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I feel like I have a fighting chance against just about every list, where if the rolls go my way, I have a "chance" of beating any army with the blueskins and the greenskins. Except the Baronial Court. I cant seem to crack this nut. Any suggestions?

5× Str 13 with 4++ running at the nastiest of Tau gunlines even with all the buffs seem to be a losing proposition. Orks... ugh.

tankbustas, meganobz. Or alternatively, a stompa and one million fearless grots. Knights have no chances against it.

Boyz tar pit Knights, allowing hidden power klaws to rip them apart. Knights can't kill enough cheap Orks to matter, and there are only five of them to your 100+. Tar pit them, play the mission, lol as he wastes stomps on gubbins while you win the game.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Boyz tar pit Knights, allowing hidden power klaws to rip them apart. Knights can't kill enough cheap Orks to matter, and there are only five of them to your 100+. Tar pit them, play the mission, lol as he wastes stomps on gubbins while you win the game.

SJ

Actually, boyz don't do tarpitting as well as you'd think they would. Against normal walkers and MC's, yes, but against SHW and GMC that can stomp? They can clear out a mob of boyz pretty quick, and unless those units have the big bosspole in them they will be subject to Fear which unfortunately Orks are surprisingly weak against.

This also isn't considering the mobility knights have over Orks and how they can engage on their own terms while firing away at range.

Meganobz with killsaws or Tankbustas are really the only real way to go to be honest.

For Tau, Stormsurges, Optomised Stealth cadre, Missile sides, and missile suits with a buffmander/vre in there will mop up the knights really quick. I dropped two in one shooting phase dealing nearly 20 hull points between the two.

@Koooeai:
1.) Meganobz 4 + 1 Killsaw is the only hope Orks have. And it would have to be 5 squads of 5. Since knights swing at initiative 4, the Megas will have only 1 or maybe 2 turns in combat. They won't make it out. Overall, if they make it into combat and it's a wash (both die), I think that's a win. So I'll give you that.

2.) Tankbustas: no friggin chance. It will take 9 TBs to strip a single hull point. All shoot. 3 hits. FA = 13. Needing 5+ re rollable. Reliably 2 go through. Saves half of them. So, you need like 45 shots to kill a knight in the front arc. Not gonna happen.

@MrDeeds:
3.) I have 6 missile sides. If it has the permissive CFP rule with tank hunter and buffmander... 24 TLd shots. 88% hit. (21). 44% Glance or pen. (9). Saves half. Likely a dead knight. The court is 36" away from your broadsides. 12" + 7" charge. You have 1 more turn of shooting and 4 Knights.

The ghost keel is already dead since it had to be 18" from a knight to shoot, and maybe it killed a knight. MAYBE. storm surge D is only effective at 10" so you have it for overwatch only.

Maybe your fire warriors can hold up one too for the greater good. But, not looking great....

I wasn't talking about the melta on the ghostkeels, I meant for them to use the ion rsker. Taking the Optomised Stealth Cadre and use the strength 7 guys to focus on one knight a turn. It's a pinching maneuver and will leave one flank undefended.

 doktor_g wrote:

@MrDeeds:
3.) I have 6 missile sides. If it has the permissive CFP rule with tank hunter and buffmander... 24 TLd shots. 88% hit. (21). 44% Glance or pen. (9). Saves half. Likely a dead knight. The court is 36" away from your broadsides. 12" + 7" charge. You have 1 more turn of shooting and 4 Knights.

The ghost keel is already dead since it had to be 18" from a knight to shoot, and maybe it killed a knight. MAYBE. storm surge D is only effective at 10" so you have it for overwatch only.

Maybe your fire warriors can hold up one too for the greater good. But, not looking great....

You speed bump those knights. You need to ensure you don't provide them with additional range via slingshot manoeuvres but otherwise you force/limit movement.

With Tau, it is not unreasonable to hit with all 24 shots (BS5 twin-linked) which we shall assume is from a single squad of Broadsides with drones + buffmaner (not permissive) which is definitely a dead knight.

How about you tease rear armour with some deep-striking Melta, forcing Ion Shields to make a choice.

The Ghostkeel shoots @ 24" & can JSJ 2d6" so it should be able to kite well enough each turn (and if a single Ghostkeel pulls a Knight, if you've planned for this, great!).

