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 Grimtuff wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
It was totally obvious. That's how another poster knew what I meant and you didn't.

As for the other gak, I'm not touching it here, it's OT and I've no intention of making another thread all about you.

Would have helped if he read the paragraph that preceded it....

Today we learned that context is important.

Wheel of Morality, turn turn, turn....
Show us the lesson that we must learn....
*Gives Wheel a spin*
Whirrrrr

BANKRUPT!

Suddenly it all makes sense! ANVILS FOR EVERYBODY!

*Clang!*

The Auld Grump - I need to watch more Animaniacs....

@Grimtuff: thanks for that...
on a second reading, i see where Az was coming from now...
i did apologize for the misunderstanding...

@Az: woah, dude...
i am not trying to say that my choices are superior in any way, shape, or form...
all of our opinions are equally valid...

if you are trying to type the way i do, your line would have read:

"i mean, just the way you format tells me something..."

each line is a sentence

to get back on topic...
i think GW's minis do have good value, but i wouldn't complain if they were cheaper...
i do agree with you about the overhead being too high for the company to lower prices much...
GW have certainly backed themselves into a corner...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Games Workshop stuff being compared to $250 sunglasses? That sounds about right, though for most people that would be an attack on GW rather than a defence

actually, i was comparing the shades to my new laptop (which i got a great deal on), but the two being the same price got me thinking about Azreal's posts about value...
i feel like i got equal value for equal price, but my point was that not many people would agree with me, which the responses have confirmed...

to compare a $36 dollar GW mini, such as the Tech-Priest Dominus, to a...what???
i guess a Hi-Tech mini might compare, even though they are resin (which is more of a hassle) instead of plastic, and don't come with the head and weapon options...
Hi-Tech certainly comes in cheaper, but doesn't look as cool, in my opinion...
they look like press-molded early Scibor stuff...
it does the job, for sure, but it doesn't inspire me at all...

maybe compare the T-P.D. to a Forge World Dominus...
their Dominus is one Squid less, but doesn't have the 20% off readily available, and doesn't look as cool to me...
those things made my purchase of the plastic model a very nice buy...

which brings us back to the topic at hand...
i do think that a return of SG will be a good thing...
plastic Van Saars and Eschers (and any other SG minis really) would be great...
even though i have most of the Necromunda minis, and the original Confrontation (not meaning Rackham, but the original Necromunda style rules from the White Dwarf) minis, some awesome plastics (and an expanded player base, which would hopefully lead to commissions to paint said new plastics) would be awesome...
i'd buy them, but then you knew that already...

the setting of the planet Necromunda has always been one of my favorite parts of 40K, as you really got down to the micro level of background...
Kal Jericho, The Redeemer, Mad Donna, and so many more great bits of inspiring art, fiction, and models...
it will be interesting to see if anything new comes about, or if everything will just be a rehash...
exciting times ahead!!!

cheers
jah

Value is obviously subjective. I think that point is so obvious that it doesn't really need stating We just went off on a massive tangent with that one.

I agree that GW are up against the wall with their prices. At this point I'm not convinced they would actually shift a whole lot more product. A few years ago, maybe, but I think they've pared-down their customer base to primarily be people who don't care about the prices and poor rules and I don't know if lowering prices would automatically bring back their old customers who have now moved on to other games.

The gap between their revenue and expenses isn't big enough to make lowering the price anything but a big gamble.

Auldgrump:

I see most people talking about prices but that's not even the biggest deal for me.

Poor rules is the biggest reason why I haven't played a game of 40k in about 2 years. I played all through 5th and most of 6th but really tired of all this random forging a narrative garbage and removing a lot of special characters and army rules.

Give me back my old gk codex so I can run mordrak bomb andI'll happily start purchasing 40k stuff again. Maybe some people can convince me that 7th ed 40k is actually not to bad? Otherwise I'm in for a long wait until 8th.

Should find out next year if they've switched to a 2-year cycle or not. Not so long a wait.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Value is obviously subjective. I think that point is so obvious that it doesn't really need stating We just went off on a massive tangent with that one.

