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Mordheim and Necromunda (particularly Necro) include benefits in break point and territory management for larger gangs/warbands amongst other things.

I still hope and pine for a rerelease of Warhammer Quest, with a bit of Advanced Heroquest tossed in.

I'd drop just about all my other dungeon crawlers in a heartbeat for a modern, fine- tuned Quest. It would also mean I'd most likely be purchasing GW models again to fill those dungeons.

Hell, make it an Age of Sigmar branded quest and I'd still be happy if it made the options available for tossing any old model in.

MeanBone wrote:
The Possessed starting warband box set was 7 models. Witch Hunters was 8. Most Necro gangs came 8 in a box. If you played Spyrers, you could get away with 4 or 5. Skirmish campaign games are a great way to provide variety, which seemed to be the direction GW was heading based on those Gorkamorka designer's notes. Then some genius decided everybody wanted to paint 80-100 models, and if you don't then we don't want your business. Brilliant.

Exalted. This is what pisses me off about people who jumped on 40k about the time apocalypse exploded. They see those of us who were around for this as crusty old axe grinders who are just hating on GW for no reason.
NO.. they changed ideology and morphed into something completely different! The writing for the motivation behind this was on the wall.

I'm flipping open my 3rd ed BRB and page 21, a "full sized game" sees Gav with 25 models in his Eldar army including vehicles. Andy's Space Marine army has 16 models. That's it!
They do show bigger armies but the focus is never on that. Unit sizes, minimum model count, supplements, D weapons, flyer rules.. They started throwing all sorts of things into the kitchen sink and then they through that at us too.. However, the baby and the bathwater were both drained first which is where the old SG games went. Specialist Games were part of the old guard mentality of easing players into the product lines. Apocalypse and Ard Boys and all that crap that was shoved down our throats, that was all reflective of the business model they took on .. I dunno.. maybe 2006 or so? I am probably off with that but I think I remember Apocalypse being shown at the 2006 Baltimore Gamesday (only one I ever went to).

Again.. I feel like they are willing to try reintegrating some of the old mentality and I'll support that move.

 MLaw wrote:
I'm flipping open my 3rd ed BRB and page 21, a "full sized game" sees Gav with 25 models in his Eldar army including vehicles. Andy's Space Marine army has 16 models. That's it!
They do show bigger armies but the focus is never on that. Unit sizes, minimum model count, supplements, D weapons, flyer rules.. They started throwing all sorts of things into the kitchen sink and then they through that at us too.. However, the baby and the bathwater were both drained first which is where the old SG games went. Specialist Games were part of the old guard mentality of easing players into the product lines. Apocalypse and Ard Boys and all that crap that was shoved down our throats, that was all reflective of the business model they took on .. I dunno.. maybe 2006 or so? I am probably off with that but I think I remember Apocalypse being shown at the 2006 Baltimore Gamesday (only one I ever went to).

Games were way bigger than that in 3rd edition. I think you're thinking of 2nd edition for smaller units. Granted, games have gotten bigger, but I standardly played with twice that many minis in 3rd edition and in some cases 3 times.

Here's my 3rd edition SW army on display board. That's 40 3+ models and another 10 lesser armor saves with 6 tanks.

 pretre wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
I'm flipping open my 3rd ed BRB and page 21, a "full sized game" sees Gav with 25 models in his Eldar army including vehicles. Andy's Space Marine army has 16 models. That's it!
They do show bigger armies but the focus is never on that. Unit sizes, minimum model count, supplements, D weapons, flyer rules.. They started throwing all sorts of things into the kitchen sink and then they through that at us too.. However, the baby and the bathwater were both drained first which is where the old SG games went. Specialist Games were part of the old guard mentality of easing players into the product lines. Apocalypse and Ard Boys and all that crap that was shoved down our throats, that was all reflective of the business model they took on .. I dunno.. maybe 2006 or so? I am probably off with that but I think I remember Apocalypse being shown at the 2006 Baltimore Gamesday (only one I ever went to).

