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 scarletsquig wrote:
Will there be support for all dead games, including Warhammer?

Aw, ninjad! That was what I was about to ask. We can hope Mordheim at least. I want Nippon to come back!

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Just a few question/thoughts...

It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?

I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited. OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited. If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good. It's not like GW took your rulebook and minis away when they stopped "supporting" it. It's not like other companies out there haven't carried on making suitable figures for you.

The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.

I was 14 when necromunda came out I was a kid and didn't hang onto things I wish I had. My epic armies passed to me through kids of a teacher who didn't want them anymore. My Mordhiem is gone too. It's been 20 years basically for some of them. You don't like stuff fine . I do stop spoiling my fun.


Honestly I doubt we will see much support. Maybe pdfs and the odd Ltd edition box if we're lucky

timd wrote:
Necro terrain is pretty useless and needs to be heavily supplemented.

In Necromunda, or for use in 40K? If it's the latter, then I agree. If it's the former, then no.

timd wrote:
... too many tiny little holes that allow cheesy, cheap shots.

That's the point though, unless, again, you're talking about using Necro terrain in 40K.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited.

I'm one of those old players. I've got a big collection of BFG and various amounts of Necromunda, Mordheim and Warmaster (enough to play with in each case). I'm excited becuase its almost impossible to get new players interested in a dead game with the only minis available at "collectors" prices. This will hopefully get new blood involved in these great games which is good for everyone.

OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited.

Well, I never had a chance to play Epic, so I would not mind it they brought that back so I could start!

If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good.

There are a few people around me who still drag out their old Specialist Games every once and a while. BFG is really the only game I have enough minis to set up multiple people in, so I can only play the others with people who still have their old armies/gangs/teams.

The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it.

You do have a point. Ever hear of VOR: The Malestrom or Clan War? These were published as competition to 40K and WFB respectivly. THey were both pretty good games and I bought into both of them and their were other people at my FLGS involved too. The day each was discontinued most of the interest died instantly. I know there was an online Clan War community tying to keep that game alive for years but locally I never played another game.

Via Atia's blog

Thanks for that Warhams, I've added it to the OP!

Well, I hope the Specialist Games are sold through Core channels as well as FW's website. I have nothing in particular against FW's website, but the fulfillment end of it is lacking when compared to other retail sites, like GW's, and falls severely short of the industry gold standard, Amazon.

Putting price aside, in a perfect world, you place an order, it should leave their warehouse the same day or next morning. Regular orders should be traceable and what you pay online should include everything that needs to be paid. Anything you don't like should be returnable, with the vendor paying for that shipping. The product should also arrive relatively quickly -- within a week, with an express option to have it delivered within a couple of days.

Mostly, this is the case with GW's web store. But on FW's, you buy something, and it can take days before it's even picked, when the product is on hand, and it can take weeks to arrive in an untraceable postal package. Or it comes by UPS, and I get charged for the same taxes twice and have to fight to get one of those refunded; plus brokerage fees after the fact. And, difficult returns that I have to pay for out of pocket for shipping.

All that just amounts to, "nah, too much trouble, pass" for me, except on items I *really* want, and I don't think that would be the case for SG's, for me.

At the end of the day, for most of my hobby stuff, I far prefer to be able to look at a product and hold it in my hands to decide on whether I want to buy it or not anyhow.

@Gimgamgoo - Generally speaking, I'm excited for SGs, because a bunch of them were really awesome games and I'd love to see renewed interest / revival of them.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Via Atia's blog

The way in which that letter is signed off is reminiscent of a certain prolific poster...

I wonder if that's why Harry has been so accurate with his rumours!?

Do all CEOs address their employees after taking the happy pill or is that a GW thing?

Hrhr, Ibis No he is not. Harry was at the BOYL event at the Ansell house this year and he is not the CEO of GW

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Do all CEOs address their employees after taking the happy pill or is that a GW thing?

Well, most CEOs don't take the sad pill before addressing their employees Unless you're Stephen Elop, in which case, the company is an oil rig on fire.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Do all CEOs address their employees after taking the happy pill or is that a GW thing?

This is pretty down to earth compared to some announcements I've seen, really. Nothing special here. The whole back-slapping 'I knew 'em back inna day' thing is perhaps a bit overdone, but it's pretty standard fare to try and show some personal connection and humanize both the exec and the guy he's appointing.
At the risk of generalizing, though: this does seem to be something of an American (and perhaps British?) way to go about it, which might explain why it seems a little foreign.

Wasn't Tony Cottrell with Forge world?

migooo wrote:
Wasn't Tony Cottrell with Forge world?

Yep. So, not necessarily time for a "the business managers are going to run it and ruin everything" panic yet.

migooo wrote:
Wasn't Tony Cottrell with Forge world?