I agree that GW are up against the wall with their prices. At this point I'm not convinced they would actually shift a whole lot more product. A few years ago, maybe, but I think they've pared-down their customer base to primarily be people who don't care about the prices and poor rules and I don't know if lowering prices would automatically bring back their old customers who have now moved on to other games.

The gap between their revenue and expenses isn't big enough to make lowering the price anything but a big gamble.

yeah, sorry about that massive tangent

so, now the question becomes, as per the OP, will bringing more games, and thus more variety back to the stable, bring in more revenue???
the majority of replies on the subject seem to pretty positive about this move...
the reviews on the game-play of the new Battle at Calth box, as well as the value of the minis included, seem to be very positive...

it does seem like the change of CEO is going to have a positive effect on the moves that GW are making...
they are starting to become less insular, and seem to realize that having all their eggs in one basket is not a good idea...
even if they are still only relying on variations of the 40K setting, having the three different scales of play (Necro, 40K, and Epic) was always a good idea...
too bad the bean-counters didn't agree...
i think the new CEO is making the right move, personally...

@tuiman: even as a painter, i totally agree with the bit about needing to bring back a lot of the special characters that have been lost...
there is always a demand for a wicked paint job on the centerpiece models, and those are the heroes that are really inspirational to bring to life...
i built a really cool Mordrak using Draigo's body, but now rhe guy who bought it has to use it as a normal Grand Master:(...
not as cool as a guy who has ghost knights following him around, at all...

it will be interesting to see what is in store for the next Guard Codex, because a lot of people were really bummed about the loss of Marbo...
will he be back, will they lose more SC's, or will it be business as usual???
how long will it take for the new CEO's moves to hit the market???
i don't think we are there yet, and the Guard Codex will just have the "buy more minis" uber-formations, and i've heard that SG sculpting hasn't started yet at Forge World, so i doubt we'll see any signifigant changes in the next six months...
after that, things may just get very interesting...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Value is obviously subjective. I think that point is so obvious that it doesn't really need stating We just went off on a massive tangent with that one.

I agree that GW are up against the wall with their prices. At this point I'm not convinced they would actually shift a whole lot more product. A few years ago, maybe, but I think they've pared-down their customer base to primarily be people who don't care about the prices and poor rules and I don't know if lowering prices would automatically bring back their old customers who have now moved on to other games.

The gap between their revenue and expenses isn't big enough to make lowering the price anything but a big gamble.

yeah, sorry about that massive tangent

so, now the question becomes, as per the OP, will bringing more games, and thus more variety back to the stable, bring in more revenue???
the majority of replies on the subject seem to pretty positive about this move...
the reviews on the game-play of the new Battle at Calth box, as well as the value of the minis included, seem to be very positive...

it does seem like the change of CEO is going to have a positive effect on the moves that GW are making...
they are starting to become less insular, and seem to realize that having all their eggs in one basket is not a good idea...
even if they are still only relying on variations of the 40K setting, having the three different scales of play (Necro, 40K, and Epic) was always a good idea...
too bad the bean-counters didn't agree...
i think the new CEO is making the right move, personally... jah

What you need to keep in mind is that it always 'seems positive'. Fans tend to exist in an echo chamber, and negative opinions on the internet are *always* the minority. Fantasy 8th edition was the best fantasy had ever been.

That's why i look at the financials. Lots of people are buying BaC it seems, i can believe that. But is that additional money being spent, or is it money being cannabalized from other sales. Are there new customers being brought in by it, or is it the same dwindling pool? We'll know in january.