Games were way bigger than that in 3rd edition. I think you're thinking of 2nd edition for smaller units. Granted, games have gotten bigger, but I standardly played with twice that many minis in 3rd edition and in some cases 3 times.

Here's my 3rd edition SW army on display board. That's 40 3+ models and another 10 lesser armor saves with 6 tanks.

Spoiler:

I'm going to assume you mean for 1500-1750 tournaments.
My IG in 3rd edition tournaments had I think 85 models. I don't have any pictures unfortunately :( However, my 2nd edition forces, did in fact have quite a bit less. The example I was showing above though, that's straight out of the 3rd edition rule book from the starter box that shipped with a few marines, a land speeder, and some dark eldar.. which is sitting right in front of me. We played 1000 point games pretty often at my old gaming club and 20-30 model forces were not uncommon. The hardcore tournament players always refused to play such small matches but there were enough of us playing >1000 lists that I learned to gauge those lists pretty well.

The point though.. was that the ideology has shifted towards the bloated fatty that is current 40k. Drop in points per model, increase in minimum count etc. The mentality towards this points towards dollar signs (or ..GBP signs), and enough of us took notice and moved on. I'm taking the reintroduction of SG as a sign that they're aware and intending to lower the barrier of entry into their product ranges. Necromunda doesn't necessarily factor into that due to the models having very limited use in 40k but the shift in thinking is a good thing.

It's important to note that the standard sized game back then was 1500pts. By the end of 3rd edition, that had crept up to 1850pt in some venues. It seems like 2k is the standard right now but that isn't a fair comparison as most things in my experience have gone down in points since 3rd edition. For instance, my 2500pt 4th ed tau army dropped to around 2300pts with the 6th edition codex (the IG had a similar drop from 3rd to 5th). Tactical marines went from 18pts with frag and krak grenades to 14pts despite getting additional free rules and IIRC terminators dropped as well.

 warboss wrote:
It's important to note that the standard sized game back then was 1500pts. By the end of 3rd edition, that had crept up to 1850pt in some venues. It seems like 2k is the standard right now but that isn't a fair comparison as most things in my experience have gone down in points since 3rd edition. For instance, my 2500pt 4th ed tau army dropped to around 2300pts with the 6th edition codex (the IG had a similar drop from 3rd to 5th). Tactical marines went from 18pts with frag and krak grenades to 14pts despite getting additional free rules and IIRC terminators dropped as well.

I believe you'll find the US standard is closer to 1850 than 2000.

Quite possible as I don't play on any regular basis let alone competitively. In any case, my point stands that 1850pts in 3rd edition is NOT the same amount of figs that would go into an 1850pt army now even with the same army and same collection. GW has slowly crept down the points values across the board while the community slowly crept up the average game size.

Mlaw wrote:My IG in 3rd edition tournaments had I think 85 models. I don't have any pictures unfortunately :( However, my 2nd edition forces, did in fact have quite a bit less. The example I was showing above though, that's straight out of the 3rd edition rule book from the starter box that shipped with a few marines, a land speeder, and some dark eldar.. which is sitting right in front of me. We played 1000 point games pretty often at my old gaming club and 20-30 model forces were not uncommon. The hardcore tournament players always refused to play such small matches but there were enough of us playing >1000 lists that I learned to gauge those lists pretty well.

The point though.. was that the ideology has shifted towards the bloated fatty that is current 40k. Drop in points per model, increase in minimum count etc. The mentality towards this points towards dollar signs (or ..GBP signs), and enough of us took notice and moved on. I'm taking the reintroduction of SG as a sign that they're aware and intending to lower the barrier of entry into their product ranges. Necromunda doesn't necessarily factor into that due to the models having very limited use in 40k but the shift in thinking is a good thing.

I don't disagree that armies have gotten larger in model count, I was just disputing that they were tiny 10-30 model forces in 3rd edition. Sure, if you play 1000 point games, they are pretty small, but not 15 space marines small.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
Quite possible as I don't play on any regular basis let alone competitively. In any case, my point stands that 1850pts in 3rd edition is NOT the same amount of figs that would go into an 1850pt army now even with the same army and same collection. GW has slowly crept down the points values across the board while the community slowly crept up the average game size.

