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Don't want to pay $75 for the new Enginseer?

Then buy the metal one for $11.50. He's still up on the US webstore.

I like how the Target Sighted (or whatever it is) rule for the Artillery Formation allows any friendly model with a voxcaster to spot, not just the smuck from the Command Squad.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Don't want to pay $75 for the new Enginseer?

Then buy the metal one for $11.50. He's still up on the US webstore.

I already have two of the metal ones. Making a new model a requirement/tax to take some of these formations is really gakky to new players or people who just don't want to deal with having to buy an enginseer.

Well, if this is all that Guard are indeed getting, (according to both Sad Panda & Lady Atia), then it's almost certain that Chaos & Tyranids are likewise going to get nerfed into extinction.

Of course the only ways to play are combined arms and infantry horde. I'll keep with my personally written codex.

So, I am actually kind of happy with this IG release. It places an emphasis on mechanized play, which is how I was playing before and it seems like everything is pretty fluff-friendly. It isn't super OP or an auto-take, but it is a nice change of pace from the standard CAD way of building an army.

The formations are (predictably) model heavy but I like how they finally gave some of the other vehicles the ability to give orders to themselves. Nothing that seems to over the top, which must disappoint some of the people who want a more Eldar-esque kind of buff.

 Grimskul wrote:
The formations are (predictably) model heavy but I like how they finally gave some of the other vehicles the ability to give orders to themselves. Nothing that seems to over the top, which must disappoint some of the people who want a more Eldar-esque kind of buff.

I think you mean want a more "every faction release up until now" kind of buff. Necrons, Eldar, Khorne Daemonkin, SM, DA, Tau, Raven Guard and White Scars were all massive power level increases for that faction with their new dexes, or new detachment and formations in the case of Raven Guard and White Scars. This just shows that GW loves to shaft the guard.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Well, if this is all that Guard are indeed getting, (according to both Sad Panda & Lady Atia), then it's almost certain that Chaos & Tyranids are likewise going to get nerfed into extinction.

The Necron decurion gives bonuses to Resurrection Protocols. The SM one gives bonuses to Combat Doctrines. The IG one gives bonuses to Orders.

The CSM decurion will give bonuses to Chaos Boon rolls. And will be just awful. Mark my words.

 ultimentra wrote:
This just shows that GW loves to shaft the guard.

They have might have changed their rules or points though, we'll still have to wait and see!

 alasta wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
This just shows that GW loves to shaft the guard.

They have might have changed their rules or points though, we'll still have to wait and see!

Nope!

Basically everything says "See Codex: Astra Militarum".

Now, that doesn't actually preclude them from doing changes later on to the book. By saying "See Codex: Astra Militarum" and just being the Formations with no points? It lets this book stay around even when AM gets a redo.

Screenshots from the AM/IG codex are circulating on FB. Apologies if it has been posted before.

http://imgur.com/a/WGbXH

How many points will we have to spend on command squads and enginseers to run most of these?

 Breotan wrote:
Screenshots from the AM/IG codex are circulating on FB. Apologies if it has been posted before.

http://imgur.com/a/WGbXH

Whoever is saying it's from the AM/IG book is mistaken. This is from Mont'ka which comes out this week.

Hell, this shot even has a pair of Formations that say "See Codex: Astra Militarum"!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Findslo wrote:
How many points will we have to spend on command squads and enginseers to run most of these?

No required upgrades for any of them, so the bare minimums?

Wait a second......I can finally run a Command Squad & Yarrick?
Because If I take a CAD and the artillery commander, the Formation ISNT part of the primary detachment.......Im happy guys....so happy.

 Vector Strike wrote:
I think you'll like this, guys:

http://imgur.com/a/WGbXH

While these are all really cool rules...

WHY WERENT THESE ALREADY IN THE CODEX?!?!?!

Seriously, so many rules that make sense for guard

*Vox casters being able to call in fire support and give barrage weapons twin linked on the target

*The fire and advance order allowing units to shoot as if stationary

*company command squads being able to issue orders to artillery

*more command vehicles like command sentinels

*Vehicles testing as an actual leadership value instead of that random +4 malarky

*encouraging orders like FRFSRF being able to be issued to multiple squads of the same platoon at once, as a single order, and have them shoot the same target.

*Artillery rules that can actually pin something for once


It hurts to see so many flavorful and cool ideas and know that they won't be in the actual codex, but instead be in some random, and more than likely limited edition, campaign book that sells out in like two days.

EDIT:

And to the guys claiming Guard never get anything good...

Did you seriously not play 5th edition? We were the second most hated codex back then, right behind Grey Knights. Look up "Leafblower" on the tactics forum and check out all the trouble people were having against it.

