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Ever noticed how everyone thinks Chaos is evil? I disagree. The Imperium is evil. Chaos are those few people brave enough to stand up against an injust, racist society, those who really value the freedom to worship who they want, be led by who they want and do whatever the heck they think they want, within reason.

Yeah, lets stand up to the injustice and racist society of the Imperial Hierarchy by pillaging, raping, murdering, sacrificing, enslaving and infecting every innocent civillian that had no choice in the way they were brought up.

That sounds totally within reason to me....

Chaos are *Chaotic* Evil, Imperium are Chaotic Neutral, there is still a whole tier between them.

Nah. Chaos is just another flavor of evil. The Imperium is also evil, but don't delude yourself into thinking there are 'good guys' out there in 40k.

The Imperium never really struck me as evil. Just (to an extent) pragmatic. They know from experience that simply seeing a daemon can be enough to permanently taint a lesser human. They know from experience that even the slightest of Chaos Taints can lead to a full-blown Daemon incursion that takes down half a Sector. They don't just kill people willy-nilla, they have a reason for everything they do. sure, it's morally grey (considering the fact that their murdering a few to save a billion more), but at least they do it to preserve other lives and keep ther species alive.
Chaos, on the other hand, doesn't give a rat's furry hindquarters about the species or morality period. All that they care about is raping, pillaging, murdering, and having fun. Unless you're nurgle, of course, in which case you're just trying to bring more people into the loving arms of your family.

Both evil but not equally evil. The imperium is just an different kind of evil.

IoM is evil by necessity of reality. Chaos is evil by parody of that reality.

The Imperium is evil because they have no choice but to be if Mankind is to survive. Chaos is evil because they can be, and want to be.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Ever noticed how everyone thinks Chaos is evil? I disagree. The Imperium is evil. Chaos are those few people brave enough to stand up against an injust, racist society, those who really value the freedom to worship who they want, be led by who they want and do whatever the heck they think they want, within reason.

Edgy post is edgy. I think if we compare the actions of the average servant of the Dark Gods with the average imperial citizen then the Imperium comes off better. Guardsman A is doing it to protect the Imperium, Space Marine A is doing it for the Chapter, blah blah, and the Chaos Space Marine is doing it out of jealousy, a desire for power etc.

I think chaos are worse. By quite a long way.

We fight the Imperium and commit all of our crimes only because they each and every one of them, even the lowliest human civilian, pledges themselves to protect our greatest enemy, when they come of age. We do give them a choice: if they renounce the False Emperor we let them be. But few do, because that would mean that the evil corpse God would eat their souls...


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By the way I'm a follower of Tzeentch not Nurgle...


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By the way I'm a follower of Tzeentch not Nurgle...

That's why people that don't worship the Emperor (neutral human worlds that aren't part of the Imperium, plus 99% of all of humanity before the end of the Heresy) have absolutely nothing to fear from Chaos.

Oh, wait...

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

We do give them a choice: if they renounce the False Emperor we let them be.

Care to name the True Emperor making our E false?

Chaos Spawn wrote:Ever noticed how everyone thinks Chaos is evil? I disagree. The Imperium is evil. Chaos are those few people brave enough to stand up against an injust, racist society, those who really value the freedom to worship who they want, be led by who they want and do whatever the heck they think they want, within reason.

... I agree with everything you said, except the last part. 'Within reason'? There is no such limit to Chaos. The closest Chaos gets to respecting limits is 'enlightened self-interest'.

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Yeah, lets stand up to the injustice and racist society of the Imperial Hierarchy by pillaging, raping, murdering, sacrificing, enslaving and infecting every innocent civillian that had no choice in the way they were brought up.

That sounds totally within reason to me....

Chaos are *Chaotic* Evil, Imperium are Chaotic Neutral, there is still a whole tier between them.

Imperium is Lawful Evil, Chaos is Chaotic Evil. Might call the Imperium Lawful Neutral at a stretch, but they are by no means Chaotic anything.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Ever noticed how everyone thinks Chaos is evil? I disagree. The Imperium is evil. Chaos are those few people brave enough to stand up against an injust, racist society, those who really value the freedom to worship who they want, be led by who they want and do whatever the heck they think they want, within reason.

If they hadn't turned to the Ruinous Powers, sure. I reckon Horus and his bunch could be classified as the "Lesser Evil".

BUT

They turned to the Ruinous Powers, making them more evil than the Imperium. How much more evil are they than the Imperium? That's really up to how you want to quantify it.

My Take on it:

(1) All Chaos Forces that serve the Ruinous Powers are more evil than the Imperium.

(2) The above point should not imply that the Imperium are the good guys, but should imply that they are definitely not as evil as Chaos is.

@Furyou Miko:

I reckon Lawful Evil doesn't quite describe the Imperium properly, but it is probably the best fit for them. Lawful Evil with a a bit of Lawful Neutral thrown in is probably how I'd put it. And I agree with you in the sense that the Imperium is not Chaotic anything.