Actually, army size is back down from 5th edition. I think you'll find that average was 1500-1750 in 3rd, crept up to 2000 for normal and 2500 ('Ard Boyz) being acceptable in 4th and 5th and then back to 1850-2000 in 6th/7th (due to rules complication and event time limits).

That being said, your point about cheaper points values for models is certainly true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also missed that there are a number of codexes with free models and wargear, which helps with model inflation.

 pretre wrote:

Mlaw wrote:My IG in 3rd edition tournaments had I think 85 models. I don't have any pictures unfortunately :( However, my 2nd edition forces, did in fact have quite a bit less. The example I was showing above though, that's straight out of the 3rd edition rule book from the starter box that shipped with a few marines, a land speeder, and some dark eldar.. which is sitting right in front of me. We played 1000 point games pretty often at my old gaming club and 20-30 model forces were not uncommon. The hardcore tournament players always refused to play such small matches but there were enough of us playing >1000 lists that I learned to gauge those lists pretty well.

The point though.. was that the ideology has shifted towards the bloated fatty that is current 40k. Drop in points per model, increase in minimum count etc. The mentality towards this points towards dollar signs (or ..GBP signs), and enough of us took notice and moved on. I'm taking the reintroduction of SG as a sign that they're aware and intending to lower the barrier of entry into their product ranges. Necromunda doesn't necessarily factor into that due to the models having very limited use in 40k but the shift in thinking is a good thing.

I don't disagree that armies have gotten larger in model count, I was just disputing that they were tiny 10-30 model forces in 3rd edition. Sure, if you play 1000 point games, they are pretty small, but not 15 space marines small.

You can dispute it but the lists I posted are directly out of the rulebook from 3rd edition. I didn't alter them in any way. Again, I have it in front of me and referenced the page number (21 if you missed it). When you guys say "standard game" what you're saying is, standard tournament. A lot of tournament players like to believe that this is the only way or the basis for all 40k gaming, but that mentality is what pushed a lot of us away. I already mentioned Ard Boyz.

Anyway.. we seem to have drifted off-topic(ish) so I'll leave it at that. I stated my point about the barrier to entry and then we got caught up in minutia of a tangent.

FINAL (Final?) OFF TOPIC WARNING.

Seriously - no more!

 MLaw wrote:
You can dispute it but the lists I posted are directly out of the rulebook from 3rd edition. I didn't alter them in any way. Again, I have it in front of me and referenced the page number (21 if you missed it). When you guys say "standard game" what you're saying is, standard tournament. A lot of tournament players like to believe that this is the only way or the basis for all 40k gaming, but that mentality is what pushed a lot of us away. I already mentioned Ard Boyz.

So I went and dug out my 3rd edition rulebook and note two things about the battle report on pg. 21-22. The first is that they clearly say that they're playing a small game. Second is they do not give a points value for their armies.

EDIT: Sorry

I'm not getting over excited at this stage. There's so many ways GW could screw this up.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm not getting over excited at this stage. There's so many ways GW could screw this up.

It could, but they could succeed beyond all expectations as well. Either way, its still better than GW just sitting on these properties. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Something that the smaller entry games also did was to encourage multiple force purchase. Hmm. That gang only cost me $40 or so and I've got them all painted (another advantage). My buddy's fill-in-the-blank army looks cool/beats my current force/has cool options. I think I'll buy another gang/warband.

 Talys wrote:
The guy who wants a 7-10 model game will never play a GW game though. I don't think GW has ever produced a 7-model boardgame, and I doubt it ever will. The assassins game was probably the closest they ever came to that.

Ever play Spyrers?



Oooh... plastic Spyrers. Wouldn't that be nice?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Talys wrote:
The guy who wants a 7-10 model game will never play a GW game though. I don't think GW has ever produced a 7-model boardgame, and I doubt it ever will. The assassins game was probably the closest they ever came to that.

