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SO my buddy at the FLGS has been running a librarius conclave(white scars) on bikes along with a thunderwolf deathstar(6 wolves, wolf lord, 2 fenrisian wolves) He rolls on telepathy for invisibility and I've been struggling against it. I play Tau and have been using the new hunter contingent. Focusing my fire says that I get a +1 to BS, and I've been ruling that I therefore hit on 5s while snap firing, is this correct? Or do I have to hit on 6s with everything even if I focus fire with 3 or more units? This has been working decently well against his list, and I hope it's legal.

The other thing I've been doing is early warning override on everything that can take it. Then I feed him fire warrior squads for as much overwatch shooting as I can get. Since he's invisible, but I overwatch at BS2, do I hit on 5s or 6s? Hitting on 5s with my riptide has been a huge boon, but I've been thinking I need to switch from Ion riptide to Burst cannon riptide, I always run it with stim so that I can get a 5+/5+ FNP against his str10 power fists, so I think its worth it to try and overcharge the thing. I'd probably switch to SMS as well, instead of plasma rifle, for extra shots and potential wounds(he always runs every wolf with a storm shield/Pfist) I've also been finding my ghostkeel to not be working very well, I might run a second riptide with HBC as well, a bit more expensive but it may be worth it.

I've tried running some allied grav-gun biker marines but they aren't doing very much, and since I run them with Chapter Master Smashfragger they end up being expensive. I thought that he might be able to stand up to the wolves, but he proved less than adequate. I have guardsmen and eldar I can ally in as well, but I don't think they can bring me anything that could stand up to the woflstar.

Any answers to my above questions, or suggestions as to what I should run, would be greatly appreciated and helpful. Oh, and no comments about how I should just stop playing him since he's a cheeseball lol. I don't mind facing optimized lists and challenging myself to try and beat them.

The absolute best way to kill an invisibility star is to take a cullexus assassin in a FA drop pod. Drop the assassin within 12" of the deathstar unit on turn 1, cancel his invisibility, then proceed to unload all of your coordinated fire power tau into the unit.

Well as a general rule the order for multiple modifiers is: multiply/divide-add/subtract-set value.

Snapshots are a set value, so even after getting +100 BS and then multiplying it by 5, you still go back to 1 at the end of the equation, with the exception of markerlights that have a special "get around snapshots" line in their rules.

As for the overwatch wargear, (I'm assuming you mean the overwatch wargear based on the question, and not EWO, which is the interceptor wargear,) I'm assuming that it is set value bs2 for overwatch based on memory from the last time I read the tau book alone. If it just adds one or something than ignore the rest of this:

In classic GW fashion, the rules give two different ways to resolve it that end differently. You could rule that the codex rule trumps the brb rule in a case of advanced vs basic, which results in hitting on 5's, or you could claim "same time effects" which state the active player gets to determine the order. Unless he for some reason wants to be hit easier, he will probably choose for his effect to go on last and change your hit needed to 6's.

As long as you're both having fun, feel free to set the rules how you see fit though.

As for weaponry to use against him, there's one specific one. My man, Mr. Cool, the culexus assassin. Take a small marine/da/wolf/BA detachment, and snag one empty pod and one other thing using a pod. (Or just a second empty pod.) Put Mr. Cool in one of them. Generally you'll be holding him back until a later turn, but if he deploys aggressively and you're ready to max out your firepower on him, you could drop him turn 1. Land anywhere near the star and proceed to shoot right through the psychic shenanigans.

 Nalydyn wrote:
SO my buddy at the FLGS has been running a librarius conclave(white scars) on bikes along with a thunderwolf deathstar(6 wolves, wolf lord, 2 fenrisian wolves) He rolls on telepathy for invisibility and I've been struggling against it. I play Tau and have been using the new hunter contingent. Focusing my fire says that I get a +1 to BS, and I've been ruling that I therefore hit on 5s while snap firing, is this correct? Or do I have to hit on 6s with everything even if I focus fire with 3 or more units? This has been working decently well against his list, and I hope it's legal.

