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DE have been out for a while. That no major tournament has seen them placed in the top 10, without being a minor component pointswise of an eldar army, is very indicative that they are not competitive.

DE are not some hidden gem that no one has figured out how to use properly, they just lack the tools to be competitive.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

You have either failed to understand, or have deliberately misinterpreted my entire post. Of course i know that the CTC can get VP's from non-vehicle kills, that was obvious inferred by when i said ''It's not a subtle formation''. My point stands that the CTC cannot walk across the board and expect to wrack up these VP's unless the opponent is literally setting up all his units to be multi-charged at the same time. As for ''I might not have to, remember?'' i assume you are inferring to Scout and Outflank? Scout is a 6'' move, it doesn't solve the problems the CTC has, only slightly alleviates them. And if you intend to put 600pts of your army into reserve when Dark Eldar have no access to reserve manipulation apart from the Aegis which doesn't gel with the army at all, then that is exceptionally bad planning. You could be spending 4 turns 600pts down, and only have 1/2 turns of assault in which to wrack up these VP's.

Maybe i should avoid satire and sarcasm, it seems to go right over some peoples heads.

Nope. I got everything you were saying. Ignored the sarcasm on purpose because well... these threads go poorly if I don't.

You are downplaying both the Comms Relay, even though its an obvious answer to your concern (for when it even will be one), and you're downplaying how much it "alleviates" that concern. So if your response is just to downplay the obvious things to do, I suppose that's one way to go.

Anywho, I really hope you can back away from the ledge on Dark Eldar. Or not.

As a long time Dark Eldar player ( I have 5000 points of old-school DE) Here is what I think is wrong, or missing in their codex:

Across the board they are too expensive. They need point drops on units, vehicles, characters, weapons, upgrades, etc.

They need more interesting wargear. At the moment they are boring. Remember when you used to be able to give your leader a punisher?

More internal Synergy is needed. The commander of an army should have weapons and wargear that compliment the unit he joins. At the moment.....it doesn't quite work out that well.

I'm fine with the Glass cannon ideal, just add some more offensive output to underline the cannon part.

Speed, they need more of it. Let raiders either move farther, units disembark at flat-out, or both.

Vect. For the love of God, bring this guy back. Preferably both as an on-foot model and on his pimpmobile.

 cuda1179 wrote:
As a long time Dark Eldar player ( I have 5000 points of old-school DE) Here is what I think is wrong, or missing in their codex:

Across the board they are too expensive. They need point drops on units, vehicles, characters, weapons, upgrades, etc.

They need more interesting wargear. At the moment they are boring. Remember when you used to be able to give your leader a punisher?

More internal Synergy is needed. The commander of an army should have weapons and wargear that compliment the unit he joins. At the moment.....it doesn't quite work out that well.

I'm fine with the Glass cannon ideal, just add some more offensive output to underline the cannon part.

Speed, they need more of it. Let raiders either move farther, units disembark at flat-out, or both.

Vect. For the love of God, bring this guy back. Preferably both as an on-foot model and on his pimpmobile.

Worst of all, their weird gimmick in the new book was the emphasis of Fear or Soulfright which were found on things like phantasm grenade launchers, even though most units worth scaring nowadays are either Fearless, Ld10, or have ATSKNF. Sadly one of the few armies its actually okay against are Orks, but even then its a lacklustre attempt to show the horrors of the Dark Eldar unleashed and no real way of demonstrating their tactics as raiders.

 cuda1179 wrote:
As a long time Dark Eldar player ( I have 5000 points of old-school DE) Here is what I think is wrong, or missing in their codex:

Remember when you used to be able to give your leader a punisher?

Vect. For the love of God, bring this guy back. Preferably both as an on-foot model and on his pimpmobile.

I do agree on these two points. I dont get why they dont let us have a build a bear factory with our leader. And the stupid Crucible... My gawd how did they mess that up? THAT annoys me. I'm not much of a complainer or a whiner, but that one thing really really upset me.

And Vect, yeah... I mean... what was the point of removing one of the most discernibly important figures in the Dark Eldar lore? Make him a Lord of War or something but fer feths sake, leave him available.

