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 Frozocrone wrote:
Burst Cannon can finish off a unit

"Barely useful does not equal worthless"

Except bolt pistols can grant an extra attack. The burst cannon is inferior in every way so you would never use it. I have never complained when my marine Sargent kills another marine because he got an extra attack with his power sword from the bolt pistol.

There are a lot of samples of non sense equip on units, so the fact of have a lot of weapons not means that the unit could shoot all.

There are several samples of units with several weapons even if cant shoot all of them (bikes with bolter and bolter gun, the eldar Wlord with option of carry 4 weapons, etc...).


But again come back to the rule: they shoot like MC with the difference of can shoot to different objetives...


Alsowe cant defend the idea just because superheavy can shoot all. A dread also can shoot all while MC not.

And hell, GMC are far better than nay superheavy xD

Franarok wrote:
There are a lot of samples of non sense equip on units, so the fact of have a lot of weapons not means that the unit could shoot all.

There are several samples of units with several weapons even if cant shoot all of them (bikes with bolter and bolter gun, the eldar Wlord with option of carry 4 weapons, etc...).


But again come back to the rule: they shoot like MC with the difference of can shoot to different objetives...


Alsowe cant defend the idea just because superheavy can shoot all. A dread also can shoot all while MC not.

And hell, GMC are far better than nay superheavy xD

Please don't come in here pretending that what you say is how the rule works. again, every single reputable source has confirmed GC can shoot all their weapons. Its also common sense.

and for the stupid wraithlord example people keep brining up. Bringing more than 2 weapons IS OPTIONAL. You are choosing to pay points to bring more than 2. Stormsruge comes with 8 weapons stock, several of which such as Burst canon and smart missile systems would be used exactly 0% of the time if it was only allowed to shoot 2 weapons.

There has been no official word on how many weapons a GMC can fire. All of the emailed responses are meaningless, as they cannot be authenticated. At the moment, its just on us to decide how it will be played. I for one read RAW as 2 weapons, while an anchored Stormsurge can fire 4.

SJ

notredameguy10 wrote:

Please don't come in here pretending that what you say is how the rule works. again, every single reputable source has confirmed GC can shoot all their weapons. Its also common sense.

Every single source except for the one that actually matters, the BRB.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Please don't come in here pretending that what you say is how the rule works. again, every single reputable source has confirmed GC can shoot all their weapons. Its also common sense.

Every single source except for the one that actually matters, the BRB.

And guess what? The BRB doesn't say the opposite either. It is ambiguous. Thus, those other sources are the only thing available, besides common sense, to decide upon the rule

notredameguy10 wrote:

Please don't come in here pretending that what you say is how the rule works. again, every single reputable source has confirmed GC can shoot all their weapons. Its also common sense..

There is only one reputable source when it comes to rules judgements, and so far they haven't seen fit to update it.

Well I am not pretending nothing and of course I can be wrong.

I just commented the RAW. And sadly (or not) is clear: shoot like MC with the difference of be able to choose different objetives.

Also answered to people who argue that how the unit have several weapons then "must" be able to shoot all since there are a lot of samples on the game that breaks that logic

And no mater the eldar Wlord could have 4 weapons as an option, the fact is that they can, so is a valid sample of a unit with more weapons that the ones he can shoot.



And of course "the rule doesn't say the opposite" is not valid. Is like if someone said that a force spear shoot missiles because doesn't say the opposite xDDDDDD

Franarok wrote:
Well I am not pretending nothing and of course I can be wrong.

I just commented the RAW. And sadly (or not) is clear: shoot like MC with the difference of be able to choose different objetives.

Also answered to people who argue that how the unit have several weapons then "must" be able to shoot all since there are a lot of samples on the game that breaks that logic

And no mater the eldar Wlord could have 4 weapons as an option, the fact is that they can, so is a valid sample of a unit with more weapons that the ones he can shoot.



And of course "the rule doesn't say the opposite" is not valid. Is like if someone said that a force spear shoot missiles because doesn't say the opposite xDDDDDD

No, RAW does not say that. Like I said RAW is ambiguous. GC follow the rules as MC with several exceptions. One exception is GC can fire EACH of their weapons at a different targets. Depending on how you read "each" determines how people see the rule.

No, giving weak examples of other units with 1/2 extra weapons then they can fire does nothing. Stormsurge has 8 weapons, several of which are very weak. They would not be on the model if you could not fire every weapon. Games Workshop are not COMPLETE idiots. They know the rules for the models they are making.