Or look up 5th ed's Vendetta rules sometime. Man those were a blast. Not to mention cheaper chimeras with 5 fire points, no hull points and a laughably weak penetration table making walls of chimeras nearly unstoppable.

Seriously guys, we have not always been GW's punching bag. Heck, I remember when Eldar was considered the weakest codex. This stuff always goes around in a circle. What's strong today will be pitiful tomorrow. What's pitiful today will be OP tomorrow. This is just how GW is.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
I think you'll like this, guys:

http://imgur.com/a/WGbXH

While these are all really cool rules...

WHY WERENT THESE ALREADY IN THE CODEX?!?!?!

Seriously, so many rules that make sense for guard

*Vox casters being able to call in fire support and give barrage weapons twin linked on the target

*The fire and advance order allowing units to shoot as if stationary

*company command squads being able to issue orders to artillery

*more command vehicles like command sentinels

*Vehicles testing as an actual leadership value instead of that random +4 malarky

*encouraging orders like FRFSRF being able to be issued to multiple squads of the same platoon at once, as a single order, and have them shoot the same target.

*Artillery rules that can actually pin something for once


It hurts to see so many flavorful and cool ideas and know that they won't be in the actual codex, but instead be in some random, and more than likely limited edition, campaign book that sells out in like two days

The most likely explanation is a new writer IMO. The writer who did the late 6th ed codexes and the early 7th like DE, Orks, and AM I hope got fired. The guy/team that's been writing the new ones (except eldar) deserves a raise.

 alasta wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
This just shows that GW loves to shaft the guard.

They have might have changed their rules or points though, we'll still have to wait and see!

Most of the rules aren't going to change. And the rules aren't what makes the Guard weak (although the rules that we got pale in comparison to the Necron & SM). It's that we pay way too much for crappy horde shooting. The rules we have are grossly overvalued for no obvious reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 alasta wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
This just shows that GW loves to shaft the guard.

They have might have changed their rules or points though, we'll still have to wait and see!

Most of the rules aren't going to change. And the rules aren't what makes the Guard weak (although the rules that we got pale in comparison to the Necron & SM). It's that we pay way too much for crappy horde shooting. The rules we have are grossly overvalued for no obvious reason.

Oh no, there's a reason.

It's called "legacy rules". Same reason why Terminators haven't really changed ever.

The formations, while not really in line with some of the more current codex based ones, are pretty neato (to me, at least).

I liked the Psyker one, until I realized that in order to really get the mass warp charges...you'd have to spam a lot of guys that die super easy. Shame too, I thought those guys would suck less.

The others were OK I suppose; the Super-Heavy one is obviously Apocalypse-specific (who runs 3 Super heavies, ever?), and some of the infantry ones were just stupid - like the Sentinel+Infantry one - who gives a crap about move through cover on Guard squads.

Others, like the arty one and the various Leman Russ ones are pretty nifty though - I might try and snag the book just to have it on hand and give them a whirl.

Still not very optimistic about our codex though, with the formations we're getting in Mont'ka GW might see fit to just NOT give us any in an update - or simply release new models that require you to buy their bundles in order to get the new rules, no new codex.

Pretending that points costs don't change, and we just get these formations, would IG compete with Decurion?

I'm thinking nope, NAFP.

The bonus rules are like a 5% bonus, but the Guard started at least 25% behind the curve, so the net result is like putting sprinkles on a turd cupcake. Without a fundamental change in points, Guard stay uncompetitive.

And it's not obvious that they compete with Eldar or SMs either. But its clear that Gauss and Living Metal will continue to own IG, formations or not.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Pretending that points costs don't change, and we just get these formations, would IG compete with Decurion?

I'm thinking nope, NAFP.

The bonus rules are like a 5% bonus, but the Guard started at least 25% behind the curve, so the net result is like putting sprinkles on a turd cupcake. Without a fundamental change in points, Guard stay uncompetitive.

And it's not obvious that they compete with Eldar or SMs either. But its clear that Gauss and Living Metal will continue to own IG, formations or not.

Well clearly, the problem with the IG codex is the fundamental issue of the order system and largely pointless upgrades tied to it like vox casters as well as horrendous internal balance with several units not knowing what they're supposed to do and the few ones that have a role are either overwhelmingly mediocre (Scions or Hydras) or overly good to the point of forcing players to take it in order to be competitive in some way (wyverns).

Guard need an entire overhaul to make the codex work and formations are, at most, going to be a bandage on that issue because if the units you're taking as part of a formation are inherently faulty, no matter how many buffs you give it its still going to be held back from its proper potential as a unit (and effectively makes units' worth entirely based on being taken solely in that formation).

Yay Guard are getting a 'Harness on 2+' unit. Because they're renowned for being fantastic psykers along the lines of Tzeentchian Daemons and Sorcerers.

