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I was out of the hobby when these games were still supported but I've since been trying to get my mates to play Necromunda, Mordheim, BFG, BB and Epic for ages. I'm prepared to spend silly amounts of money finding original sculpts on Ebay and building appropriate terrain, but they weren't. Hence, no games. If they were reboxed and everything you need is there for one purchase I'm pretty sure I can convince them to get involved [even if I have to pay for the game!]

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Just a few question/thoughts...

It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?

I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited. OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited. If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good. It's not like GW took your rulebook and minis away when they stopped "supporting" it. It's not like other companies out there haven't carried on making suitable figures for you.

The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.

Its not hard to understand, people like these titles, people get excited about these games.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:


SGs are still played, I will be playing Necromunda later today in fact, but when GW abandoned them it became increasingly difficult to find opponents which made more people stop playing which made it harder to find opponents...

There are 2 main positives for GW reinstating SGs; a larger player base and new models. There is also a significant downside; possibly terrible 'improved' rules. I am not excited as such but I am cautiously optimistic that the best standalone games that GW ever made will be making a comeback.

A lot of people who played SGs (and this would probably have been at least 10-15 years ago remember) would still have some of their old stuff in boxes somewhere. Others would have lost or sold them but then SGs have been orphaned for a long time.

Blood Bowl is still going pretty strong. The world cup that happens every 4 years pulls in a huge crowd for a game that "not supported" and the leagues that exist are innumerable.

Think I heard getting on 1000 players signed up for the World Cup tournament that's coming up?

Although it will be interesting to see what happens when GW release a new version of the rules; probably will allow you to place as many players on the pitch as you want, and there will be plastic kit releases of BB playing Great Demons that fill up a quarter of the board spaces

The last BB WC had 912 participants not bad for a game that's been unsupported for quite some time.

The rules council (bar GW) continuing to refine the rules helps.

We had quite a number from our club attend.

 Pacific wrote:
Think I heard getting on 1000 players signed up for the World Cup tournament that's coming up?

Although it will be interesting to see what happens when GW release a new version of the rules; probably will allow you to place as many players on the pitch as you want, and there will be plastic kit releases of BB playing Great Demons that fill up a quarter of the board spaces

Surely you jest, because allowing such things would cannibalize Age of Sigmar models sales!?!?!

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Just a few question/thoughts...

It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?

I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited. OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited. If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good. It's not like GW took your rulebook and minis away when they stopped "supporting" it. It's not like other companies out there haven't carried on making suitable figures for you.

The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.

Honestly?

Its complicated.

For one, the GW company environment was different. Specialist games began as off handed support for the games, because they continued to crank them out, one or two every couple of months.

The Heyday, so to speak, before Wart, Tom Foolery, and the other mutts started up their mess. Andy Chambers,Mike McVey, Gav "the kid" Thorpe, Rick Priestley, Jervis Johnson, ( pre- company stooge) as well as legendary sculpting talent, that, even if the stuff wasn't as high as the priced standards of today, was still pretty high up there, but not to the outlandish range that it is today, so you could at least get a deal for the buck. ( 20 guys is a 15.00 set, sort of deals, plus the free give-away and other odds and ends... Campaigns, every couple of months, mini games, etc...)

I'd say that your post lacks in the context of those times. and gamers were more inclined to scratch build, kit-bash, and availability of bits was pretty much without question. The timeline escapes me, but I can say that we had a VAST array of support from the designers, and not to mention the company itself, which did not have the confrontational relationship with fans that it has today.

Support was a given, as well. You could call them up, drop into the local game store, GW store, or what have you, and you'd be able to game without getting shilled.
The Support system from the company was pretty good, from White Dwarf, with its almost every month FREE supplemental, figure, building, etc, to Fanatic Magazine and Fanatic Online, where you could download additional rules, scenery options, ideas, fan written supplemental material for the games, Citadel Journal for serious gaming discussions, kit-bashing ideas, discussions off the water cooler, and general fellowship in magazine form.