Ever play Spyrers?

Or Battlefleet Gothic, I think my IN fleet has/had 6 ships. Boardgame wise GW has produced games with no models at all (Armageddon).....

I think Id buy at least 3-4 boxes of plastic escher of course depending on if they keep the original aesthetic.


Redemptionists should be safe as should Scavvy.


Though Ratskins I'm concerned they wont keep the ratskin wearing theme and end up like the awful second incarnation counterparts.

Ill probably buy Delaque, Cowdor, and Goliath (which actually before i wouldn't have but ive come to actually love the punk aesthetic.)

We need to think how they will well actually do this. For every great kit they do GW do still pump out lemons.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Talys wrote:
The guy who wants a 7-10 model game will never play a GW game though. I don't think GW has ever produced a 7-model boardgame, and I doubt it ever will. The assassins game was probably the closest they ever came to that.

Ever play Spyrers?



Oooh... plastic Spyrers. Wouldn't that be nice?

Muties Gorkamorka i only had 5 and it was fairly unbeatable

migooo wrote:
Redemptionists should be safe as should Scavvy.

I only have like 75 redemptionists. I guess I could use some more.

Everyone here seems to be assuming we're getting plastics for all the Necromunda gangs. I feel like these would surely be resin kits from FW rather than plastic box sets. I could see a plastic starter box with terrain and stuff, but I feel the gangs are the perfect size for a resin FW release. No need for big expensive molds and can conceivably crank them out fairly quickly. Keep in mind their stated goal is releases in months, not years. I feel like plastic kits would edge closer to years for production and release.

I'd actually prefer resin FW sets for my Necro gangs. Also means they can add supplemental releases, be it themed hired guns, new models or weapon sets, etc. whereas a plastic gang box would certainly be a one and done release.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm not getting over excited at this stage. There's so many ways GW could screw this up.

They could just put the rules and old miniatures back in production for most of those games and it'd be considered good by most people. So it'd be pretty hard to screw it up.

I hope GW re-releases or makes new Necromunda Enforcers models. I use a bunch of them in my 40K Arbite army for special weapons, charterers and cyber-mastiffs.

Tony Cottrell is really good at what he does, isn't he? So this would be good news then, surely?

 Starfarer wrote:
Everyone here seems to be assuming we're getting plastics for all the Necromunda gangs. I feel like these would surely be resin kits from FW rather than plastic box sets. I could see a plastic starter box with terrain and stuff, but I feel the gangs are the perfect size for a resin FW release. No need for big expensive molds and can conceivably crank them out fairly quickly. Keep in mind their stated goal is releases in months, not years. I feel like plastic kits would edge closer to years for production and release.

I'd actually prefer resin FW sets for my Necro gangs. Also means they can add supplemental releases, be it themed hired guns, new models or weapon sets, etc. whereas a plastic gang box would certainly be a one and done release.

I was thinking exactly this as well. As much as I would like plastic kits for all of these, I know that the lead time is at least several months, and substantially (in this case, perhaps, prohibitively) more expensive. If the sculpts are done digitally (in the case of Forge World, many of them are now), it wouldn't be too much effort to move a set to plastic, should the demand warrant the investment.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oooh... plastic Spyrers. Wouldn't that be nice?

If they did that, it would be cool to see them mix the roles up a bit - a male Jakara and female Orrus, things like that.

 Fango wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
Everyone here seems to be assuming we're getting plastics for all the Necromunda gangs. I feel like these would surely be resin kits from FW rather than plastic box sets. I could see a plastic starter box with terrain and stuff, but I feel the gangs are the perfect size for a resin FW release. No need for big expensive molds and can conceivably crank them out fairly quickly. Keep in mind their stated goal is releases in months, not years. I feel like plastic kits would edge closer to years for production and release.

I'd actually prefer resin FW sets for my Necro gangs. Also means they can add supplemental releases, be it themed hired guns, new models or weapon sets, etc. whereas a plastic gang box would certainly be a one and done release.