The other thing I've been doing is early warning override on everything that can take it. Then I feed him fire warrior squads for as much overwatch shooting as I can get. Since he's invisible, but I overwatch at BS2, do I hit on 5s or 6s? Hitting on 5s with my riptide has been a huge boon, but I've been thinking I need to switch from Ion riptide to Burst cannon riptide, I always run it with stim so that I can get a 5+/5+ FNP against his str10 power fists, so I think its worth it to try and overcharge the thing. I'd probably switch to SMS as well, instead of plasma rifle, for extra shots and potential wounds(he always runs every wolf with a storm shield/Pfist) I've also been finding my ghostkeel to not be working very well, I might run a second riptide with HBC as well, a bit more expensive but it may be worth it.

I've tried running some allied grav-gun biker marines but they aren't doing very much, and since I run them with Chapter Master Smashfragger they end up being expensive. I thought that he might be able to stand up to the wolves, but he proved less than adequate. I have guardsmen and eldar I can ally in as well, but I don't think they can bring me anything that could stand up to the woflstar.

Any answers to my above questions, or suggestions as to what I should run, would be greatly appreciated and helpful. Oh, and no comments about how I should just stop playing him since he's a cheeseball lol. I don't mind facing optimized lists and challenging myself to try and beat them.

Or just use ITC's rulings on invisibility as it is the single most broken thing in 40k. Essentially in all tournament play, invisibility is changed to firing at BS 1 instead of only snap shots and hitting on 5s in combat instead of 6s. additionally, all blasts, templates, psychic powers, stomp and anything auto hitting works normally against invisible units

Hmm interesting. Thanks for the responses guys, I was considering nerfing invisibility that way. Since it's a friendly match it doesn't matter too much. I'll probably make it full scatter for all blast weapons and still hitting on 6s in CC.

Next time I'm at my FLGS tourny I'll ask the event runner how he wants invisibility to be handled. He's an older guy who mostly plays Bolt Action now so he may not even know about how broken it is. I might make a post on the facebook page and see what the consensus is among the players for that tourny. Usually under 15 guys so not too hard to get all of their opinions.

I was thinking of the colexus, I don't have the model but I could proxy it easily enough to try it out. 140 points is pretty steep, but if it means I can potentially kill his psykers it's just fine with me.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Well as a general rule the order for multiple modifiers is: multiply/divide-add/subtract-set value.

Snapshots are a set value, so even after getting +100 BS and then multiplying it by 5, you still go back to 1 at the end of the equation, with the exception of markerlights that have a special "get around snapshots" line in their rules.

You arrived at the right answer, but took the wrong route of getting there--there's no need to reference the modifier order rules.

The Snap Shot rules outright say that no BS modifiers of any kind apply to Snap Shots, unless Snap Shots are specifically referenced as part of the rule. Markerlights are about the only thing that exists to modify normal Snap Shots--the new Tau rules (Hunter Contingent, Fire Team, etc) do not work against Invisibility.

As for BS2 Overwatch, it is a slightly more annoying situation, because Snap Shots aren't explicitly mentioned--but instead Overwatch, which is itself always fired as Snap Shots. Since it's already given precedence of modifying Snap Shots, I can't imagine anyone having a serious contention with it also working against Invisibility (though I'm sure you could find someone over in YMDC to take that stance).

It's also worth mentioning that you might be using the wrong piece of wargear--the EWO (Early Warning Override) is Interceptor. BS2 Overwatch is the Counterfire Defense System.

Use a Hunter Contingent so you can Coordinated Firepower with your army and get a Buffmander. The primary use of the Buffmander is to give twin-linked to everything, the ignore cover will be a bonus in this case.

For your heavy, take Stormsurge and Sniper Drones, getting multiple Sniper Drone Controllers for the networked markerlights. The main goal will be to throw as many twin-linked networked markerlights (I don't know how Sniper Drone Teams) Marker Drones. Keep them out of the Coordianted Fire and throw as many markerlights as you can at them so you can blow them away with the rest of your army as they all benefit from the +1 BS. With some a lot of luck (or Marker Drones), you will be hitting on 3s twin-linked with your whole army. The Stormsurges will have a massive weight of fire which will help strip wounds with their missiles, and their primary cannon can fire at something else.

