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Need tips from experienced Ravenwing players. New to Dark Angels.
As the title suggests, I am having trouble deciding between Sammael and Sableclaw.
I can see pros and cons to both so am curious as to what others think. Are there situations where you would use one or the other?
Thanks in advance.

Sammael I would say is generally better. Unlike Sableclaw, you can't be one-shotted by a lucky pen, thanks to EW, short of being hit by a D weapon which would promptly fry Sableclaw anyways. Furthermore, being able to hide in other units, including those that can increase his survivability, like Ravenwing Command Squads, allows you to get him where he wants to be and synergizes better in giving I5 AP2 attacks against anything that might hold up the ravenwing squads. Plus, now that he gets to shoot his plasma cannon and his storm bolter together I don't think the damage output of Sableclaw is that much greater.

I would think that both would have their uses. I don't have the jetbike Sammy, so I can only use Sableclaw, and he does ok, especially against horde armies like Orks.

Every time I've used sableclaw it has exploded guaranteed, but the bike has stayed alive through a good number of games.

People will pay whatever for the EW rule. AV14 isn't what it used to be.

Go with Sammael. Sableclaw is a neat idea, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired, especially since AV14 isn't special as I pointed out earlier AND it only has 2 HP.

Sableclaw is somewhat useless. It just doesn't have the damage output to justify it's cost and unlike Jetbike Sammy the skimmer cannot tank for a unit of grav bikes nor run around bullying units by charging them and claiming their objectives. the real problem with Sable is the AV10 rear armour and 2 HP. It is ridiculous how easy it is to glance out a 200 pts model when it's guns are 24" range and has those stats, especially considering close combat ignores cover saves.

Sammy in either form is extremely low damage output for his cost. The jetbike Sammy is however very good at tanking damage with EW and his 3+ or possible 2+ rerollable jink save. He is also extremely fast which lets him run around scoring maelstorm objectives and has just enough combat ability to engage most infantry targets and kill them off objectives. Funny enough I don't remember ever firing his plasma cannon due to jinking or turbo boosting all the time. However I do break him off of the unit he was attached to quite often to go score some pts.

The 4++ save on Sableclaw goes a fair way to mitigating the 2HP.

For me it depends on the rest of the army. If the rest of your army is all speeders and/or tanks (perfectly viable army with the DA codex), Sableclaw will fit in nicely.

Except it is AV10 on the back. The 4++ only goes so far.

It really isn't hard to keep the back armour against the edge of the table the whole game, if you're worried about deep strikers. And it's not like there's a whole lot that can catch up with you to get you in close combat.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It really isn't hard to keep the back armour against the edge of the table the whole game, if you're worried about deep strikers. And it's not like there's a whole lot that can catch up with you to get you in close combat.

I dunno, there's a lot of stuff nowadays that can move 12" and outmaneuver one land speeder. There's Wraiths, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Warbikers, SM bikers, Drop Pods, Webway portals, Flesh Hounds, Scourges (whose haywire guns don't give a hoot about your AV14), etc. Hell, I'd argue that with the scatbikes ridiculous mobility they can manage to get rear armour hits if they roll high enough for their free eldar jetbike 2D6 movement.

Another question on topic- while a support squadron can fire overwatch, Landspeeders do not have the Grim Resolve" rule like the rest of the army, so will be firing overwatch at BS1. Sableclaw does have the "Grim Resolve" rule. Does that mean Sableclaw can fire overwatch and at BS2 even though that, outside of the support squadron, most vehicles cannot usually fire overwatch?

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Another question on topic- while a support squadron can fire overwatch, Landspeeders do not have the Grim Resolve" rule like the rest of the army, so will be firing overwatch at BS1. Sableclaw does have the "Grim Resolve" rule. Does that mean Sableclaw can fire overwatch and at BS2 even though that, outside of the support squadron, most vehicles cannot usually fire overwatch?

Land Speeders (like all other vehicles) cannot Overwatch, except in certain formations. If he is taken in a formation that can Overwatch, then yes, he gets the improved Overwatch UNLESS he jinked. Then he is snap shots.

Hmm, no book in front of me - does grim resolve say something like 'can overwatch' or 'is allowed to overwatch'

Because tehnically codex trumps rulebook and overrides restriction on sableclaw overwatching - if it does.

Book not in front of me either, I will have to check when I get home but I'm pretty sure it says- grants stubborn and the ability to fire overwatch at BS2 unless jinking.
Sableclaw can't be taken in the support squad so if he can't shoot overwatch I can't figure out why he would have Grim Resolve.

but....but....

'grants the ability to fire overwatch'




Automatically Appended Next Post:
technically means anything with grim resolve, if it couldn't fire overwatch before - can now

 chaosmarauder wrote:
but....but....

'grants the ability to fire overwatch'




Automatically Appended Next Post:
technically means anything with grim resolve, if it couldn't fire overwatch before - can now

Not quite, the grim resolve rule only states that "Models with this special rule have the Stubborn special rule and, unless Jinking, count their Ballistic Skill as 2 when firing Overwatch". It doesn't say that it grants the ability to overwatch, only that if it can, it does so at BS2. So outside the formation that specifies that the Land Speeders can overwatch, I don't think they (or in this case Sammael) can.

 Grimskul wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
but....but....

'grants the ability to fire overwatch'




Automatically Appended Next Post:
technically means anything with grim resolve, if it couldn't fire overwatch before - can now

Not quite, the grim resolve rule only states that "Models with this special rule have the Stubborn special rule and, unless Jinking, count their Ballistic Skill as 2 when firing Overwatch". It doesn't say that it grants the ability to overwatch, only that if it can, it does so at BS2. So outside the formation that specifies that the Land Speeders can overwatch, I don't think they (or in this case Sammael) can.