And again, White dwarf responded saying all weapons can fire, Games Workshop Customer Service said all weapons can fire, ~80% of the community voted and said all weapons can fire, all ITC tournaments play all weapons can fire.

notredameguy10 wrote:
They would not be on the model if you could not fire every weapon. Games Workshop are not COMPLETE idiots. They know the rules for the models they are making.

I'd just like to stop and disagree with that point right there.

Ahh, my favorite "Jervis is butthurt that he got overruled at the staff meeting" post.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'm disinclined to let my Tau opponent have the Stormsurge fire more than 2 weapons base. There is no room to "agree to disagree" on this. Sounds like the stormsurge already rules to fire more than two weapons anyway. People insisting on making GMCs worse than they already are sounds like people I don't need to play against. They are already almost an "autowin" button against many lists.

Time to adjust said lists then. As for your reticence to "allow" it, well... What can I say.

It takes two to play, right? If people insist on making GMCs even worse than they already are, I can certainly go find something else to do. Because Tau don't need overpowered +1 when they already have overpowered.

Yes, two people. Doesnt need to be you though.

So... I guess... That's a choice too.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ahh, my favorite "Jervis is butthurt that he got overruled at the staff meeting" post.

It never gets old. The whole thing would have been acceptable (although odd) right up until that last sentence he makes. We made a mistake - but we've decided to keep it in - but you're a poor sport if you follow our official ruling on the mistake. It will never get old.

Bolt Pistols on Bikers aren't completely useless, there are, at times, situations where you want to fire on an enemy unit but not do too much damage. If one were wanting to charge into melee with a unit, but firing the Bolters ran the risk of killing off enough models that it'd make the charge much harder/impossible, firing a Bolt Pistol lets one do some extra damage compared to not shooting at all.

In a similar manner, the Burst Cannon on a Stormsurge could be useful when one doesn't want to cause too much damage, but still want to get a few shots in. It's a marginal case, granted, but the situation could occur.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'm disinclined to let my Tau opponent have the Stormsurge fire more than 2 weapons base. There is no room to "agree to disagree" on this. Sounds like the stormsurge already rules to fire more than two weapons anyway. People insisting on making GMCs worse than they already are sounds like people I don't need to play against. They are already almost an "autowin" button against many lists.

Time to adjust said lists then. As for your reticence to "allow" it, well... What can I say.

It takes two to play, right? If people insist on making GMCs even worse than they already are, I can certainly go find something else to do. Because Tau don't need overpowered +1 when they already have overpowered.

Yes, two people. Doesnt need to be you though.

So... I guess... That's a choice too.

Damn straight. There's almost no point in putting ba against tau anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Franarok wrote:
Well I am not pretending nothing and of course I can be wrong.

I just commented the RAW. And sadly (or not) is clear: shoot like MC with the difference of be able to choose different objetives.

Also answered to people who argue that how the unit have several weapons then "must" be able to shoot all since there are a lot of samples on the game that breaks that logic

And no mater the eldar Wlord could have 4 weapons as an option, the fact is that they can, so is a valid sample of a unit with more weapons that the ones he can shoot.



And of course "the rule doesn't say the opposite" is not valid. Is like if someone said that a force spear shoot missiles because doesn't say the opposite xDDDDDD

No, RAW does not say that. Like I said RAW is ambiguous. GC follow the rules as MC with several exceptions. One exception is GC can fire EACH of their weapons at a different targets. Depending on how you read "each" determines how people see the rule.

No, giving weak examples of other units with 1/2 extra weapons then they can fire does nothing. Stormsurge has 8 weapons, several of which are very weak. They would not be on the model if you could not fire every weapon. Games Workshop are not COMPLETE idiots. They know the rules for the models they are making.

And again, White dwarf responded saying all weapons can fire, Games Workshop Customer Service said all weapons can fire, ~80% of the community voted and said all weapons can fire, all ITC tournaments play all weapons can fire.

I'd have to disagree about gw. If anyone ever deserved the title "complete idiot", it's them. As far as I can tell, gw is incapable of simple math.

If 80% of players really voted this way, my days might be numbered. Gmcs don't need this ruling and the ruling makes the stormsurge undercosted like the wk. Gmcs are already immune to so many things in the game.

[img]

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

So, specific rules for the Stormsurge are that with anchors down, can fire four weapons, each at a different target, weapons cannot fire twice.