The new Specialist Games will be part of an Forge World expansion, not separate for it. They are just saying "this Forge World dude will be responsible for the Specialist Games stuff".

 Talys wrote:
Regular orders should be traceable and what you pay online should include everything that needs to be paid. Anything you don't like should be returnable, with the vendor paying for that shipping. The product should also arrive relatively quickly -- within a week, with an express option to have it delivered within a couple of days.

Mostly, this is the case with GW's web store. But on FW's, you buy something, and it can take days before it's even picked, when the product is on hand, and it can take weeks to arrive in an untraceable postal package. Or it comes by UPS, and I get charged for the same taxes twice and have to fight to get one of those refunded; plus brokerage fees after the fact. And, difficult returns that I have to pay for out of pocket for shipping.

I'm assuming here your country flair is correct and you're in Canada and having your FW orders shipped from the UK. Customs fees are never going to be paid up front. It's just not a realistic or even reasonable request. And beyond that I believe this is more an issue with your government's customs office than Forgeworld. I'm in the US and have never been charged any customs duties or brokerage fees on even my largest FW orders. The problem here as well is you're wanting international shipping within a week, and considering that not express. The issue here is this type of shipment is not cheap. Add in tracking and you're adding in more costs. Especially if you are a smaller company. Amazon has great shipping because they are a behemoth that can command cheap rate from every carrier in existence. They should never be considered the "industry standard" in that reagrds because no other company on earth can offer what they do at that price. That's why they don't have any real competitors.

I'm assuming here your country flair is correct and you're in Canada and having your FW orders shipped from the UK. Customs fees are never going to be paid up front. It's just not a realistic or even reasonable request. And beyond that I believe this is more an issue with your government's customs office than Forgeworld. I'm in the US and have never been charged any customs duties or brokerage fees on even my largest FW orders. The problem here as well is you're wanting international shipping within a week, and considering that not express. The issue here is this type of shipment is not cheap. Add in tracking and you're adding in more costs. Especially if you are a smaller company. Amazon has great shipping because they are a behemoth that can command cheap rate from every carrier in existence. They should never be considered the "industry standard" in that reagrds because no other company on earth can offer what they do at that price. That's why they don't have any real competitors.

Actually, companies paying sales taxes & duty fees on behalf of consumers overseas is fairly common so they avoid the sticker shock tax bill when the package arrives. A lot of US companies do it, especially for Canadian customers.

Well, I surprisingly just scooped up that Assassinorum Game on Amazon for like $65 and I saw some other GW stuff on there a lot more reasonable than I remember (obviously not MSRP). If these specialist games manage to end up in that category I'll be flabbergasted. I have to say.. if it weren't for this thread, I'd probably have never gone looking for that. Now, it's going to end up a Christmas present for my oldest while my youngest will be cracking open a copy of Mars Attacks

wilycoyote wrote:
You missed Battle Systems Post Apocalypse KS then? The Shanty town option was ideal for Necromunda.

Yes, the Shanty Town would work for Necromunda, but its card not plastic and plastic is what we want...

T

Necromunda, Bloodbowl and Epic returning? Awesome!!!!

 Starfarer wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Regular orders should be traceable and what you pay online should include everything that needs to be paid. Anything you don't like should be returnable, with the vendor paying for that shipping. The product should also arrive relatively quickly -- within a week, with an express option to have it delivered within a couple of days.

Mostly, this is the case with GW's web store. But on FW's, you buy something, and it can take days before it's even picked, when the product is on hand, and it can take weeks to arrive in an untraceable postal package. Or it comes by UPS, and I get charged for the same taxes twice and have to fight to get one of those refunded; plus brokerage fees after the fact. And, difficult returns that I have to pay for out of pocket for shipping.

I'm assuming here your country flair is correct and you're in Canada and having your FW orders shipped from the UK. Customs fees are never going to be paid up front. It's just not a realistic or even reasonable request. And beyond that I believe this is more an issue with your government's customs office than Forgeworld. I'm in the US and have never been charged any customs duties or brokerage fees on even my largest FW orders. The problem here as well is you're wanting international shipping within a week, and considering that not express. The issue here is this type of shipment is not cheap. Add in tracking and you're adding in more costs. Especially if you are a smaller company. Amazon has great shipping because they are a behemoth that can command cheap rate from every carrier in existence. They should never be considered the "industry standard" in that reagrds because no other company on earth can offer what they do at that price. That's why they don't have any real competitors.

I'm going to totally disagree with you. Why? Because if I buy something from GamesWorkshop.com that's web order, it will come to me from the UK, via UPS, with everything prepaid. But let's put that aside. I've made many FW orders, ranging from around $200 - $500. Guess what? The brokerage fee has been $10 from UPS for every order. And since the new web site has come up, every single order that I've placed that comes via UPS I get charged the SAME TAX twice, once by GW, and once by UPS. I can get back the double-paid tax, but it's a real hassle. 12% comes out to quite a bit when you're talking FW prices.