How about a Stormsurge, Multiple Str10 pie plates (nev-ar miss.. due to scatter vs, base size?), StrD rockets then charging in to tie up a knight in CC (admittedly that would require a 50p shield gen to be viable).

...My point being, whilst that style of list can be challenging - don't play into the strengths of the opposing army.

 doktor_g wrote:
@Koooeai:
1.) Meganobz 4 + 1 Killsaw is the only hope Orks have. And it would have to be 5 squads of 5. Since knights swing at initiative 4, the Megas will have only 1 or maybe 2 turns in combat. They won't make it out. Overall, if they make it into combat and it's a wash (both die), I think that's a win. So I'll give you that.

2.) Tankbustas: no friggin chance. It will take 9 TBs to strip a single hull point. All shoot. 3 hits. FA = 13. Needing 5+ re rollable. Reliably 2 go through. Saves half of them. So, you need like 45 shots to kill a knight in the front arc. Not gonna happen.

@MrDeeds:
3.) I have 6 missile sides. If it has the permissive CFP rule with tank hunter and buffmander... 24 TLd shots. 88% hit. (21). 44% Glance or pen. (9). Saves half. Likely a dead knight. The court is 36" away from your broadsides. 12" + 7" charge. You have 1 more turn of shooting and 4 Knights.

The ghost keel is already dead since it had to be 18" from a knight to shoot, and maybe it killed a knight. MAYBE. storm surge D is only effective at 10" so you have it for overwatch only.

Maybe your fire warriors can hold up one too for the greater good. But, not looking great....

Um, if you are a good player no, the ghost keels will not be dead. 6" move, if within 12" of commander can also run and still shoot, can Jetpack move back 2D6" will keep you away from the knights for quite awhile.

And you can assume the shield will not be placed on the rear armor every turn since the entire rest of your army will be shooting at the front.

3 Ghostkeel put out:
18 Str 7 shots. thats 15 hits. / all hit rear armor every time, so 2.5 glances and 5 penetrating hits
3 TL Str 8 AP 1 shots. 2.94 hits. / .5 glances and 1.5 penetrating hits

So that ONE formation does 3 glances and 6.5 penetrating hits every turn (add in Target Locks and you can hit more than one knights.

 doktor_g wrote:
2.) Tankbustas: no friggin chance. It will take 9 TBs to strip a single hull point. All shoot. 3 hits. FA = 13. Needing 5+ re rollable. Reliably 2 go through. Saves half of them. So, you need like 45 shots to kill a knight in the front arc. Not gonna happen.

Tankbustas don't kill knights in shooting. They kill them in assault. Melta bombs.

That being said, they can do work in shooting. It takes 4 Tankbustas to take a hull point off of something that is AV 12 (Side armor) or 5.5 to take a hull point off of something that is AV 13. Double that if you are facing the side with invuls.

Now, if we look at assault... Each tankbusta averages 0.78 hull points. 38 Tankbustas will kill 5 knights dead in assault.

Ghostkeel shokts them in the rear and ignores the ion shield if they put it in the front.

Seriously, IK are super easy to kill. a 85pt model can 1hit ko one. WK on the other hand only die to mass grav shots.

 Filch wrote:
Ghostkeel shokts them in the rear and ignores the ion shield if they put it in the front.

Seriously, IK are super easy to kill. a 85pt model can 1hit ko one. WK on the other hand only die to mass grav shots.

Do you have to drag your butthurt from the YMDC thread on Ghostkeels? IK are not easy to kill, they practically require you to list tailor to them because it invalidates like half of most TAC lists' weapons. It's not GW's fault that you supposedly bought 5 knights and can't use your brain in order to exploit these advantages to get wins.

Btw, i was serious bout grots. Stompa and blobs are a brutal combo. And as mentioned above, meltabombz. Knights are countered pretty badly both by tb and grots. They might have chances vs nobz if they bring melta and are lucky in mellee

If you are listening tailoring, use the bully box and 3 squads of tank bustas. The mega nobs will be fearless and hitting on 3s. With two kill saw nobs in each squad you are almost guaranteed to win. And hopefully the tankbustas finish the job. If you are not tailoring.... Well good luck.