@Torga: are we reading the same forum, because i see a lot of negative opinions posted on here???
people don't seem shy about airing their grievances...
I remember plenty of complaints about WFB 8th when it dropped...

good point about the cannibalizing of sales, though...
it would be interesting to see a poll of how many people bought BaC instead of, rather than in addition to, other Space Marine kits...
i would, of course, fall on the side of the customer who bought BaC in addition to all of the other SM kits...

game play reviews tend to be brutally honest, from my experience...
people have lambasted plenty of GW's efforts, but BaC is getting a good reception where others haven't...


if word-of-mouth is GW's main marketing strategy, and loads of people are telling their mates how awesome the SG games and minis are, then it stands to reason that they would bring in new customers...
there are still new people picking up 40K and AoS all the time...
the problem is that there are not enough of those people, AND disgruntled vets are leaving at the same time...

i look forward to January...
i think that profits will be up from last year (no new 4 Million Squid website to pay for this time around), but i don't know what will be reflected in the next report...
probably just AoS and 40K...
given that, i'll be looking at next years first half report to show what BaC has done...
the AoS starter has sold pretty well, and BaC looks to be selling even better...

cheers
jah

Well, i was back on warseer at the time, so yeah probably some differences there. But the negativity, to me, seems to be increasing as sales drop. I can't think of anything in gw history to rival the AoS gakstorm that has sprung up, and that includes dreadfleet. The other thing about negativity is that it can be a relatively 'good' thing - it means dissatisfied customers are still following the product, even if they're not actively playing/buying. When sales are down and all the customer reviews are golden, that's when you have serious problems.

Cannibalizing of sales is an interesting one to ponder. It could just be doing well and maybe they'll have a revenue boost this year, who knows? As i said, i remember a lot of vocal positive opinions on 8th and on end times (both in terms of quality and sales), and the end result in the financials was a loss in revenue. But again, different forum and different time. What i remember is the guy that first leaked the AoS rumour got massively jumped on for doing so, and he ended up being right.

I'm not sure profits how profits will end up. There was no website in the last report either, iirc, so i guess it'll largely depend on AoS, BaC and potentially that new tw:wf computer game coming out. My magic 8 ball says: don't count on it.

The report we see next will be the interim report in January, which covers the 6 months up until the end of this month (so little/no Christmas trade.)

Therefore there will be time for GW to fix it/screw it up by the FYE.

Personally I don't expect radical change, perhaps a small increase in revenue and profit, perhaps another small drop. AOS replaced an allegedly flat and poorly performing line, so any spike will have been noticeable, equally giant gold Sigmorons for the car park don't come cheap...

Yeah, but at launch is one of the milestones of success that can be judged. Of course it'll be somewhat obscured by the panic buying that'll have taken place, but it'll still give us an idea of how they're going compared to that time last year. I expect a 40k reboot by the EoFY, which will muddy the water on AoS's results if so.

Also, it's not a gold statue, it's an ur-gold statue.

@Azreal13: Sigmorons, really???
was that even necessary???
now you see why we clash...

the Stormcast Eternals are quite nice models...
the big guy in the car park is no fitting replacement for a Space Marine, though:(...
i wonder if he is still stashed in a corner under the stairs???

@Troga: magic 8 ball may just be right...
i think that we will see some good numbers, but i could be wrong...

cheers
jah

 Torga_DW wrote:
Yeah, but at launch is one of the milestones of success that can be judged. Of course it'll be somewhat obscured by the panic buying that'll have taken place, but it'll still give us an idea of how they're going compared to that time last year. I expect a 40k reboot by the EoFY, which will muddy the water on AoS's results if so.

Also, it's not a gold statue, it's an ur-gold statue.

Is that better or worse than normal gold?

IIRC 5th-6th 40K barely caused a bump in revenue, especially in comparison to other Edition change years. So, with that being the case, replacing an even less well played system with a broadly ill-received one will likely be immeasurable.

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Azreal13: Sigmorons, really???
was that even necessary???
now you see why we clash...

Because you take it all too seriously and can't let a harmless play on words slide?

It's nothing to do with you, you didn't make them, I wasn't addressing your post nor was I addressing any sort of group you could class yourself as.

Chill out.

@Azreal13: i'm chill as can be...
just asking if that sort of trash talk is necessary...

cheers
jah

I was referring to an inanimate object, if your sensibilities are so delicate you can't bear to hear somebody refer to your man dollies with anything but the utmost respect, this isn't the best environment for you to be in.

I'm certainly not going to censor my language because someone on the internet does the equivalent of butting into my conversation in the coffee shop queue.