Why are people assuming the Stormsurge can fire the same weapons twice? If GMCs can only fire two weapons, and those weapons cannot be fired twice without specific permission to do so, the Stormsurge with anchors down can fire half of its weapons each turn. If, however, GMCs can always fire all of it's weapons each turn, the Stabilizing Anchors special rule does not necessarily grant the ability to fire each weapon twice, it only grants the model with the ability to fire twice. The second shooting attack doubles the attacks from 2 to 4, just like the MC rules doubled the normal infantry attacks from 1 to 2.

Something to consider.

SJ

Let me squash this before it gets started.

The new Riptide Wing formation in the Mont'ka supplement allows them all to make 2 shooting attacks in the same shooting phase once per battle. It is the same wording as the stormsurge. Thus, the Stormsurge can fire the same weapons twice.

[/img]http://imgur.com/a/vdlig

notredameguy10 wrote:
[img]

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

So, specific rules for the Stormsurge are that with anchors down, can fire four weapons, each at a different target, weapons cannot fire twice.

Why are people assuming the Stormsurge can fire the same weapons twice? If GMCs can only fire two weapons, and those weapons cannot be fired twice without specific permission to do so, the Stormsurge with anchors down can fire half of its weapons each turn. If, however, GMCs can always fire all of it's weapons each turn, the Stabilizing Anchors special rule does not necessarily grant the ability to fire each weapon twice, it only grants the model with the ability to fire twice. The second shooting attack doubles the attacks from 2 to 4, just like the MC rules doubled the normal infantry attacks from 1 to 2.

Something to consider.

SJ

Let me squash this before it gets started.

The new Riptide Wing formation in the Mont'ka supplement allows them all to make 2 shooting attacks in the same shooting phase once per battle. It is the same wording as the stormsurge. Thus, the Stormsurge can fire the same weapons twice.

[/img]http://imgur.com/a/vdlig

Unlike other rules in the game that specify you can fire the same weapon twice, the Stormsurge lack that language as it only states that you can make a second set of shooting attacks. Without specific permission to be able to shoot the same weapon twice, you can only shoot it once. Please cite a rule thst states a Stormsurge may fire the same weapon twice.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
[img]

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

So, specific rules for the Stormsurge are that with anchors down, can fire four weapons, each at a different target, weapons cannot fire twice.

Why are people assuming the Stormsurge can fire the same weapons twice? If GMCs can only fire two weapons, and those weapons cannot be fired twice without specific permission to do so, the Stormsurge with anchors down can fire half of its weapons each turn. If, however, GMCs can always fire all of it's weapons each turn, the Stabilizing Anchors special rule does not necessarily grant the ability to fire each weapon twice, it only grants the model with the ability to fire twice. The second shooting attack doubles the attacks from 2 to 4, just like the MC rules doubled the normal infantry attacks from 1 to 2.

Something to consider.

SJ

Let me squash this before it gets started.

The new Riptide Wing formation in the Mont'ka supplement allows them all to make 2 shooting attacks in the same shooting phase once per battle. It is the same wording as the stormsurge. Thus, the Stormsurge can fire the same weapons twice.

[/img]http://imgur.com/a/vdlig

Unlike other rules in the game that specify you can fire the same weapon twice, the Stormsurge lack that language as it only states that you can make a second set of shooting attacks. Without specific permission to be able to shoot the same weapon twice, you can only shoot it once. Please cite a rule thst states a Stormsurge may fire the same weapon twice.

SJ

lol did you even read the rules of the riptide formation? they are exactly identical. And then they give an example of being able to fire the same weapon twice. (and example as in clarifying how ripple fire works, not giving it extra permission that the storm surge doesn't have)
All you are doing is being purposefully dense and don't want to admit you are wrong

So, you don't understand the word "cite"? How about "quote".

SJ

SJ, your point is an interesting one, but doesn't "twice" by it's very definition mean doing the same thing two times?

Otherwise, surely you're not doing something twice - you're just doing two different things?

 vipoid wrote:
SJ, your point is an interesting one, but doesn't "twice" by it's very definition mean doing the same thing two times?

yes, and the riptide wing formation has the exact same wording and says it can fire each weapon twice as a clarifying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
So, you don't understand the word "cite"? How about "quote".

SJ

"…can shoot twice in their shooting phase, making each attack at a different target if desired. Carry out the shooting attacks separately, one after the other. The unit cannot move in the assault phase of the same turn. If a model use Ripple Fire in the turn in which it makes a Riptide Hailfire attack, it can fire the relevant weapon four times rather than twice”

This means “shoot twice/shooting attacks”, which is the same wording stormsruge uses, means the same weapon can be fired twice.

