Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all, so we all know there's a massive advantage to going first in a game like 40k (Most of the time, but not always), as the player going second always starts with less points in theory due to casualties. The concept of "Seizing the Initiative" is an attempt at solving the problem, but it just shifts the problem from one player to the next.

As such, let's brainstorm some of our ideas to solve the problem, and I'd like to start. I know many games try to provide you with extra resources for going second as opposed to first. I took this concept and tried to apply it to 40k, which gave me two base concepts. Both ideas work off of the same concept, that each list includes a "Second Turn Section" in that there's a section in every list, either based on the army or in the main rulebook, that is only used if you're going second without trying to seize the initiative (It has to be pre-set in the list before the game starts, in a tournament it's the same each round, as would your main list be). This is good for both players and GW as it lets players have more control over the game as a whole, and it means more models in each army, so more sales for GW. So here are my ideas:

1.) The player going second gets X bonus points based on a variable percent of how many points their army, or all armies, would lose in the first turn. For example, if you go second and on average a player loses 250 points of models going second you gain a bonus section of 100 points on the table. Now some might notice that those points don't add up, as you'd in theory start with a 150 point deficit, but the difference is that those 100pts of bonus units only happen if you're going second, so you can plan around that, and the 100pts as such has an elevated value, because it can be spent on defensive units or units that help your list recover. Additionally, you can form your list more towards going first and with the bonus units it shifts more towards going second, so that smaller amount of points warps the game a lot to balance it out.

2.) The player going second gets X bonus points, as above, but it's equal to or more than the points lost on average by going second. However, the difference being, is the bonus points are restricted to "bad" units, as in if I'm playing Tau I can only use those points to buy things like Vespids, Krootox, Non-formation Stealth Suits, and so on. This would be cool as the units are over priced so the points aren't exactly equal as is, and it promotes heavily the use of units you wouldn't normally see.



Personally I prefer method two a lot more, as it promotes diversity and going first or second can massively change how you play the game. Think about it, more diversity in armies, more balance, and more variety during play if done right.

I can see your point that there's an advantage to going first, but I don't think it's big enough to warrant drastic measures like this.

There are ways to limit casualties due to firepower, like deploying in cover, behind BLOS terrain, out of range, and in Reserves.

And if you're facing a non-drop close combat list, then you'll have very few casualties in the first turn.

In many ways, this could be giving the player going second needless support. What if the player going second keeps almost everything [or everything, with SM/GK] in reserve? That's 100 free points.

Then there are the armies that are very durable, and won't lose much in the first turn - Necrons, Ravenwing, Knights, Wraith-heavy Eldar, and probably more.

Going first has advantages, yes, but not enough, in my opinion, to add extra rules to compensate.

Terminal wrote:
I can see your point that there's an advantage to going first, but I don't think it's big enough to warrant drastic measures like this.

There are ways to limit casualties due to firepower, like deploying in cover, behind BLOS terrain, out of range, and in Reserves.

And if you're facing a non-drop close combat list, then you'll have very few casualties in the first turn.

In many ways, this could be giving the player going second needless support. What if the player going second keeps almost everything [or everything, with SM/GK] in reserve? That's 100 free points.

Then there are the armies that are very durable, and won't lose much in the first turn - Necrons, Ravenwing, Knights, Wraith-heavy Eldar, and probably more.

Going first has advantages, yes, but not enough, in my opinion, to add extra rules to compensate.

Well again, the 100pts was just a random number that is used for example purposes only. This would require data collection to actually establish a number.

I did address armies with variable survivability, in that the amount of bonus points you gain can be based on the army, as opposed to general rules for all armies.

Also, is 100pts of your worst possible unit, if you're going second, that big of an advantage? Gaining a total of five Vespids probably isn't that big of an advantage, and Vespids are pretty much unplayable right now, so it would actually give them a little play. Even Edlar have Banshees.

Seems the easiest way to mitigate first turn damage advantage would be giving the second player a 4++ invulnerable on anything that didn't already have it, cutting damage potential somewhat in half for the first turn.