The best bets Tau have against Knights are:

- Y'vahra. Only one won't destroy a IK, but will deal significant damage.
- Fusion Crisis. If you have Tetras, outflank them and you'll enjoy the fireworks.
- Stormsurges. ML those missiles for a sweet D deal
- Optimised Stealth Cadre - get the Cyclic Ion Raker on the Ghostkeels and enjoy hitting the Knights' AV12 buttocks.
- Gunfort fortification. 3 Railguns with Armourbane? Be sure to put a BS5 guy there.
- 3 Railgun Hammerheads
- Firebase Support Cadre. Native Tank Hunters, but inferior to the above options.
- And, if you're truly desperate... charge Strikers/Breachers/Pathfinders with EMP grenades!

The best thing is to provide different angles of attack, so the enemy will be forced to choose a side to protect with the shield... and then buff the shooting of the guys with access to the unprotected sides.

And, as said before, give the Knights speed bumps. Piranhas, Drones, Kroot, Stealth Suits (if you got the OSC)... anything not too expensive that would interest the Knights to keep themselves occupied away from your lines.

Breachers with EMPs would actually be a pain in the butt to deal with. Slap a guardian drone in there and now they can actually save against his attacks (most of them). Each EMP grenade in melee (which happens before stomp) is practically guaranteed damage. He still has his invul save but youre still bound to do a lot of damage.

Not the best since it requires melee and something tells me his 12" movement knights would want to not melee a large blob of EMP grenades.

OSC can do a lot of damage though. Knight's shield isnt on all 4 sides, so the OSC's melta shots can hit whatever side you want. If he puts it on front to avoid the D Missiles and other nasty guns, mirror shot into his ass. If he protects his ass from your OSC, then simply "dont" mirror shot and hit his face. Yeah its more armor, but its a melta shot and no invul. Yeah you lose the +1BS and ignore cover, but if you use the big formation you can still get +1BS by focusing all 3 units in the formation which youre doing already and the knight is so big if he has cover what the hell is he standing behind lol

notredameguy10 wrote:
Um, if you are a good player no, the ghost keels will not be dead. 6" move, if within 12" of commander can also run and still shoot, can Jetpack move back 2D6" will keep you away from the knights for quite awhile.

And you can assume the shield will not be placed on the rear armor every turn since the entire rest of your army will be shooting at the front.

3 Ghostkeel put out:
18 Str 7 shots. thats 15 hits. / all hit rear armor every time, so 2.5 glances and 5 penetrating hits
3 TL Str 8 AP 1 shots. 2.94 hits. / .5 glances and 1.5 penetrating hits

So that ONE formation does 3 glances and 6.5 penetrating hits every turn (add in Target Locks and you can hit more than one knights.

That is 6x 90 points of Tax from the stealth suits. This Disqualifies your idea for a competitive list IMO (480 pt tax). Plus the ITC format (the meta for which I plan and in which I play) only allow 3 detachments with only 1 duplicate. So, this is undo-able. Also dubious advice especially in the "Um not if you're a good player" / LTP attitude you approached a very non sarcastic question.

tag8833 wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
2.) Tankbustas: no friggin chance. It will take 9 TBs to strip a single hull point. All shoot. 3 hits. FA = 13. Needing 5+ re rollable. Reliably 2 go through. Saves half of them. So, you need like 45 shots to kill a knight in the front arc. Not gonna happen.

Tankbustas don't kill knights in shooting. They kill them in assault. Melta bombs.

That being said, they can do work in shooting. It takes 4 Tankbustas to take a hull point off of something that is AV 12 (Side armor) or 5.5 to take a hull point off of something that is AV 13. Double that if you are facing the side with invuls.

Now, if we look at assault... Each tankbusta averages 0.78 hull points. 38 Tankbustas will kill 5 knights dead in assault.

I see. But those TBs need to get a chance to swing. They will strike at Initiative 2 whereas the Knight strikes at Initiative 4, unless I'm mistaken. I will say, when the codex dropped, my previous derision of tankbustas persisted, but that has slowly been chipped away by both my experience and discussions in this forum. Therefore, I will give this more thought. Thanks.