When Forge World ships me a "free" replacement part, guess what? I have to pay the brokerage. And the taxes! On the free part!

Yet, if it's a GW resin part from the UK, no brokerage, no double tax, no tax on replacements, etc. Essentially, problem free.

Now, let's put the actual cost part of the equation aside for a moment. I would far prefer that Forge World simply charge me, as an international customer all of the extras at the point of purchase -- however much that is -- so that when I, as the customer, receive the package, I don't have to scramble to pay the UPS guy. Or, if I'm not home, require that someone else pay it.

As another example of Amazon, being a gold standard: When I buy something from amazon.com and ship it to Canada via International Global Priority, they will charge me the correct tax, and approximately the correct shipping and handling (their estimate). I can get it from the USA to Canada in one day, if I pay about $10 more. If the actual amount comes up higher, Amazon eats it. If the actual amount comes up lower, Amazon refunds me the difference (I get like, $1.55 credited to my MasterCard, or whatever). To me, that's professional, expeditious service that makes online shopping a pleasure.

In the FW example, I would rather pay $200 for a box, and be done with it and know I will get it in X number of days, than $150, and maybe another $10 to UPS and maybe another $25 in tax -- or have it sent by post, to arrive in some random number of weeks.

Oh, one more thing on my FW customer service dissatisfaction: when I email GW, the response is extremely expeditious. If I email FW, the response is.... days? More than a week? You know it's going to be long when they tell you on the website that if you haven't heard back in a few days, to call them long distance. Which wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have to do it at 1am

Anyhow, all this is simply to reiterate: I'll buy FW stuff if it's something I really want -- an extraordinary product that will make me really happy. But I won't buy FW stuff if it's just cool and I like it regardless of the price, because it's just too much of a hassle, and the online shopping experience falls short. So, I would probably go through the hassle for a really nifty 40k model, but probably not for a reprint of Bloodbowl. :(

I can agree with Talys in this.

I do not have the Tax problem, because i live in the Netherlands (a.k.a. Holland). ut "the wait" if you need service from FW, i know that one.

There's no good reason why a company can't kno the weight of the items it is going to send, to calculate postage costs. Tax costs are based on the price of the goods (and shipping, in the UK) plus a usually standard handling fee. So any well-organised company should be able to do this.

The reason why Amazon can do this is because they have built the company on being able to do it for the convenience of customers.

Forge World however is a boutique resin model producer. But being under the umbrella of the £100+ million GW with its £4 M web site, they ought to be covered.

Mods, please don't lock me down for mentioning Chapterhouse again on this thread, because what I have to say is relevant to this discussion.

But the appointment of Andy Jones as a global business development manager should fill any GW fan with dread. The man's incompetence during the chapterhouse trial is well documented by others on that particular thread.

Yes, I do realise his remit looks as though he may not be involved with specialist games in any shape or form, but if he's responsible for boosting global sales, then Specialist games will sink quicker than the Titanic!

The CEO says in the letter that Specialist games/forgeworld will also be sold through NON-CORE Channels.

Andy Jones will be responsible for NON-CORE channels...

 Peregrine wrote:

migooo wrote:
Wasn't Tony Cottrell with Forge world?

Yep. So, not necessarily time for a "the business managers are going to run it and ruin everything" panic yet.

However when warhammer forge was set up I thought that it would get the same support as FW . Maybe there were internal problems but unless he has a bit of freedom in this I really only see token stuff if it is FW doing this.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


So do they still have the absolutely stupid "if you forget to move the turn maker its a turnover"?

- the only thing I completely hated and despised in the rules.

Sorry, but what exactly is stupid about the illegal procedure mechanic?

Penalising people so dramatically for forgetting something - something so very minor and unrelated to the actual gameplay especially when they are just starting is ludicrous - I simply would not play the game with that rule in operation...... it also promotes people trying to catch the other player out.

And if you incorrectly called someone on something you'd suffer the effects. If people are trying to catch one another out with it (which was what put me off even looking at BB, this is a problem with your meta, not the game) and not being punished for incorrectly calling one they're using the rule incorrectly (in a fit of irony). Besides, IIRC, you only lost your turn if you had no re-rolls left. If you got called out for an IP, you simply lost a re-roll.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


So do they still have the absolutely stupid "if you forget to move the turn maker its a turnover"?

- the only thing I completely hated and despised in the rules.

Sorry, but what exactly is stupid about the illegal procedure mechanic?

Penalising people so dramatically for forgetting something - something so very minor and unrelated to the actual gameplay especially when they are just starting is ludicrous - I simply would not play the game with that rule in operation...... it also promotes people trying to catch the other player out.