That doesn't really stop the codex from winning but it is definitely annoying enough to agree with, Hehehe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
As a long time Dark Eldar player ( I have 5000 points of old-school DE) Here is what I think is wrong, or missing in their codex:

Across the board they are too expensive. They need point drops on units, vehicles, characters, weapons, upgrades, etc.

They need more interesting wargear. At the moment they are boring. Remember when you used to be able to give your leader a punisher?

More internal Synergy is needed. The commander of an army should have weapons and wargear that compliment the unit he joins. At the moment.....it doesn't quite work out that well.

I'm fine with the Glass cannon ideal, just add some more offensive output to underline the cannon part.

Speed, they need more of it. Let raiders either move farther, units disembark at flat-out, or both.

Vect. For the love of God, bring this guy back. Preferably both as an on-foot model and on his pimpmobile.

Worst of all, their weird gimmick in the new book was the emphasis of Fear or Soulfright which were found on things like phantasm grenade launchers, even though most units worth scaring nowadays are either Fearless, Ld10, or have ATSKNF. Sadly one of the few armies its actually okay against are Orks, but even then its a lacklustre attempt to show the horrors of the Dark Eldar unleashed and no real way of demonstrating their tactics as raiders.

make it LD based and nor morale based and whammo. Scary as hell.

Personally I just want my archon w/ blast pistol, venom blade, and clone field back. She was so difficult to kill back in the waaay back when of 5th edition xD but now I simply can't use the build, and in GW stores I couldn't use her model either since no Venom blades for good people.

I also miss the distinction between haemonculus and the ancients, and wish they actually had discounts or new items for the ancients to incentive getting them.

autumnlotus wrote:
Personally I just want my archon w/ blast pistol, venom blade, and clone field back. She was so difficult to kill back in the waaay back when of 5th edition xD but now I simply can't use the build, and in GW stores I couldn't use her model either since no Venom blades for good people.

The removal of Venom Blades was depressing to say the least. As was making Clone Field a bland, overpriced 4++.

I also dislike that Venom Blades are now 10pts. They really didn't need to double in price.

autumnlotus wrote:
I also miss the distinction between haemonculus and the ancients, and wish they actually had discounts or new items for the ancients to incentive getting them.

I think they could have done a lot with the distinction. Maybe some extra rules for the ancient? Again, really annoying that they reduced them to just a single type - especially after already trimming the HQ and Wargear sections to the bone.

For ancients they could have made a bigger model, with spider legs or spikey face or other deformities, and made it Bulky in size and a 35$ miniature with options like the chaos termie lord. There could have been a lot of useful miniatures for haemonculus cult that would have made me Chuck ALL my money at GW. Right now the only good ones are the Talos/Chronos, which doesn't have a lot of varience once you have 5 that are basically identical. Rules-wise none of the units have uniqueness to them, they are all just slow moving CC fighters w/ the haemonculi just being force multipliers with lil chance of doing anything themselves

Hell they could have given us the option to take jetbikes on our Archons like the old days, made a £20+ model and made loads of money.

I think I'd rather see an Ancient Haemoculus that was just a regular Haemonculus with more support abilities. Could even have a selection and let the Haemonculus pick one, or buy multiple ones:
- Master of Pain affects units in an aura around the Haemonculus.
- Haemonculus and his unit have IWND. If any models already have IWND, they instead receive +1 to the roll.
- Haemonculus and his unit get +1 on FNP rolls.
- Haemonculus and his unit have +1S.
etc.

ryuken87 wrote:
Hell they could have given us the option to take jetbikes on our Archons like the old days, made a £20+ model and made loads of money.

But that would have required GW to make models for those options. And, as we well know, they're not a model company...

Also Random tables. I despise them.

Much likes Orks w/ Mob Rule and Tyranids w/ Instinctive Behavour it's pointless and does nothing to help streamline the game, which is what GW seem to be doing. Heck, it only adds more time to the game because it's oh, I rolled this, now what does it do, right ok *roll dice* and frankly it's boring. With the DE, you have to remember what you rolled, on top of the PfP so it's eh.