So, for the second time this evening, anything to contribute to topic, or are you just here to nitpick other's word choices?

no, i'm not just here to nitpick other's word choice...
i actually don't like internet arguments...
after apologizing for the early misunderstanding, i have contributed to this topic, have i not???
it isn't my fault that your humor doesn't always translate online...
my humor doesn't seem to come across online either, especially if you think that i am "delicate", or "take it all too seriously"...
nobody who knows me would use those words to describe me, ever...

i do try to give you props where it is due...
Sigmarines is one thing, but Sigmorons is a step over the line, unless you are trying to pick a fight with fans of the Stormcast Eternals...

i don't see how commenting on what you say in a public forum is the equivalent of butting in on a conversation in a queue...
that is a very baffling statement...
aren't we all hear to interact with each other, or is there a corner i should go stand in because you don't want me commenting on your posts???

i don't expect you to censor your language...
i just asked if it was really necessary to make such a lame joke, when you know that it is going to rub some people the wrong way...

i have not make one derogatory comment on your character, but you have been more than willing to give me both barrels over the last two pages...
maybe make it less personal, huh???
one day you might even bowl me over by saying something nice about my work, instead of attacking my character...

cheers
jah

I think the Sig-whatevers are like every other model GW makes these days. Technically superb, but lacking in imagination and fall flat.

That lack of imagination is also evident in the rules, the new fluff and the overall direction of AOS.

 jah-joshua wrote:
no, i'm not just here to nitpick other's word choice...
i actually don't like internet arguments...
after apologizing for the early misunderstanding, i have contributed to this topic, have i not???
it isn't my fault that your humor doesn't always translate online...
my humor doesn't seem to come across online either, especially if you think that i am "delicate", or "take it all too seriously"...
nobody who knows me would use those words to describe me, ever...

i do try to give you props where it is due...
Sigmarines is one thing, but Sigmorons is a step over the line, unless you are trying to pick a fight with fans of the Stormcast Eternals...

i don't see how commenting on what you say in a public forum is the equivalent of butting in on a conversation in a queue...
that is a very baffling statement...
aren't we all hear to interact with each other, or is there a corner i should go stand in because you don't want me commenting on your posts???

i don't expect you to censor your language...
i just asked if it was really necessary to make such a lame joke, when you know that it is going to rub some people the wrong way...

i have not make one derogatory comment on your character, but you have been more than willing to give me both barrels over the last two pages...
maybe make it less personal, huh???
one day you might even bowl me over by saying something nice about my work, instead of attacking my character...

cheers
jah

Just want to point out that you did something very similar to him...

it is the same reason i buy GW minis versus some of the cheaper "not-(insert model here)" that are available cheaper from another manufacturer...

Most models out there are not GW replacement minis (technically most models are historical/modern models but whatever). Your comment was also clearly there to insinuate you don't buy rip offs. Hinting that model manufacturers without the GW logo are merely sub par copiers etc.

Now I don't care, I realize it's your opinion (a wrong one at that), but to get annoyed when someone refers to something you like as a sigmoron when earlier referring to all non GW models as lower grade rip offs is a little hypercritical.

In short, get over it man. You are not a Sigmarine.

@Azreal: sorry, mate, i wasn't trying to pick a fight...

@Swasta: i am over it...

what exactly am i wrong about???
i'm stating my perspective, nothing more...

when did i ever say that non-GW models are low-grade rip-offs???
please don't put words in my mouth...
i don't hint at, or insinuate, anything...
i say exactly what i mean...
Hi-Tech models, while less expensive, don't inspire me...
i never said they are GW rip-offs, i was saying they are proxies, which is what "not-(insert model here)" meant...
there is nothing wrong with people liking them, or their price, more, but they are not for me...
same goes for the Kabuki Primarchs that people have been buying up during the current sale...
if people like them, that's great, but i prefer the FW versions...
what is wrong with that???
i'm not passing judgement on anyone, just stating my preference...

if i want GW to survive, and release more of the models that make me happy, than i need to be willing to put my money where my mouth is...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Azreal: sorry, mate, i wasn't trying to pick a fight...