It does seem a bit drastic though as does anything else thought of to address what is sometimes an issue and sometimes not. The 4++ saves at least would be conditionally valuable, only activating when used, which targets the advantage directly. I think it is easier to halve the damage potential of first turn player than it is to calculate the absolute average of points lost in turn 1 on any given match up and attempt to apply a standard points advantage for player 2.

Whats the point of having first turn when your opponent gets some advantage for going second?

What Tactical_Spam said. Going second allows you to deploy second better counter their deployment. In addition, if the name of the game is seizing points (which it isn't always by any means) it allows you to get the last push, which often determines those games. Regardless, giving extra forces does not seem to be the answer. You don't give black an extra pawn in Chess for example.

If you want to change the advantage you need to change the system, not make an even more complicated rule-set with more to go wrong(if you're trying to balance for every army it is very complicated). For example, go to a system similar to Battletech. There's a move phase where both armies move based on initiatives, then every unit gets to fire before any units are removed.

How about counter First Blood with another rule called Last Laugh. The player that kills the last unit in a game scores 1 VP. This would give the person going second a slight advantage to cancel out the VP from First Blood.

I agree on maelstrom. The objectives will be spread around, and you have no idea what you're going for before turn 1 starts, so you can't deploy with anything in mind. Going first and getting the first jump on throwing guys onto midfield objectives AND getting some first strike damage along with possible first blood is a strict advantage.

In eternal war (sans purge the alien,) going second and surviving with decent forces to the end is a good plan, and can turn the tables on higher tier lists, especially if you intentionally stall (in game) by using reserves and hiding to limit damage until the game is ending.

In ITC, you get a multi-whammy of end-game objectives, maelstrom scored at the bottom of the turn, and counter-deployment. This leads to the running gag in ITC that going 2nd is the obvious choice for most matchups.

So depending on the format, going 2nd is anywhere from pure disadvantage to almost no-brainer choice. So I can't say a sudden buff to going 2nd would be welcome everywhere.

Well the thing I really like about my idea is that if you make it a separate section of the army list, you can actually have missions that specifically state "Second Turn Bonus Units Not Used." and as such create even more diversity in play as some games will feature them and some won't.


Also, it would be a good way to force bad units to see play that otherwise have no place. Just imagine if the "Second Turn Bonus" units were restricted to specific units. As an example, if we're using Tau and the random number of 100pts, there could be like two choices of either 5 Vespids or
10 Kroot with 2 Krootox for example. You'd never really see a Krootox or Vespid in competitive play, but all of a sudden there around. Heck, if it's enough points you could even have a flier as one of the options or a character.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Whats the point of having first turn when your opponent gets some advantage for going second?

Because you still have an advantage for going first, since you still get to alpha strike and pick off priority targets before your opponent gets to make a move.

Again, if let's say you go for option 2, are you really going to state that there's no advantage to being able to decide that your opponent's unit of Broadsides is now a unit of Vespid, and you get first blood at the expense of some of your fire power?

Change the I Go You Go system to Bolt Action's system. One die per unit, coloured according to player. Draw them out at random until all dice are gone.

 troa wrote:
What Tactical_Spam said. Going second allows you to deploy second better counter their deployment. In addition, if the name of the game is seizing points (which it isn't always by any means) it allows you to get the last push, which often determines those games. Regardless, giving extra forces does not seem to be the answer. You don't give black an extra pawn in Chess for example.

Chess also doesn't involve Lasers that wipe out half your army before you even get to move. You move a single piece at a time in Chess, not your entire board.