I kinda want to see Combat Drugs used as Psychic Powers, so you can inject a different kind of drug to adapt to situations on the battlefield. But that's just a preliminary idea, I'd have to think about how to implement it, as DE lack Psykers.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Also Random tables. I despise them.

Much likes Orks w/ Mob Rule and Tyranids w/ Instinctive Behavour it's pointless and does nothing to help streamline the game, which is what GW seem to be doing. Heck, it only adds more time to the game because it's oh, I rolled this, now what does it do, right ok *roll dice* and frankly it's boring. With the DE, you have to remember what you rolled, on top of the PfP so it's eh.

I kinda want to see Combat Drugs used as Psychic Powers, so you can inject a different kind of drug to adapt to situations on the battlefield. But that's just a preliminary idea, I'd have to think about how to implement it, as DE lack Psykers.

As a Daemons player, I laugh at this. You think you have it bad?

Ooh yeah totally forgot about Daemons. I don't have them in my meta so i tend to forget it a lot.

That needs to go too.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Ooh yeah totally forgot about Daemons. I don't have them in my meta so i tend to forget it a lot.

That needs to go too.

Agreed. Sometimes it's rather cool (free Daemons and blowing up enemy Psykers on 3d6) but most of the time it does nothing or ends up hurting me. Um, what?

I would even take a modified table, something where it's only a d6, with 1 being bad and 6 being free Daemons. That, or keep the existing table, but make 2-3 bad, 4-8 neutral, and everything else good to awesome.

It's also just a big waste of time.

 vipoid wrote:
It's also just a big waste of time.

Eh. I've never had it take up that much time. Sure, it gets in the way, but I think it's a cool fluffy part of the army. If I wanted time efficiency, I wouldn't play 40k

 Jancoran wrote:
Oh I imagine the guys having it dropped on them will care a fair amount. And since it can attack two different targets in the round it comes on that second unit will care a lot too. You really are underestimating it, but that's a pattern, so whatevs.

Also: Pointing out something sucks "unless" its used in XYZ fashion...when it CAN be used in XYZ fashion... makes no sense.

Fact is it can be. Fact is it is. Fact is it works. So what really is your point? They are good and there are few things that can stand up to them.

The few things that can aren't ever their targets.

Voidraven Bomber is outperformed point for point by the Razorwing. An extra 70 points for those better guns and a one use bomb is too much.

If it didn't have to pay for its missiles it'd be a bit more competitive, but still fundamentally not good enough.

I'm trying out a force soon incorporating 3 Razorwings - I'm hoping 6 Fleshbane Large Blasts followed by 6 Dark Lances can be decent [though it's only friendly play so useless as a comparison].

SideSwipe wrote:

If it didn't have to pay for its missiles it'd be a bit more competitive, but still fundamentally not good enough.

"fundamentally" eh? Bombs are extremely accurate so i can't agree. That is a super deadly weapon that can get behind your cover and steal your life. It answers a need the Razorwing can't. It isn't the Second Coming of Christ or anything, but I have won more than one game because that thing just doesn't miss and steals cover away quite often with its position.

Just an opinion though. The missiles are spendy but its hard to argue that when this unit can come in and devastate two different units in one turn, you're somehow "wasting" points. The way i looked at it is, I'm paying for a massive hit with the bomb and the lances... and I am sort of "buying another one use unit" that fires three missiles also. Thats how it kind of behaves.

the void raven is trash compared to almost ever other flyer. At 160 points it comes with a one use bomb and more power lances. The bomb is good but it's one use, if i could drop one every term it be worth something but as is it's meh. It's also made of paper, bolter fire can strip off hull points. If your opponent has any interceptor skyfire unit's it's probably dead before it gets to do anything. it either needs to be much cheaper or it needs to be av 11 and come stock with missiles.

So, for comparison, the Doom Scythe is the same point cost. What does the Void Raven have over it?

The doom Scythe isnt a choice for Dark eldar. comparing them is therefore unfruitful within the context of the codex.