Most of us knew that the games were pretty much one offs, but they were gateway games to- 40K and fantasy. You could use the figures, add a few more and bam- there was another squad to supplement your army.

For the record, I have all of the first edition figures for the Necromunda game, sans the special issue figures. I have a number of Mordhiem gangs, a few regimented box sets that were converted over for the Pirate/ Lustria campaign, and the Deathwing figures for their second coming Space Hulk event.
THEN, we can go on and start talking about the RT events, the yearly summer campaigns, the special events, the outright fun that came with those times...

When you see them outright forcing this new crazy stuff today? Yeah, then it was pretty much gold plated and people WANTED it. it might have some rose colored glasses look to it, but there is a heck of a difference in the culture of this company then there is today.

THIS new incarnation of SG? I'll wait and see if they don't crap on it like they have with every other reverse Midas touch they have to the games that were their one time earners.

I hope that gives a little insight.

 Pacific wrote:
Think I heard getting on 1000 players signed up for the World Cup tournament that's coming up?

Although it will be interesting to see what happens when GW release a new version of the rules; probably will allow you to place as many players on the pitch as you want, and there will be plastic kit releases of BB playing Great Demons that fill up a quarter of the board spaces

And if you want to play with your existing teams, you'll have to do things like actually cheer at the game table with paper towel pom poms to access your special rules. The brand new Sigmarine Saviors team will of course not have to.

Nearly 1000 players? That is mental. Shows how the community can keep a game alive if enough people are interested and have the desire. I guess that is why we see so many fantasy football teams offered by miniature producers and Kickstarters.

Any Kerrunch tournaments planned?

 Gimgamgoo wrote:


The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.

I don't think that is accurate at all. It's more of an issue of if no one is or more importantly can buy it then people stop playing. There will always be player fatigue so some folks will stop playing if a game never gets expansions or new editions but boredom in doing the same thing over and over is natural. What kills a game by definition is the inability to easily get product like when it goes OOP. You'll always have player turnover but the lack of new players because they literally can't get into the game themselves is the bigger issue. You may have a nice collection but being unable to use it reduces both its potential and actual value in most cases... so people sell them once they go oop. I buy/build/paint to PLAY. While I enjoy the hobby aspects, they're ultimately a means to an end.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.

My brutha from anutha mutha.

Personally I think the culture of expecting GW to lay on the official triple-stamped minis, constant stream of 'stuff to buy', gaming opportunities, and everything barring the building and painting, is a bit too ingrained at this point. Even to the point that a game 'needing' a constant stream of stuff to buy is not seen or examined as a weird thing, or seen as less alien than gamers themselves providing, organising and hosting games. I don't know if it's helped by the handful of big-box imitators, or the kickstarter preorder hype machine. For some gamers the biggest example of taking control of their hobby seems to be the decision of who they split a pair of starter sets with... or how much they sell the KS extras for.

In the SG player base, there were people who understood that wargaming is not just waiting for companies to drop stuff in their lap (for a price), and people who enjoyed the games too much to simply abandon them, who came to understand that by necessity. So you get fans who not only actively promote and showcase their favoured games, just for the chance of playing them, but maintain the free-download living rulebooks that GW eventually purged from their site (back when even eighth ed was a baleful, murky glow in Tom Kirby's eye), and even slllooowlly build up a range of proxy minis.

But their numbers, compared with the GW market - even the ex-GW market - looking for an official box set? Not huge.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Just a few question/thoughts...

It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?

For the old SGs I like to play a gang/mob/warband is only used for one campaign. After that they go on the shelf, for the most part.

The reason for this being that unlike 40K there is progression. The models aren't static chess pieces - they're altered over the course of the campaign to reflect their new equipment and the style of the mob/gang/warband.

Currently I have two Necromunda gangs - Escher and counts-as Orlocks. I'd quite like to field some of the others but getting hold of the minis to do so is a nightmare. Similarly I have Skaven and Reiklanders for Mordheim. I'd like to field some other factions there too but good luck with getting the original models for that!