Now cite were that applies to a Stormsurge.

SJ

SJ sounds like a tau hater tbh, he doesn't understand English grammar as he suggest he does.

He posted this:

The Counterfire Defense System is the weapon that the Stormsurge can use to Overwatch, which means yes, it can Overwatch.

SJ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

to this topic:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?414665-Counterfire-Defense-Systems-and-Stormsurges

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Now cite were that applies to a Stormsurge.

SJ

omg you are being ridiculous.

Riptide wing and stormsurge both rules allow the units to make two shooting attacks/attack twice (exact same wording)
Riptide wing rule clarifies saying that two shooting attacks means two completely separate shooting sequences which means same weapons can be fired twice
Any person with an IQ above 60 can say it applies to the stormsruge as well (as you are merely arguing with the meaning of the word "shooting attacks")

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
So, you don't understand the word "cite"? How about "quote".

SJ

Read the rules. You'll find it. if you dont know the rule, dont argue.

Wait now people are trying to say if you drop anchors you can fire twice more, but they have to be different weapons? Hahaha I can feel the bitterness straight through my connection. I would love that if someone told me that to my face. I need a good laugh.

I'm not "trying to say", I am actually saying the per RAW, you can't fire a weapon more than once without permission. Two shooting attacks does equal shoot the same weapon twice. And just because a Riptide in a formation does have permission to shoot the same weapon more than once, that permission does not extent to other units outside of that formation regardless of similar wording. The difference between the cited rules for the Riptide and the actual rules for the Stormsurge is permission to shoot the same weapon more than once is not present in the Stormsurge rules. It is an assumption that GMCs can fire all weapons, and it is an assumption that a Stormsurge can fire same weapons twice when anchors are down. The rules don't actually support these assumptions. The issue is one of ambiguity in the language of the rules. The problem is lack of specific permission to override the general restriction.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'm not "trying to say", I am actually saying the per RAW, you can't fire a weapon more than once without permission. Two shooting attacks does equal shoot the same weapon twice. And just because a Riptide in a formation does have permission to shoot the same weapon more than once, that permission does not extent to other units outside of that formation regardless of similar wording. The difference between the cited rules for the Riptide and the actual rules for the Stormsurge is permission to shoot the same weapon more than once is not present in the Stormsurge rules. It is an assumption that GMCs can fire all weapons, and it is an assumption that a Stormsurge can fire same weapons twice when anchors are down. The rules don't actually support these assumptions. The issue is one of ambiguity in the language of the rules. The problem is lack of specific permission to override the general restriction.

SJ

Sorry, but I think you are the only person who thinks that. You are being stubborn because you won't admit you are wrong. You keep having a problem with "shooting attacks". That means completely separate shooting sequences. You shoot your weapons. When you are done, you can shoot those weapons again. There is evidence of this in many codexes, including the Tau codex.

The Riptide Wings rule says "Can shoot twice in their shooting phase... Carry out the shooting attacks separately, one after the other"
Stormsurge stabilizing anchors says "a stormsurge with its anchors deployed can fire twice.. Make the second shooting attack directly after the first has been resolved"

Both say "shoot twice", both say "shooting attacks"

Riptide wings' rule merely clarifies that when using ripple fire works with the rule, allowing 2 sets of ripple fire

Any person with half a brain can see the ruling here.

You are wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Riptide has 2 weapons and it can shoot both normally. Thus, allowing them to "shoot twice" and "carry out the shooting attacks" means they can fire each gun a second time. Nowhere in the rule does it specifically say they can fire each gun second time, just like it doesn't say the stormsruge can fire each gun a second time, yet they can

So what you are trying to say, is that if a GMC gives up 12 inches of movement, the ability to charge, and possibly it's best weapon against death stars-the stomp attacks, then that player has your permission to THEN shoot its smart missile system and burst cannons that turn to compliment its hugecannon and swarmomissles?

Do you ever go back and re-read your posts? Say to check grammar errors or mind boggling illogical statements?

The Riptide has 2 weapons and it can shoot both normally. Thus, allowing them to "shoot twice" and "carry out the shooting attacks" means they can fire each gun a second time. Nowhere in the rule does it specifically say they can fire each gun second time, just like it doesn't say the stormsruge can fire each gun a second time, yet they can

You've just made my point for me. Underline the RAW, italics the RAI. We can't prove RAI, just RAW.

SJ