I was thinking exactly this as well. As much as I would like plastic kits for all of these, I know that the lead time is at least several months, and substantially (in this case, perhaps, prohibitively) more expensive. If the sculpts are done digitally (in the case of Forge World, many of them are now), it wouldn't be too much effort to move a set to plastic, should the demand warrant the investment.

Either way I'm hoping that they will be great but female models for GW are very hit and miss.

 AlexHolker wrote:
If they did that, it would be cool to see them mix the roles up a bit - a male Jakara and female Orrus, things like that.

Ditto for a lot of the other gangs (except Escher and Goliath, probably).

But Spyrers are the kind of thing I fear would receive $36 clam packs. Each. *shudder*

Zingraff wrote:
Tony Cottrell is really good at what he does, isn't he? So this would be good news then, surely?

Despite what a lot of the concern trolls and eternally vitriolic among us would have you believe, yeah, it's probably a good thing. I would argue even the worst case scenario of them milking the SG franchise for a quick buck would still be an overall positive. Updated rules and models can only increase these game's popularity. Right now there are a happy few of us carrying the banners, but that will only go down the further out we get from these games without an update.

migooo wrote:

 Fango wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
Everyone here seems to be assuming we're getting plastics for all the Necromunda gangs. I feel like these would surely be resin kits from FW rather than plastic box sets. I could see a plastic starter box with terrain and stuff, but I feel the gangs are the perfect size for a resin FW release. No need for big expensive molds and can conceivably crank them out fairly quickly. Keep in mind their stated goal is releases in months, not years. I feel like plastic kits would edge closer to years for production and release.

I'd actually prefer resin FW sets for my Necro gangs. Also means they can add supplemental releases, be it themed hired guns, new models or weapon sets, etc. whereas a plastic gang box would certainly be a one and done release.

I was thinking exactly this as well. As much as I would like plastic kits for all of these, I know that the lead time is at least several months, and substantially (in this case, perhaps, prohibitively) more expensive. If the sculpts are done digitally (in the case of Forge World, many of them are now), it wouldn't be too much effort to move a set to plastic, should the demand warrant the investment.

Either way I'm hoping that they will be great but female models for GW are very hit and miss.

FW models, especially their human sculpts are really good, and typically have a better scale for human models. I think they could nail it on Escher models for example. Hell, I think if they even make half way decent Escher models, they will still sell through the roof. The originals still command the highest prices of any of the sets on ebay.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm not getting over excited at this stage. There's so many ways GW could screw this up.

They could just put the rules and old miniatures back in production for most of those games and it'd be considered good by most people. So it'd be pretty hard to screw it up.

If that's all they did they would be good.... I doubt that's what they'll do though. There's actually quite a lot of kits involved and many of them were metal which GW has been avoiding for several years now.

I'm worried we'll get cut down versions, incomplete forces and high prices that make it prohibitively expensive for many people. They can still very easily price themselves out of it being a win, just look at The Hobbit and even the rerelease of Space Hulk in Australia was marred by extreme pricing to the point where it was still on shelves 6 months later (I bought my copy long after release at about a 15% discount and the store still had several copies left on the shelf).

Just getting reprints of the rules but insufficient models to play it is one of my worries because it's very hard to get new players in to it if that's the case. Or getting a lot of the old metal stuff in dodgy resin at inflated finecast prices could make the old games very unappealing.

Of course that's just my concerns.... deep down I'm hoping for a full release of Epic which will let me finally fill out my Space Marine and Ork forces and get that Tyranid force I so desperately wanted and I'll wet my pants if they release the true scale 6mm Aeronautica Imperialis aircraft again. I'm still pissed that it was cut half way through my Imperial Navy squadron.

 Starfarer wrote:
Everyone here seems to be assuming we're getting plastics for all the Necromunda gangs.

A generic Ganger box would be a possibility though given the crossover potential with 40k. There is little or no chance that each gang will get a plastic box, it would just be too expensive.