Since it looks like it is an assault army, a Heavy Retribution Cadre may make an excellent auxiliary as simply choosing them as a target with two units from the formation will prevent them from running and halve their charge distance. Since the Stormsurges are Gargantuan Creatures, you can select multiple units as their target with them and shutdown several units. In this case, there is no need to take a Stormsurge in the heavy slot of the Hunter Cadre.

Finally, just to rub some salt in the wound, you can take a small CAD with two minimum Kroot or Strike Teams, who will just be camping objectives, and Darkstrider as the HQ. Attach Darkstrider to one of your Strike Team from the Hunter Cadre and he can join in the Coordinated Firepower, reducing the Thunderwolves' toughness to 4.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Nalydyn wrote:
SO my buddy at the FLGS has been running a librarius conclave(white scars) on bikes along with a thunderwolf deathstar(6 wolves, wolf lord, 2 fenrisian wolves) He rolls on telepathy for invisibility and I've been struggling against it. I play Tau and have been using the new hunter contingent. Focusing my fire says that I get a +1 to BS, and I've been ruling that I therefore hit on 5s while snap firing, is this correct? Or do I have to hit on 6s with everything even if I focus fire with 3 or more units? This has been working decently well against his list, and I hope it's legal.

The other thing I've been doing is early warning override on everything that can take it. Then I feed him fire warrior squads for as much overwatch shooting as I can get. Since he's invisible, but I overwatch at BS2, do I hit on 5s or 6s? Hitting on 5s with my riptide has been a huge boon, but I've been thinking I need to switch from Ion riptide to Burst cannon riptide, I always run it with stim so that I can get a 5+/5+ FNP against his str10 power fists, so I think its worth it to try and overcharge the thing. I'd probably switch to SMS as well, instead of plasma rifle, for extra shots and potential wounds(he always runs every wolf with a storm shield/Pfist) I've also been finding my ghostkeel to not be working very well, I might run a second riptide with HBC as well, a bit more expensive but it may be worth it.

I've tried running some allied grav-gun biker marines but they aren't doing very much, and since I run them with Chapter Master Smashfragger they end up being expensive. I thought that he might be able to stand up to the wolves, but he proved less than adequate. I have guardsmen and eldar I can ally in as well, but I don't think they can bring me anything that could stand up to the woflstar.

Any answers to my above questions, or suggestions as to what I should run, would be greatly appreciated and helpful. Oh, and no comments about how I should just stop playing him since he's a cheeseball lol. I don't mind facing optimized lists and challenging myself to try and beat them.

Or just use ITC's rulings on invisibility as it is the single most broken thing in 40k. Essentially in all tournament play, invisibility is changed to firing at BS 1 instead of only snap shots and hitting on 5s in combat instead of 6s. additionally, all blasts, templates, psychic powers, stomp and anything auto hitting works normally against invisible units

That ruling actually makes Invisibility more powerful in a ways against Tau. Firing at BS1 is a Set modifier, so you can't add to it. Now Markerlights can get around Snap-shooting, but they actually can't get around ITC's Invisibility modification.

But not to worry, that isn't the ITC's intent and when asked by Tau players, they still allow Markerlight to affect their modified Invisibility as per the Markerlight rules.

However, allowing blasts to hit Invisible units is good (under the ITC ruleset). I've actually lost an Invisible centstar due to Tau blasts in a tournament (against the Stormsurge, 2 riptides and a Y'vahra).

 Nilok wrote:
Use a Hunter Contingent so you can Coordinated Firepower with your army and get a Buffmander. The primary use of the Buffmander is to give twin-linked to everything, the ignore cover will be a bonus in this case.

For your heavy, take Stormsurge and Sniper Drones, getting multiple Sniper Drone Controllers for the networked markerlights. The main goal will be to throw as many twin-linked networked markerlights at them so you can blow them away with the rest of your army as they all benefit from the +1 BS. With some luck, you will be hitting on 3s twin-linked with your whole army. The Stormsurges will have a massive weight of fire which will help strip wounds with their missiles, and their primary cannon can fire at something else.

Sniper's markerlights aren't networked. Only Sky Rays, Remoras and XV84 upgrade have it.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
Use a Hunter Contingent so you can Coordinated Firepower with your army and get a Buffmander. The primary use of the Buffmander is to give twin-linked to everything, the ignore cover will be a bonus in this case.