That said, I still think First Turn isn't all that high of an advantage unless it's AdMech or Tau taking it. You can reasonably counter deploy any army to make due with the losses suffered and rely on cover saves or being out of sight. Lack of terrain can be an issue but that's another problem entirely. The first player has the disadvantage at times due to not being able to charge you that first turn, yet if he moves up at all he has just given you the first charge. Even if he doesn't plan on charging you, line of sight means he will be visible with most of guys while second player has the luxury of putting all of his behind blocking terrain and moving through cover on his turn to expose himself. Then there's the Flyers and other Deep Strikes... seeing how 1st player will generally hit the field before 2nd player does, there's again a discrepancy in foresight and counter tactics. If my Heldrake arrives before your Hive Tyrant it's probably dead. If Vice Versa you're probably dead. If my Terminators arrive first you can counter-deploy yours anywhere you'd like to engage or avoid them. Yet if you drop yours in first I know exactly where my threat is going to be. First player definitely has some advantage but it's negated in part by the secondary deployment. Stealing the Initiative is just absolute gravy though.

Colehkxix wrote:
Change the I Go You Go system to Bolt Action's system. One die per unit, coloured according to player. Draw them out at random until all dice are gone.

Has anyone ever tried this with 40k - be interested to know how it went......................

I don't play it but friends who do say there can be issues with this method and disparity in the number of units on one side.

Would you execute their whole turn - movement and firing on the dice draw (as Dropzone Commander, Malifaux etc) or just one element - then do it again.

Is there any need to actually draw dice rather than merely choose a unit?

Would the detachments / formations mess cause any additional issues?

what if going second gives you a temporary adl for 1st turn?

The easy fix is to restrict the player going first to moving -or- shooting, but not both.

That balances things out nicely.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Colehkxix wrote:
Change the I Go You Go system to Bolt Action's system. One die per unit, coloured according to player. Draw them out at random until all dice are gone.

Has anyone ever tried this with 40k - be interested to know how it went......................

I don't play it but friends who do say there can be issues with this method and disparity in the number of units on one side.

Would you execute their whole turn - movement and firing on the dice draw (as Dropzone Commander, Malifaux etc) or just one element - then do it again.

Is there any need to actually draw dice rather than merely choose a unit?

Would the detachments / formations mess cause any additional issues?

Tried alternate unit activation without dice and it works up to a point.
The problem for 40k is the same for Bolt Action it works well for 1000 point games but not sich higher values.

To solve the first turn problem you need first more LOS blocking terrain and second, the player who goes first has to deploy first.

The first strike advantage is inherently mitigated by the deploy second advantage. That's why its there.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The first strike advantage is inherently mitigated by the deploy second advantage. That's why its there.

This might have been true in previous editions of the game that didn't have...

...a VP for First Blood.
...and weapons that both ignore LOS and cover saves.
...and 1st turn, no-scatter deepstrike mechanics.

Another thing to consider before making a blanket advantage for going second is null deployment armies - a SM Drop Pod army for example loves going second, as you generally waste a turn of your opponent's without them having anything to shoot at.

As an aside, I recently watched a video on youtube about first move advantage, which might be worth a few minutes of your time (I only say it last week, despite it being made in 2014, so slightly serendipitous of this topic to turn up). Extra Credits - First Move Advantage

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The easy fix is to restrict the player going first to moving -or- shooting, but not both.

That balances things out nicely.

Turn 1 Tau just sits and shoots so it doesn't really change much for them


What if everyone got a 1 turn use ability to give their army a 5+ FNP type save against shooting attacks made during one phase on one turn. Interceptor shooting, Psychic Phase, and Overwatch would each count as a separate phase so the ability would only benefit one of them. The save does not stack with FNP/RP but isn't negated by instant death, cannot be modified/rerolled, and does work on vehicles. The idea is to blunt alpha strikes so they don't wipe the board in 1 turn without opportunity to play against it. The reason its choose to use instead of automatically happening turn 1 is because it won't help against an army that null deploys turn 1 and on turn 2 does all their shooting (things like skyhammer or retaliation cadre). Its not an elegant solution but its the best that I can think of that would fairly evenly benefit all armies (doesn't help necrons much but they don't seem to have as many issues about being tabled from shooting). This would greatly benefit assault armies as they can survive a bit better closing the distance.