The fact that one faction consists of deamon worshippers doesn't make the religious extremist / fascist technobararian faction the good guys.
The good guys might be the renegades outside of the empire don't who any of those evil gods.
Don't forget that the emperor demands more sacrifices then most of the gods that we now consider to be evil barbaric gods of the past.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
We do give them a choice: if they renounce the False Emperor we let them be.

That's untrue. Chaos does not let new converts be.
[quoteoldzoggy]Don't forget that the emperor demands more sacrifices then most of the gods that we now consider to be evil barbaric gods of the past.

 oldzoggy wrote:
The fact that one faction consists of deamon worshippers doesn't make the religious extremist / fascist technobararian faction the good guys.
The good guys might be the renegades outside of the empire don't who any of those evil gods.
Don't forget that the emperor demands more sacrifices then most of the gods that we now consider to be evil barbaric gods of the past.

Also, 1000 Psykers a day is less than .0000000001 percent of the population of humans (assuming there are 1 Quadrillion Humans, though there are likely more) in the Imperium. That's a raindrop in the ocean; It's nothing worth mentioning.

There are no good guys in 40k. None.

Of course Chaos is evil!

That's what makes Chaos fun!

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Ever noticed how everyone thinks Chaos is evil? I disagree. The Imperium is evil. Chaos are those few people brave enough to stand up against an injust, racist society, those who really value the freedom to worship who they want, be led by who they want and do whatever the heck they think they want, within reason.

Obvious Erebus is obvious.

Here's something to put a skew on this conversation. I'm actually arguing that the Ruinous Powers themselves are less evil than the False Emperor. And whoever questioned after the real Emperor, well we'll find out once the Crimson Path reaches Terra.


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 Psienesis wrote:
There are no good guys in 40k. None.

I agree. I merely wished for an interesting title. What we are arguing about is whether Chaos is LESS EVIL than the Imperium.


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 Psienesis wrote:
There are no good guys in 40k. None.

I agree. I merely wished for an interesting title. What we are arguing about is whether Chaos is LESS EVIL than the Imperium.

They are not. They are, at best, equally evil, through different means, but there are many examples of Chaos, especially its mortal followers, being evil for evil's sake.

The Night Lords would be a great example of such.

 Psienesis wrote:
They are not. They are, at best, equally evil, through different means, but there are many examples of Chaos, especially its mortal followers, being evil for evil's sake.

The Night Lords would be a great example of such.

And the followers of the Emperor have not committed worse? They have not annihilated entire planetary systems for the crime of not being human? Even when those systems were peaceful towards them?

Worse than the Night Lords? Not even remotely.

This is 40k. The sin (not crime, sin) of being non-human permits total extermination. This galaxy will belong to Mankind and Mankind alone. The Emperor wills it.

Yes worse than the Night Lords.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Worse than the Night Lords? Not even remotely.

This is 40k. The sin (not crime, sin) of being non-human permits total extermination. This galaxy will belong to Mankind and Mankind alone. The Emperor wills it.

This statement reinforces the whole argument of how evil the Imperium and False Emperor are...

A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.

The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.

Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.

it all depends on the perspective of the person really, the average chaos joe will hate the imperium with all of his spite for making his life so miserable and hopeless and worships chaos to try to get revenge and to get to the top no matter the cost

However the average imperial will hate chaos for the gruesome atrocities it commits

I'm feeling like I'm gonna get a lot of milage outta this one, but:

Yoink.

Anyone who seriously thinks the Imperium is more or as evil as Chaos has a pretty twisted view of things. The Night Lords will flay you alive for fun, and the Emperor's Children... well let's not even go there. The Imperium does plenty of evil things but it doesn't exist to do evil. Chaos pretty much does (or what do you think Khorne berserkers do?).

Oh and you also have things like the Iron Warriors feeding their slave workers by grinding the dead ones into nutritional paste. Or the Purge, who only exist to exterminate all life. And comparing the 1000 psykers a day to what the Word Bearers do is ridiculous. I get all warm and fuzzy inside thinking about how nice Chaos is.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Anyone who seriously thinks the Imperium is more or as evil as Chaos has a pretty twisted view of things. The Night Lords will flay you alive for fun, and the Emperor's Children... well let's not even go there. The Imperium does plenty of evil things but it doesn't exist to do evil. Chaos pretty much does (or what do you think Khorne berserkers do?).

Oh and you also have things like the Iron Warriors feeding their slave workers by grinding the dead ones into nutritional paste. Or the Purge, who only exist to exterminate all life. And comparing the 1000 psykers a day to what the Word Bearers do is ridiculous. I get all warm and fuzzy inside thinking about how nice Chaos is.

you gotta look at it from the perspective of the average joe if his life on random hive #2342 is so hopeless he will feel justified to fall to chaos to get a taste of freedom