For your heavy, take Stormsurge and Sniper Drones, getting multiple Sniper Drone Controllers for the networked markerlights. The main goal will be to throw as many twin-linked networked markerlights at them so you can blow them away with the rest of your army as they all benefit from the +1 BS. With some luck, you will be hitting on 3s twin-linked with your whole army. The Stormsurges will have a massive weight of fire which will help strip wounds with their missiles, and their primary cannon can fire at something else.

Sniper's markerlights aren't networked. Only Sky Rays, Remoras and XV84 upgrade have it.

Wow, derp. Shows how much I use Sniper Drone Teams. The Sun Shark also has a Networked Markerlight.

Scratch what I said about Sniper Drone Teams, use Squads of Marker Drones without joining them in the Coordinated Fire and pray.

 Nilok wrote:
Wow, derp. Shows how much I use Sniper Drone Teams. The Sun Shark also has a Networked Markerlight.

Scratch what I said about Sniper Drone Teams, use Squads of Marker Drones without joining them in the Coordinated Fire and pray.

While it's hard to ever give GW too much credit for balance foresight, this is presumably why there's such an enormous tax attached to Sky Rays in the Hunter Contingent. Aside from already being one of the best units in the old Codex, easy access to Networked Markerlights for Coordinated Fire would be absolutely insane.

Or maybe I am giving them too much credit and they just thought it would sell a bunch of Hammerheads (if so, they were super duper wrong).

DJ3 wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
Wow, derp. Shows how much I use Sniper Drone Teams. The Sun Shark also has a Networked Markerlight.

Scratch what I said about Sniper Drone Teams, use Squads of Marker Drones without joining them in the Coordinated Fire and pray.

While it's hard to ever give GW too much credit for balance foresight, this is presumably why there's such an enormous tax attached to Sky Rays in the Hunter Contingent. Aside from already being one of the best units in the old Codex, easy access to Networked Markerlights for Coordinated Fire would be absolutely insane.

Or maybe I am giving them too much credit and they just thought it would sell a bunch of Hammerheads (if so, they were super duper wrong).

I would say they thought about it, otherwise you would be able to take Darkstrider.

Thanks for the suggestions guys. Nilok, why would I take drone teams instead of pathfinders? Pathfinders are 3 points cheaper, giving me more markerlights for the points. I suppose that drones can run away better, but I haven't been able to put significant distance between me and his multiple melee threats, since he takes a stormwolf with termies in it(and then just drops them off on my doorstep) and the thunderowlf deathstar is so fast.

I don't own a stormsurge, and don't plan on buying one. I don't like using super-heavies. Transporting them is a PAIN and while the stormsurge has a LOT of firepower, the retribution cadre is too expensive both in points and in $

 Nalydyn wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions guys. Nilok, why would I take drone teams instead of pathfinders? Pathfinders are 3 points cheaper, giving me more markerlights for the points. I suppose that drones can run away better, but I haven't been able to put significant distance between me and his multiple melee threats, since he takes a stormwolf with termies in it(and then just drops them off on my doorstep) and the thunderowlf deathstar is so fast.

I don't own a stormsurge, and don't plan on buying one. I don't like using super-heavies. Transporting them is a PAIN and while the stormsurge has a LOT of firepower, the retribution cadre is too expensive both in points and in $

I like drones because even though they have a lower BS (2), they survive WAY better. +1 Toughness, and +1 better save help, but the real key is the ability to JSJ, meaning you can move you drones out of LoS after each shooting phase. Pathfinders just die way to easily

 Nalydyn wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions guys. Nilok, why would I take drone teams instead of pathfinders? Pathfinders are 3 points cheaper, giving me more markerlights for the points. I suppose that drones can run away better, but I haven't been able to put significant distance between me and his multiple melee threats, since he takes a stormwolf with termies in it(and then just drops them off on my doorstep) and the thunderowlf deathstar is so fast.

I don't own a stormsurge, and don't plan on buying one. I don't like using super-heavies. Transporting them is a PAIN and while the stormsurge has a LOT of firepower, the retribution cadre is too expensive both in points and in $

I prefer Marker Drones as they have much higher mobility and toughness, are still able to benefit from Ambushes and Feints to run before shooting, and can Jet Pack move away.
A Stormsurge has three support systems slots on it, so you can take a shield generator, EWO, and velocity tracker. Let them laugh when they are hit by a S: D missile.