Trasvi wrote:
Yay Guard are getting a 'Harness on 2+' unit. Because they're renowned for being fantastic psykers along the lines of Tzeentchian Daemons and Sorcerers.

To be fair, its much crappier than a Librarius Conclave, since you have fragile ass units that you have to spam in order to make it work and unlike the conclave have to pay extra with commissars to guarantee the 2+ warp charge harness ability. Plus most of the spells you want to pull off with them (like prescience) can't be done inside a transport and therefore you either have to waste points on an aegis defence line or deploy very incongruously to maximize their survival rate against any sort of enemy fire.

Besides, I'd wager that when the Chaos Daemons book gets redone that the Daemon of Tzzentch rule will change the +3 Ld bonus to psychic tests to giving a +1 bonus to harnessing warp charges or re-rolling one's for casting psychic powers.

These formations seem to require an awful lot of models to make work, or they force you to break squadrons down into one model squads (which is rarely ideal). Who has 3 squads of artillery, or 3 squads of wrydvane psykers, or 3 squads of ogryn, or 3 squads of Valks? Someone with a better head for numbers and tactics will have to break these down, but nothing is jumping out at me as gotta-have choices and some are just plain silly.

Those formations are fluffny and neat. And not broken. I like it.

Armored Sentinels with outflank, also nice.

Did anyone else notice that there is now a (slim) chance to be able to make a Sentinel ram? Hilarious. Useless, but hilarious.

Also, this is the big one: THEY MADE THE RTO WITH THE OVERSIZED PRC-77 WORK LIKE AN RTO WITH AN OVERSIZED PRC-77.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_Armyman wrote:
These formations seem to require an awful lot of models to make work, or they force you to break squadrons down into one model squads (which is rarely ideal). Who has 3 squads of artillery, or 3 squads of wrydvane psykers, or 3 squads of ogryn, or 3 squads of Valks? Someone with a better head for numbers and tactics will have to break these down, but nothing is jumping out at me as gotta-have choices and some are just plain silly.

Well, all the 12 year olds who picked up IG in 5th screaming HOW DO I WIN? I NEED MOAR VENDETTAS MOMMY GIVE ME MONEY! will probably have that many, but they're buried behind their giant pile of Riptides.

I want some DAMN LIGHT INFANTRY

I mean look at them. Let me run them like this. I don't want 150 infantry models that is just ridiculous for a regiment like that....

The Battle Group Command buffs are nice, but the Core choices seem limiting. I might give the Emperor's Talon Recon Co. a try since I like sentinels and it gives armored sents a bit of a buff being able to outflank and receive orders. All the rest are pretty meh for the way I have my army configured.

 the_Armyman wrote:
The Battle Group Command buffs are nice, but the Core choices seem limiting. I might give the Emperor's Talon Recon Co. a try since I like sentinels and it gives armored sents a bit of a buff being able to outflank and receive orders. All the rest are pretty meh for the way I have my army configured.

You need a command and a core choice in order to get an auxiliary....

I feel your pain.

 the_Armyman wrote:
These formations seem to require an awful lot of models to make work, or they force you to break squadrons down into one model squads (which is rarely ideal). Who has 3 squads of artillery, or 3 squads of wrydvane psykers, or 3 squads of ogryn, or 3 squads of Valks?

I have a ridiculous amount of IG. Looking at the formations:

Artillery Company - have CCS, Enginseer, Basilisk, & Wyvern; unbuilt Deathstrike / Manticore.

Psykers - have Primaris, 2 Psyker squads, Commissar; would need to redesignate a 2rd Psyker squad. Except IG Psykers suck so badly, it's pointless...

Ogryns - I have none. I have bits to build a count-as squad, but these have sucked so badly for so many editions, I won't even bother. At most, I'll build the count-as Nork and call it a day.

Valks - I own two, and am in the process of building 1; I sold the 3rd when I figured I'd never field them all. Not going to rebuy, as this is way spendy for what it does in game.

For the other stuff...

Battlegroup Command - why yes, I will take a Command Tank. That works just fine.

Infantry Company - I used to field the Apocalypyse version of this, when they got free barricades and could call down free Apocalypse Barrages on their own heads, if need be. Trading those bonuses for FRFSRF is a fething joke.

Armored Company - have loads of tanks, so Command Tank + 3 Leman Russ Squadrons & Enginseer is easy. This is the obvious build.

Superheavy Support - I have a Baneblade under construction, so a minimal pick goes here. Unless it's still grossly overcosted...


Upon closer inspection, it appears that that 2 old units got cut:
- NO Rough Riders anywhere in the list.
- NO Ratlings anywhere in the list.
I don't know if that's intentional, but losing them is definitely a fair trade to to get Command Tanks and Leman Russes as core...