I could use any old tokens to play these games but without the minis it's nowhere near as engaging.

In answer to your second question regarding the rules of the older games - I have the rules but there's no guarantee that other gamers I meet will. Availability is spotty at best and there's some serious fragmentation to boot. Having a definitive current edition available enhances the likelihood that we're working from the same base.

Of course, the new rules might be junk...

 Flamekebab wrote:
For the old SGs I like to play a gang/mob/warband is only used for one campaign. After that they go on the shelf, for the most part.

The models aren't static chess pieces - they're altered over the course of the campaign to reflect their new equipment and the style of the mob/gang/warband.

To be honest I always thought this was a failing of the SG gang games. Chopping up your meticulously assembled and painted minis after each game is one thing, but where do all the extra equipment bits come from?

I'd like to field some other factions there too but good luck with getting the original models for that!

I can understand for Necromunda, but what's there in Mordheim or Gorkamorka that can't be replaced by the main GW ranges or third parties?

Availability is spotty at best

Are we still talking about the rules?

and there's some serious fragmentation to boot. Having a definitive current edition available enhances the likelihood that we're working from the same base.

Are we talking at all?

Of course, the new rules might be junk...

There'll still be someone who'll love them if that's the case. Trying to convince others that ludo-level mechanics and an encyclopedia of special rules is, like, really cool, while sales figures tumble.

And there will be someone to bemoan them.

More choice of games and figures can only be a good thing.

So until they are release try not to piss on the chips of those that are excited by this.

 notprop wrote:
And there will be someone to bemoan them.

More choice of games and figures can only be a good thing.

So until they are release try not to piss on the chips of those that are excited by this.

Gimgamgoo amd Vermis had some valid and salient points. Your reply of them "pissing on your chips" because they made polite criticisms of both GW and its customers sounds like you might have had your feelings hurt. Also, their comments about what could be negative should be just as welcome as the 20+ pages of what could be positive. It's all speculation, right?

I completely understand the skepticism and have been amazed at the number of people who bemoan what GW is doing with warhammer and 40k while simultaneously saying "of course I'll buy it anyway". I'd be amazed if GW produce anything I'd be willing to buy ever again but if this rejuvenates interest in games i always wanted to play but didnt get a chance too (like BFG and Mordheim) that's a good start.

I think the ideal thing for everyone would have been GW doing a WotSC and allowing fans to completely take control of the rules. Mordheim retroclone with full rebalancing and at cost print on demand pdf anyone? The community is definitely strong enough to take on these kinds of tasks if the threat of legal action isn't an issue.

 Vermis wrote:

 Flamekebab wrote:
For the old SGs I like to play a gang/mob/warband is only used for one campaign. After that they go on the shelf, for the most part.

I have no idea what that is supposed to convey.

 Vermis wrote:

The models aren't static chess pieces - they're altered over the course of the campaign to reflect their new equipment and the style of the mob/gang/warband.

To be honest I always thought this was a failing of the SG gang games. Chopping up your meticulously assembled and painted minis after each game is one thing, but where do all the extra equipment bits come from?

The fact that miniatures needed to be altered later in the campaign was not sprung on players a few games in - it's in there from the outset. If someone feels like changing the configuration of their 40K army they're expected to have the relevant models. If you don't like WYSIWYG then that's a different conversation entirely.

As for the extra equipment - it used to be available on sprues from GW, back in the days of mail order.

 Vermis wrote:
I can understand for Necromunda, but what's there in Mordheim or Gorkamorka that can't be replaced by the main GW ranges or third parties?

Counts-as != original models

As much as I'd love to own a third party Rebel Grot Big Lugga to the best of my knowledge such a model doesn't exist. Mordheim had a whole range of metal character models that supplemented its plastic range - again, gone.

 Vermis wrote:

Availability is spotty at best

Are we still talking about the rules?

and there's some serious fragmentation to boot. Having a definitive current edition available enhances the likelihood that we're working from the same base.