The Doom Scythe is a completely different kind of killer. It is less accurate since it doesn't fire a bomb (adn as you know, bombs are a lot more accurate). Life spans are about the same. The VoidRaven does do a lot more damage overall when it enters and its Dark Lances make it fearsome enough for any unit, land or air, to fear. So it is just a different killer and its in a different army.

 Jancoran wrote:
The doom Scythe isnt a choice for Dark eldar. comparing them is therefore unfruitful.

The Doom Scythe is a completely different kind of killer. It is less accurate since it doesn't fire a bomb (adn as you know, bombs are a lot more accurate). Life spans are about the same. The VoidRaven does do a lot more damage overall when it enters and its Dark Lances make it fearsome enough for any unit, land or air, to fear. So it is just a different killer and its in a different army.

Ahahah. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Mkay. Thanks.

It's a bad unit and it's fair to compare it to other units because you'll have to fight those units at some point. Compare this thing to a storm talon or even the DE other flyer it's not good. 160 points for one bomb and two lances on a very fragile platform. you give it missiles and it's over 200, way to much for how fragile it is. you run into an opponent with Aegis defense line, hydra or a stalker, etc, this thing is likely to kill nothing cause it will go down like a brick to auto cannon fire.

Compare away but understand that we arent talking about a CHOICE. If you are playing Dark Eldar, you either pay the tax to bring in the "better" aerial combatant oooor... You take the one you have for less than that tax. So comparing them does you no good.

If your list lacks enough AP 2 that you can actually separately afford to dedicate to a singular target, then the Bomber is quite a good choice.

And an "Aegis line" or {fill in the blank perfect couinter} is going to happen with any flyer. Unless you BOTH jink you BOTH run the risk of being stunned anyways and/or dying. So there is no practical difference in that scenario save for the one point of armor which probably isnt going to stop all four shots from shaking or stunning you. So Yes, the Doom Scythe CAN compare favorably to the bomber when in both scenarios they both stand against the same {fill in the blank perfect counter for flyers}. Will it? Only a certain percentage of the time.

If survivability is your only qualifier for whether its better, then hey: you win. It isnt my only qualifier.

While it may not be the best flyer it is definitely not the worst, I would take it over a Nephilim Jetfighter any day, that thing is crap.

 Jancoran wrote:
The doom Scythe isnt a choice for Dark eldar. comparing them is therefore unfruitful within the context of the codex.

The Doom Scythe is a completely different kind of killer. It is less accurate since it doesn't fire a bomb (adn as you know, bombs are a lot more accurate). Life spans are about the same. The VoidRaven does do a lot more damage overall when it enters and its Dark Lances make it fearsome enough for any unit, land or air, to fear. So it is just a different killer and its in a different army.

Sure it is. Take them under the formation where you get 2-4 of them.

For me survivability is important because flyers must come in from reserves and therefore are vulnerable to being intercepted. If a flyer doesn't have a good change of surviving the first turn then it's of questionable use. The necron flyer is a bit sturdier and has living metal which makes it harder to shut down. Either way the bomb kills one unit at most, and then you have a 160 point unit with two strength nine lances.

I'm not impressed, Dark Eldar can get lances else where for far cheaper.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
For me survivability is important because flyers must come in from reserves and therefore are vulnerable to being intercepted. If a flyer doesn't have a good change of surviving the first turn then it's of questionable use. The necron flyer is a bit sturdier and has living metal which makes it harder to shut down. Either way the bomb kills one unit at most, and then you have a 160 point unit with two strength nine lances.

I'm not impressed, Dark Eldar can get lances else where for far cheaper.

Thank you. Especially in formation, Doom Scythes are much deadlier.

Saying you can't compare units is moronic. That's the entire point of having point costs.

You could maybe make an argument about Formations, army-buffs and/or support abilities that tip the balance one way or another.

On that front, there are no formations that can even include a Razorwing, let alone buff one, DE have no army-wide special rules that affect Razorwings, and no support abilities that affect them either. So, that's those 3 ruled out.

Personally? I've found they're so fragile and don't have enough punch. I kill lots of units but I've lost so many vehicles and people that I get dinged on kill points.