm guessing a tiny sprue of two plastic epic rhinos will probably run close to that.

The way GW has been packing sprues lately I would expect to see almost an entire Epic army on one or two sprues.

Wasn't the last version of Epic Adeptus Titanicus? I think if they brought that back it would probably have titans as more of the focus.. maybe coming with 2 full legions? I'll take 10 warhounds please!