And you incorrectly called someone on something you'd suffer the effects. If people are trying to catch one another out with it (which was what put me off even looking at BB, this is a problem with your meta, not the game) and not being punished for incorrectly calling one they're using the rule incorrectly (in a fit of irony). Besides, IIRC, you only lost your turn if you had no re-rolls left. If you got called out for an IP, you simply lost a re-roll.

So what - if you have used you re-roll you are still hugely penalised FOR NO GOOD REASON. its a rule that helps no one in the game - its moving a turn maker ffs not even proper gameplay - I stand by me its stupid, counterproductive - penalises new players fro no reasons and I would only play the game without it.

What does it add??????

 Mr Morden wrote:



So what - if you have used you re-roll you are still hugely penalised FOR NO GOOD REASON. its a rule that helps no one in the game - its moving a turn maker ffs not even proper gameplay - I stand by me its stupid, counterproductive - penalises new players fro no reasons and I would only play the game without it.

What does it add??????

As I said, that there, is a problem with your meta, not the game. When I first moved to where I live now there was (and still is) a big Blood Bowl scene. I was put off even trying the game with me telling horror stories like the situations you're referring to with people generally being douchey with the rule; which can apply to any game with some kind of "gotcha" mechanics (WMH for example), you dial it down for new players or casual games.

I've played many games of BB where you'd start your turn and my opponent would kindly remind me "Are you forgetting something?" (and vice versa), even though they were well within their rights to call an IP, but it would be a kind of dick move. It's not there to be used like a "Fnar fnar, you've activated my trap card!" which is what you (and me in my previous meta) seem to have it used like.

Herzlos wrote:

 foostick wrote:
Popped into my local GW on Saturday to pick up a couple of books and take a look at BaC - got talking to the manager as I'd been in chatting a couple of weeks ago about wanting BaC. They asked if I was picking a copy up and I said I wasn't due to money etc having just got back from my stag do and getting married next month.

Conversation then moved onto the SG announcement and I said that as much as I'd like BaC if I had a choice between Necromunda and BaC that I'd go for Necromunda and given the finances are going to be tight post wedding that I'd probably leave BaC in the hopes a Necromunda announcement would be coming. The manager said to me that it was going to be coming and that the staff in their store were all brushing off their Necromunda minis and gearing up for it as it was the most popular game among them. Obviously they could be just making assumptions as we are but we had a seriously long winded chat about campaigns and gangs and potential new gangs etc.

This is a stark contrast to about 2 months ago when I went in to get some Dark Eldar Wyches to make some proxy Escher with and when I said that's what I was doing they all clammed up

At the very least I guess that the fact Necromunda isn't a dirty word in GW stores is a good thing.

I expect that's mostly hype, apparently the teams doing the relaunching haven't been formed yet, and they don't actually know what they are going to start on. They'll probably do Necromunda but I think Blood Bowl will be first as they had 4 teams ready to go before they pulled it due to Dreadfleet. So If there is going to be a Necromunda re-release, it's unlikely to be out until at least 2017, and the staff will no doubt be encouraged to use new teams for it (assuming they still work for GW by then).

It's good to get excited, but it's definitely worth managing expectations here. It's a long way out.

I was more amused by the change in attitude from a couple of months ago where literally upon mentioning Necromunda the conversation shot down as it wasn't a core product, it was almost like walking in and starting to chat about Malifaux. Now they're being talked about enthusiastically and there's talk of getting some games in the store etc. It's just a nice shift in attitude that I suspect has a lot to do with head office relaxing their stance rather than the shop employees.

Like I said, it's confirmation of nothing but they're acting like it's going to happen which is a reason to be positive

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:



So what - if you have used you re-roll you are still hugely penalised FOR NO GOOD REASON. its a rule that helps no one in the game - its moving a turn maker ffs not even proper gameplay - I stand by me its stupid, counterproductive - penalises new players fro no reasons and I would only play the game without it.

What does it add??????

As I said, that there, is a problem with your meta, not the game. When I first moved to where I live now there was (and still is) a big Blood Bowl scene. I was put off even trying the game with me telling horror stories like the situations you're referring to with people generally being douchey with the rule; which can apply to any game with some kind of "gotcha" mechanics (WMH for example), you dial it down for new players or casual games.

I've played many games of BB where you'd start your turn and my opponent would kindly remind me "Are you forgetting something?" (and vice versa), even though they were well within their rights to call an IP, but it would be a kind of dick move. It's not there to be used like a "Fnar fnar, you've activated my trap card!" which is what you (and me in my previous meta) seem to have it used like.

I would not play with that rule - full stop - again if anyone likes it What exactly does it add?????? I would equally never call someone out on that - its a pathetic thing to do given its a non gameplay element.

The first time we were shown the game by visitors to the club, I and others were called out and not only did badly at the game because of it but it left a very sour taste.

Again if and when I play it again at out club we would simply ignore the rule as in practice that's what we would do in this or any other similar game.

Any rant over..............