You only need two Stormsurges and a single Ghostkeel to fill out the formation.
If monetary cost is a major factor, I highly recommend Gundam kits for a good proxy/custom conversion. They are cheap, have great quality, are poseable, and are snap together.

The 1/100 scale Heavy Arms Gundam fits the bill for a good Stormsurge, and the High Grade Heavy Arms Custom can sell for as low as $13
https://www.hlj.com/product/BAN59767/Gun
https://www.hlj.com/product/BAN973903/Gun ($25 Master Grade in picture)


For a custom Ghostkeel, a 1/144 scale Mobile Suit like the Rick-Dom may work well, if having armored shins for $10.
https://www.hlj.com/product/BAN923713/Gun

The new Hunter Contigent is pretty much designed to deal with deathstars, but its not a given you still have to work for it.

Fire any and all Marks first. Once you get some, even a single one will help, focus fire with everything that can and boost them all with the marks you got via Coordinated Fire, since that is the only way to modify snapfire outside of overwatch to my knowledge. Markerlights via Coordinated Fire will buff everything involved, so 1 Mark for +1BS even when snapping for every unit involved.

Its not a guarantee, its quite possible you can wiff entirely, but its significantly more likely than most armies. My orks pretty much have to hope i scatter my SAG onto it, which is insanely unlikely.

As others have stated, BS modifiers are before the Snapfire rule takes effect. Coordinated fire or Fireteam or any formation bonus therefore doesnt apply to Snapfires or Overwatch. Markerlights specifically say otherwise, though you still cant fire blasts oddly enough.
As for Counterfire against an Invisible unit for overwatch, i literally dont see any way someone can deny that with invis. Overwatch is already defined as Snapshots, and Counterfire specifically modifies Overwatch. Invisibility doesnt say you can only To Hit of 6 with ranged attacks, it says Snapshots - well, im already snapshooting, so i dont care.

Also @Nilok, is it just me or is that 1/144 Mobile Suit look a LOT like something out of Megaman X lol.

The Doms and Rick-Doms predate the Mega Man series by about 7 years and Mega Man X by 13, so they probably inspired the designers at Capcom.

notredameguy10 wrote:

I like drones because even though they have a lower BS (2), they survive WAY better. +1 Toughness, and +1 better save help, but the real key is the ability to JSJ, meaning you can move you drones out of LoS after each shooting phase. Pathfinders just die way to easily

With the upcoming Mont'ka book, one of the new formations called the Drone-Net grants all drones in your army +1 BS so long as at least two units from the formation are on the table. This basically solves the problems of their low BS.

 Nilok wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

I like drones because even though they have a lower BS (2), they survive WAY better. +1 Toughness, and +1 better save help, but the real key is the ability to JSJ, meaning you can move you drones out of LoS after each shooting phase. Pathfinders just die way to easily

With the upcoming Mont'ka book, one of the new formations called the Drone-Net grants all drones in your army +1 BS so long as at least two units from the formation are on the table. This basically solves the problems of their low BS.

True, but now there is also a formation that give pathfinders shrouded; meaning they will usually have a 2+ cover save and always a 3+ (as long as in some sort of terrain). hmmmm...

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

I like drones because even though they have a lower BS (2), they survive WAY better. +1 Toughness, and +1 better save help, but the real key is the ability to JSJ, meaning you can move you drones out of LoS after each shooting phase. Pathfinders just die way to easily

With the upcoming Mont'ka book, one of the new formations called the Drone-Net grants all drones in your army +1 BS so long as at least two units from the formation are on the table. This basically solves the problems of their low BS.

True, but now there is also a formation that give pathfinders shrouded; meaning they will usually have a 2+ cover save and always a 3+ (as long as in some sort of terrain). hmmmm...

And then there is the Air Superiority Cadre of three Razersharks, which simply grants D3 markerlights in your shooting phase to any unit, which gets around invisibility.

Unfortunately I will never buy either of the Tau fliers because they suck in comparison to the rest of their FA options, except in this specific circumstance.