Of course, one could reasonably realize that going 2nd generally has more advantages than going first.

- Observe the commitments of your opponent to movement, target priority, etc
- Force opponent to move into LOS so that you can then focus fire more easily
- Opponent will generally be the first to leave cover, allowing you more powerful shooting attacks [Ig-Co excluded, of course]
- Your own flyers are more likely to come on 2nd, giving you "first strike" against them
- Alpha-striking units are generally over-rated. Hooray! I wiped out one unit with my expensive star. Now, everything gets to rapid fire me in retaliation, wiping my star off the board! Yippeee!

- You have the last opportunity to score objectives, which is what typically wins you the game.

The concept of "first turn advantage" is one of those things you get over once you've played for a while. Trust me, my experience over 18 years of wargaming has consistently given the advantage to the 2nd player.

First blood is brilliant. It generally rewards the player that goes first, and as a tie-breaker mechanic is perfect. If the 2nd player can't outscore the first player, the first player deserves to win, as they'll have generally played a better game.

 Vankraken wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The easy fix is to restrict the player going first to moving -or- shooting, but not both.

That balances things out nicely.

Turn 1 Tau just sits and shoots so it doesn't really change much for them

Even so, it means that those Tau only get to fire at what's directly in front of them; not being able to reposition will reduce effectiveness somewhat.

Which is only downside if the Tau player also deployed first.
If there is the option to deploy second but go first it will not work

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The easy fix is to restrict the player going first to moving -or- shooting, but not both.

That balances things out nicely.

Turn 1 Tau just sits and shoots so it doesn't really change much for them

Even so, it means that those Tau only get to fire at what's directly in front of them; not being able to reposition will reduce effectiveness somewhat.

Actually now that I think about it, it wouldn't work at all with drop pod lists as they have to move turn 1 (they must leave the pod which is their movement). If they couldn't shoot then they just drop podded in to offer themselves up as free kills.

I don't see how that would be a bad thing. "De Emprah Pertekts!"

 Arkaine wrote:

 troa wrote:
What Tactical_Spam said. Going second allows you to deploy second better counter their deployment. In addition, if the name of the game is seizing points (which it isn't always by any means) it allows you to get the last push, which often determines those games. Regardless, giving extra forces does not seem to be the answer. You don't give black an extra pawn in Chess for example.

Chess also doesn't involve Lasers that wipe out half your army before you even get to move. You move a single piece at a time in Chess, not your entire board.


That said, I still think First Turn isn't all that high of an advantage unless it's AdMech or Tau taking it. You can reasonably counter deploy any army to make due with the losses suffered and rely on cover saves or being out of sight. Lack of terrain can be an issue but that's another problem entirely. The first player has the disadvantage at times due to not being able to charge you that first turn, yet if he moves up at all he has just given you the first charge. Even if he doesn't plan on charging you, line of sight means he will be visible with most of guys while second player has the luxury of putting all of his behind blocking terrain and moving through cover on his turn to expose himself. Then there's the Flyers and other Deep Strikes... seeing how 1st player will generally hit the field before 2nd player does, there's again a discrepancy in foresight and counter tactics. If my Heldrake arrives before your Hive Tyrant it's probably dead. If Vice Versa you're probably dead. If my Terminators arrive first you can counter-deploy yours anywhere you'd like to engage or avoid them. Yet if you drop yours in first I know exactly where my threat is going to be. First player definitely has some advantage but it's negated in part by the secondary deployment. Stealing the Initiative is just absolute gravy though.

You know how you don't get half your army obliterated? Don't deploy like an idiot. Second turn has the advantage of being able to counter deploy. Are you so inept at the game that you put your guard blob out in the open to face a tau gun line? Or put all your tanks next to each other when the enemy is spamming artillery.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 troa wrote:
What Tactical_Spam said. Going second allows you to deploy second better counter their deployment. In addition, if the name of the game is seizing points (which it isn't always by any means) it allows you to get the last push, which often determines those games. Regardless, giving extra forces does not seem to be the answer. You don't give black an extra pawn in Chess for example.