@Swasta: i am over it...

what exactly am i wrong about???
i'm stating my perspective, nothing more...

when did i ever say that non-GW models are low-grade rip-offs???
please don't put words in my mouth...
i don't hint at, or insinuate, anything...
i say exactly what i mean...
Hi-Tech models, while less expensive, don't inspire me...
i never said they are GW rip-offs, i was saying they are proxies, which is what "not-(insert model here)" meant...
there is nothing wrong with people liking them, or their price, more, but they are not for me...
same goes for the Kabuki Primarchs that people have been buying up during the current sale...
if people like them, that's great, but i prefer the FW versions...
what is wrong with that???
i'm not passing judgement on anyone, just stating my preference...

if i want GW to survive, and release more of the models that make me happy, than i need to be willing to put my money where my mouth is...

cheers
jah

The Kabuki Primarchs are a waste of money if you ask me.
They serve the proxy purpose but come nowhere near the Primarchs from FW.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Today we learned that context is important.

And that words are important.

The word "genuine" was used at least once...

 jah-joshua wrote:
no, i'm not just here to nitpick other's word choice...

Could'a fooled me.

And Az is right. If you can't take the heat...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Today we learned that context is important.

And that words are important.

The word "genuine" was used at least once...

 jah-joshua wrote:
no, i'm not just here to nitpick other's word choice...

Could'a fooled me.

And Az is right. If you can't take the heat...

i'm still here, mate...
i can take it just fine...

cheers
jah

Enough with the side story about who can and can't take it, and let's stay on topic

Hmmm, I am going to take a look at my experience with Warhammer Fantasy editions, but only in a very general fashion.

My favorite edition is 3rd - in part because it and the first edition of Warhammer Fantasy Role Play complimented each other quite nicely.

But the editions that I played the most were 4th and 5th editions.

4th and 5th were also the editions when I made the most purchases for the game, having several playable armies.

6th... I had started fading out on - more to do with disliking the direction that GW was taking than anything to do with the rules themselves. Still played it, but not as often.

7th... I played very little, and bought less. And I began playing Kings of War as my go-to fantasy wargame.

8th - my entire group switched to Kings of War, with randomness being the most cited reason, followed closely by the hard cover army books.

AoS... was dead on arrival. (8th killed Warhammer, AoS blew it up....)

During the period between 6th and AoS, there were and are games and campaigns of both Mordheim and Necromunda. (Each campaign running for a year, then resetting.) These have been the most consistently played games in my group.

Recently, Deadzone has made inroads on the Necromunda crowd... kinda. Instead of supplanting Necromunda it is being played by the same folks, on a different night. (And the terrain has been seeing use in both games as well.)

People have been buying miniatures for both Mordheim and Necromunda - with GW getting more sales for Mordheim than for Necromunda, but more non-GW figures being used for Mordheim. (Mordheim has the larger group, and people are using GW for the standard warriors, while using non-GW for characters.)

Most of the Necromunda players are using old figures - the exceptions being DuLaque and, more recently, Escher. (Heresy Trenchcoat gangers and Raging Heroes Jailbirds, to be exact. I am one of the folks using the Heresy figures - even though DuLaque is not my favorite gang. I have the figures for a Fallout game.) Other old figures include Starship Troopers minis for Van Saar, with the rest being purchased from eBay.

The Auld Grump

I will still be afraid that with GW's record, any game brought back with new product will be more expensive to play than the current collector's market makes the same game right now.

Availability would be the only real boon over whats being played right now of Specialist Games. I mean, look at the incredible and impressive lengths the fans have done to keep all the versions of Epic alive and improve upon what GW originally put out.

I don't see GW doing better (in terms of rules mechanics), though FW and GW do put out damn pretty models nowadays. I'm not confident they could stick with any of the games for more than a few releases, either.

I really want to see any of my favorite games from those days of yore come back (I mean, I am 33, and got into Necro when it came out, when I was in 7th grade!), but man, 20 years of GW have soured my confidence.

I'm just not sure how GW can overturn these days of $35 monopose plastic figures and boutique pricing, when the Specialist Games, other than Epic and Warmaster, always suffered from being playable without needing large numbers of repeat purchases. (Unless you are buying multiple gangs for either Necro or Mordheim).