Are we talking at all?

I feel like you're winding me up. Not really called for, mate.

I'll try to explain the point I was trying to make on the rules. Both Mordheim and Necromunda currently have at least two editions each, if not more. Necromunda has the original rules, the Battles in the Underhive rules, the Community Edition, and somewhere in that lots there's also the "Living Rulebook" (which may or may not be the same as Battles in the Underhive - frankly life's too short for me to spend the time finding out ).

Mordheim has the original rulebook, I think there's a "living rulebook", there's also Corheim and other variants that are built on the core rules.

Some of those rule sets have printed copies that can be had on eBay and the like. Others are only available digitally and even then that requires a bit of digging.

All this contrasts quite starkly with a situation in which GW have a set of rules available from them directly. There's a book in the shop or an eBook online. That's the one being used and unless otherwise stated that's what one can expect to be used. That kind of unification has its pros and cons, and frankly I don't know whether I'd trust today's GW not to bungle it - but you asked us what the problems with the current situation were and I did my best to answer.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 notprop wrote:
And there will be someone to bemoan them.

More choice of games and figures can only be a good thing.

So until they are release try not to piss on the chips of those that are excited by this.

Gimgamgoo amd Vermis had some valid and salient points. Your reply of them "pissing on your chips" because they made polite criticisms of both GW and its customers sounds like you might have had your feelings hurt. Also, their comments about what could be negative should be just as welcome as the 20+ pages of what could be positive. It's all speculation, right?

Yes because generalisations, condescension and dismissing the views other posters is valid and salient.

Still those sorts of things will always find reception with some back slapping chump not quite brave enough to offer their own opinion on a top. And that, I think, is where you came in.....right?

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Just a few question/thoughts...

It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?

I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited. OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited. If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good. It's not like GW took your rulebook and minis away when they stopped "supporting" it. It's not like other companies out there haven't carried on making suitable figures for you.

The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.

I'm going to do you the courtesy of assuming that it's merely my flawed perception that makes it look like your post is so dripping with condescension you could use it to bring life to the desert when I answer your definitely-not-rhetorical-devices questions.

I am very excited for the potential of this new division. I have, at one time or another, played Mordheim, Necromunda, Epic, Inquisitor, BFG, and GorkaMorka. All of those games bar GorkaMorka are legally available online for free. As to why someone would be interested in new models/rules, lets ignore that people have been giving examples since page one and list a few for you:

*They played the games when they were young and through carelessness/theft/moving away from home have lost their rules and/or models.
*They played the games but were unable to get hold of all the factions/models/supplements they wanted before GW canned them and now cannot afford the insane ebay prices for OOP Specialist Games models.
*They found the games appealing but were doing other projects when they were available and didn't want to go to the effort of reviving an unsupported game in their local group.
*They still play the games today and are looking forward to the prospect of lots of new players joining their campaigns.
*They are excited by the possibility of seeing their favourite factions from Ye Olden Dayes rendered using modern plastic & resin tech.

Your hypothesis needs work.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Just a few question/thoughts...

It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?

I still have my BFG ships and play semi-regularly. But the thing is, I want to expand my collection, and try to recruit new players as to not play same guy every time. Can't do either if there are no miniatures in production, hence the excitement. It's not complicated at all.

So, has this made the rounds yet? If not, then I has a rumor.

Squee.

 Breotan wrote:
So, has this made the rounds yet? If not, then I has a rumor.

Yes, please! Announce these ASAP so I can plan accordingly. Here I thought 2016 was exclusively about building two more KoW armies, but Epic changes everything.

I think I might need a cold shower.

That is the cutest goddamn thing I've ever seen.

Man, Titanicus!!!!!!

Hot diggity, I would love to see some Ork Gargants at that size.

I can't wait to see an Imperator Titan in that scale!

 Azreal13 wrote:
Squee.

right?!?!

the new pattern Warlord looks amazing in Epic scale...
bring 'em on!!!

cheers
jah

OMG! I think I just peed a little.