Chess also doesn't involve Lasers that wipe out half your army before you even get to move. You move a single piece at a time in Chess, not your entire board.


That said, I still think First Turn isn't all that high of an advantage unless it's AdMech or Tau taking it. You can reasonably counter deploy any army to make due with the losses suffered and rely on cover saves or being out of sight. Lack of terrain can be an issue but that's another problem entirely. The first player has the disadvantage at times due to not being able to charge you that first turn, yet if he moves up at all he has just given you the first charge. Even if he doesn't plan on charging you, line of sight means he will be visible with most of guys while second player has the luxury of putting all of his behind blocking terrain and moving through cover on his turn to expose himself. Then there's the Flyers and other Deep Strikes... seeing how 1st player will generally hit the field before 2nd player does, there's again a discrepancy in foresight and counter tactics. If my Heldrake arrives before your Hive Tyrant it's probably dead. If Vice Versa you're probably dead. If my Terminators arrive first you can counter-deploy yours anywhere you'd like to engage or avoid them. Yet if you drop yours in first I know exactly where my threat is going to be. First player definitely has some advantage but it's negated in part by the secondary deployment. Stealing the Initiative is just absolute gravy though.

You know how you don't get half your army obliterated? Don't deploy like an idiot. Second turn has the advantage of being able to counter deploy. Are you so inept at the game that you put your guard blob out in the open to face a tau gun line? Or put all your tanks next to each other when the enemy is spamming artillery.

Gotta remember that some of these gents don't have the best terrain available. Against a good tau force, a couple small windows on a ruined building makes it near useless. Sometimes it isn't their fault that they can't counter deploy correctly.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 troa wrote:
What Tactical_Spam said. Going second allows you to deploy second better counter their deployment. In addition, if the name of the game is seizing points (which it isn't always by any means) it allows you to get the last push, which often determines those games. Regardless, giving extra forces does not seem to be the answer. You don't give black an extra pawn in Chess for example.

Chess also doesn't involve Lasers that wipe out half your army before you even get to move. You move a single piece at a time in Chess, not your entire board.


That said, I still think First Turn isn't all that high of an advantage unless it's AdMech or Tau taking it. You can reasonably counter deploy any army to make due with the losses suffered and rely on cover saves or being out of sight. Lack of terrain can be an issue but that's another problem entirely. The first player has the disadvantage at times due to not being able to charge you that first turn, yet if he moves up at all he has just given you the first charge. Even if he doesn't plan on charging you, line of sight means he will be visible with most of guys while second player has the luxury of putting all of his behind blocking terrain and moving through cover on his turn to expose himself. Then there's the Flyers and other Deep Strikes... seeing how 1st player will generally hit the field before 2nd player does, there's again a discrepancy in foresight and counter tactics. If my Heldrake arrives before your Hive Tyrant it's probably dead. If Vice Versa you're probably dead. If my Terminators arrive first you can counter-deploy yours anywhere you'd like to engage or avoid them. Yet if you drop yours in first I know exactly where my threat is going to be. First player definitely has some advantage but it's negated in part by the secondary deployment. Stealing the Initiative is just absolute gravy though.

You know how you don't get half your army obliterated? Don't deploy like an idiot. Second turn has the advantage of being able to counter deploy. Are you so inept at the game that you put your guard blob out in the open to face a tau gun line? Or put all your tanks next to each other when the enemy is spamming artillery.

Learn to read the whole post, not just the first sentence. I literally stated it was not that high of an advantage and explained how valuable the Second turn counter deployment is with multiple examples. Thanks for agreeing with me.

 the_Armyman wrote:
How about counter First Blood with another rule called Last Laugh. The player that kills the last unit in a game scores 1 VP. This would give the person going second a slight advantage to cancel out the VP from First Blood.

This is a fun point to score. A tourney that I went to had something like this, when the unit that has the first blood is killed off, it evens out the first blood VP.