 AegisGrimm wrote:

I'm just not sure how GW can overturn these days of $35 monopose plastic figures and boutique pricing, when the Specialist Games, other than Epic and Warmaster, always suffered from being playable without needing large numbers of repeat purchases. (Unless you are buying multiple gangs for either Necro or Mordheim).

They could take a long term view on these games. 40k started as Rogue Trader and needed years of refinement before it became the thing that keeps GW alive. If we assume GW has 6 specialist games (for simplicity/argument's sake) then they could release stuff for each game twice a year (or quarterly but less stuff each time) and have a full release schedule for their Specialist Games brand. They could create a starter box and all the default armies/gangs/BB teams in plastic and it would be an investment for the long term. After that they could release bigger stuff in plastic and some stuff in resin (collector stuff that is not needed that much).

The bigger boxes could be stuff like expansion packs for other dungeons (Warhammer Quest), or a smaller than starter box with rules for Arbites plus a full Arbites gang with a multitude of options. That's something every Necromunda campaign could need at least one of or how about this season's Star Players? Have an online BB league/campaign and let the members vote for 20/30/40 players/soon to be star players (useable by most teams) they grew in their teams and create a cheap-ish box with all of them included, add their rules, some more cards (items, dirty tricks), and even rules expansions for other stuff to spend your money on (stadium expansion? bribing reporters, whatever). For Epic/Gothic they could release campaign packs with enough miniatures and rules so that you can expand two or three of the default armies into a different subcategory that fits with the flavour of the campaign. So you and a friend could buy one of these and both get stuff, one to expand their Space Marines into a specific chapter and another to create a specific Ork clan in the campaign (of course you would need some of the above mentioned default plastics to play the campaign too).

The idea would be to create the default in plastic (upfront investment) and then give the games continuous support with cheap-ish plastic boxes that are useful for many players instead of just one subgroup. You don't get the same economies of scale that you get with Space Marines but each box would be useful for multiple factions. Some people might even start a new army so they can use all parts of the box. With a regular, albeit not monthly, release schedule people wouldn't feel like GW abandoning their new games. FW already does something similar with their campaign books and resin miniatures. Just make it with less delays, more regularity, more plastic, and more compartmentalized in boxes (instead of it being an endless supply of FW resin in the online store). Make it easy to jump in and just as easy to expand if people want more of it.

But cheap-ish plastic boxes 'devalue' their business. The only way forwards for them is constantly higher prices. Here in oz, the new single-figure models are now $53 and $56 dollars. Regardless of the other factors involved in re/releasing specialist games, price is going to be an issue and a big one. Getting existing customers from their pool to continue spending isn't enough - they need to attract new customers to replace losses, and they present far too many barriers in different forms to effectively do that.

 Torga_DW wrote:
But cheap-ish plastic boxes 'devalue' their business. The only way forwards for them is constantly higher prices. Here in oz, the new single-figure models are now $53 and $56 dollars. Regardless of the other factors involved in re/releasing specialist games, price is going to be an issue and a big one. Getting existing customers from their pool to continue spending isn't enough - they need to attract new customers to replace losses, and they present far too many barriers in different forms to effectively do that.

Australian prices have gone crazy. I know we've been saying that for years but holy feth I saw the Lord Celestant in store the other day, $55 for a single infantry character that comes on a single small sprue That is just insanity. If I saw a small single sprue model like that on sale anywhere else I wouldn't expect to pay more than about $10 for it.

there really is no positive spin to put on the mark-up that the Aussies and Kiwis have to deal with...
when your best discount options only bring you to parity with the US and UK retail price, and we can get another 25% off on top of that, i totally get why you guys would be unwilling to buy direct from your local GW shops...

when i see guys in the UK, Canada, and the US complaining about prices, i don't really see the issue, but when you guys are paying so much more than we have to, i totally get the gripes from Down Under...


@Skink: what company is selling a single plastic character for $10aus???
i don't see any HIPS with any kind of good quality retailing for that price from any company on the market...

cheers
jah