Yes agreed - don't have book infront of me but if thats what it says then no overwatch for sable claw.

On a different note, I think sable claw is a beast now with rerollable jink and the ap 2 vector strike.

Just make sure not to stick it in range of an assault.

Just got home and re-read the rule.. I agree it doesn't allow him to fire overwatch. I was remembering the Grim Reaolve rule not quite right.

I've honestly never had a problem staying out of CC and with my back to the wall, with Sableclaw. You have speed and range...

What range? The Heavy Bolter? It's a junk weapon.
Otherwise, even Bolters have a chance to glance it to death hitting the back.

Sableclaw simply doesn't offer enough to take it over regular Sammael.

I can't think of any situation outside of not having the miniature that it'd be a good idea to field Sableclaw instead of Sammael. The fact that Sableclaw has 2 votes already is pretty astounding, assuming that those votes aren't there to troll or mislead people.

Twin-linked Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon with a few vector strikes? Oooo, how scary indeed.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I've honestly never had a problem staying out of CC and with my back to the wall, with Sableclaw. You have speed and range...

How do you possibly stay with your back to the board edge and fire a 24" assault cannons? Or are you only firing a 200 pts heavy bolter? Not to mention that DS assault is now a thing and I often play against or play as armies which can get across the entire board and charge something on the table edge turn 2-3.

The fact of the matter is that even if you shoot with sableclaw every turn the entire game you still only get an assault cannon and a heavy bolter. The damage output for cost is just pitiful when you consider you cannot afford to get in behind targets due to AV10 rear.

The funniest part of this discussion has to be the new Tau formation which makes Sableclaw into a bad joke with it having better range, infiltrate, and always resolving against rear armour.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
The 4++ save on Sableclaw goes a fair way to mitigating the 2HP.

For me it depends on the rest of the army. If the rest of your army is all speeders and/or tanks (perfectly viable army with the DA codex), Sableclaw will fit in nicely.

Well, good luck if you come up against OSC with full stealth suits arming brust cannons.........
However, if you faced a Tyranid army show up with 3 Mawlocs and 5 Flyrants, Sableclaw better than the jetbike one in survivability.

Yeah the always resolve against rear armour thing is faintly ridiculous, and does make Sableclaw pretty much worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, the OP asked "are there situations where you'd take one rather than the other", which is why I answered accordingly -- yes, but only if the rest of your army is speeders and tanks. Pretty niche but a bit of a surprise to most opponents.

I agree with what is mostly the consensus; Sammael is much better on the jetbike than on the speeder.

Sableclaw dies far too easily in combat with only 2HP and rear armour 10 (I recently took him down with only 3 bikers using grenades in a Dark Angels vs Dark Angles game). Yes, you can stay away from combat range with turbo-boosting, but in that case, why take him in the first place? He gets the nice vector strike, but I don't think it is worth the points cost. His damage output is low with only the heavy bolter and assault cannons. For slightly more, you could get 3 normal landspeeders all armed with heavy bolters and assault cannons that have a greater damage output.

Sammael on jetbike leading a unit of Black Knights is a far better option. He has a great warlord trait for ensuring that you make your charge. He also gets an I5 AP2 sword, great for dealing with MEQ. He is also pretty durable with 3+ re-rollable jink, 4+ invul and Eternal warrior.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah the always resolve against rear armour thing is faintly ridiculous, and does make Sableclaw pretty much worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, the OP asked "are there situations where you'd take one rather than the other", which is why I answered accordingly -- yes, but only if the rest of your army is speeders and tanks. Pretty niche but a bit of a surprise to most opponents.

Fair enough.


Though IMO Sammy on jetbike actually works fine by himself without any unit. Not as well but still okay. He is actually a pretty good harassment unit capable of knocking most units off their objective or at the least pulling them off it. He is also extremely hard to kill as long as you can keep him away from ignore cover shooting. Really if Sammy just had AP2 on his sword and/or an anti vehicle melee attack he would be really good. As is he is good at harassing weak units but hits like a wet noodle against anything his pts cost.

 ansacs wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah the always resolve against rear armour thing is faintly ridiculous, and does make Sableclaw pretty much worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, the OP asked "are there situations where you'd take one rather than the other", which is why I answered accordingly -- yes, but only if the rest of your army is speeders and tanks. Pretty niche but a bit of a surprise to most opponents.

Fair enough.


Though IMO Sammy on jetbike actually works fine by himself without any unit. Not as well but still okay. He is actually a pretty good harassment unit capable of knocking most units off their objective or at the least pulling them off it. He is also extremely hard to kill as long as you can keep him away from ignore cover shooting. Really if Sammy just had AP2 on his sword and/or an anti vehicle melee attack he would be really good. As is he is good at harassing weak units but hits like a wet noodle against anything his pts cost.

Sammael has an AP2 sword.

Did sableclaw ever have a model?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Did sableclaw ever have a model?

Sort of at least, back in ye olden days there was a Master of the Ravenwing kit. Don't remember if the speeder itself was called Sableclaw then but that's pretty much it. In the old Dark Angels battleforce box that had a bunch of bikes had also the older Land Speeder kit in it and instructions on how to build the Grand Master's own speeder from the parts.

You get a sableclaw upgrade kit in every ravenwing biker box- I've got like 4 or 5 of them, its a part of the upgrade sprue that has all the neat DA icons and dreadnaught bits.