Filch wrote:Ghostkeel shokts them in the rear and ignores the ion shield if they put it in the front.

Seriously, IK are super easy to kill. a 85pt model can 1hit ko one. WK on the other hand only die to mass grav shots.

Ghost keels only hit rear armor if taken as a part of a formation with 180 points of stealth suits. Also, if they lose a squad of suits, it appears (to my reading) that they might lose the"Hall of Mirrors" USR.

Further, to which 85 point model are you referring? I mean, a 40 point model can 1 shot a knight (MegaNob), but not reliably, and therefore certainly not 5 IKs, hence the impetus behind my original post.

 doktor_g wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
Um, if you are a good player no, the ghost keels will not be dead. 6" move, if within 12" of commander can also run and still shoot, can Jetpack move back 2D6" will keep you away from the knights for quite awhile.

And you can assume the shield will not be placed on the rear armor every turn since the entire rest of your army will be shooting at the front.

3 Ghostkeel put out:
18 Str 7 shots. thats 15 hits. / all hit rear armor every time, so 2.5 glances and 5 penetrating hits
3 TL Str 8 AP 1 shots. 2.94 hits. / .5 glances and 1.5 penetrating hits

So that ONE formation does 3 glances and 6.5 penetrating hits every turn (add in Target Locks and you can hit more than one knights.

That is 6x 90 points of Tax from the stealth suits. This Disqualifies your idea for a competitive list IMO (480 pt tax). Plus the ITC format (the meta for which I plan and in which I play) only allow 3 detachments with only 1 duplicate. So, this is undo-able. Also dubious advice especially in the "Um not if you're a good player" / LTP attitude you approached a very non sarcastic question.

what the heck are you talking about? You can take 3 ghost keel as a unit in one formation. You only need 2 squads of 3 stealth suits, and they are completely competitive now as they also get the +1BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor as well

And I was merely saying if you think a 3 ghost keel, who all get 2+ cover in the open, are auto dead then idk what to tell you lol

Vineheart01 wrote:Breachers with EMPs would actually be a pain in the butt to deal with. Slap a guardian drone in there and now they can actually save against his attacks (most of them). Each EMP grenade in melee (which happens before stomp) is practically guaranteed damage. He still has his invul save but youre still bound to do a lot of damage.

Only some Knights have invul on melee. AFAIK, none from GW.

doktor_g wrote:Also, if they lose a squad of suits, it appears (to my reading) that they might lose the"Hall of Mirrors" USR.

They don't. The Ghostkeels themselves project the Wall of Mirrors, so losing Stealth Suits will do nothing to that.

 doktor_g wrote:
...2.) Tankbustas: no friggin chance. It will take 9 TBs to strip a single hull point. All shoot. 3 hits. FA = 13. Needing 5+ re rollable. Reliably 2 go through. Saves half of them. So, you need like 45 shots to kill a knight in the front arc. Not gonna happen....

You forgot about bomb squigs, 3 hitting on 2+ with tankhunter. 2 mobs of 5 tankbustas each with 3 bomb squigs and all of a sudden that impregnable IK is dropping HPs quite quickly.
Also, partner up with Weirdboy with Da Jump and Killbolt, hit that gubbins up the arse with a brutal payload and no Invulnerable save, and you have a crippled/ dead IK in no time.
Don't write tankbustas off too quickly, I've killed loads of knights because of my OP's reliance on "math hammer".

To summarize, 3 ghost keel (in OSC) that cost ~450 points will kill about 2 knights (3 glance and 6.5 pen) in one single round of shooting... with no marker lights

notredameguy10 wrote:
To summarize, 3 ghost keel (in OSC) that cost ~450 points will kill about 2 knights (3 glance and 6.5 pen) in one single round of shooting... with no marker lights

How did you achieve those numbers? I'm using a CIR and a TLFB for my calculations.
BS5 (+1 Fire Team, +1 Wall of Mirrors): 15 CIR hits, 2.917 TLFB hits
Against AV12 with 4++: 1.25 Pen, 1.25 Glance from CIR; 1.215 Pen, 0.122 TLFB
Not even 4 HP stripped (not counting the 6 in the VDT)
Against AV12 without 4++: 2.5 Pen, 2.5 Glance from CIR; 2.431 Pen, 0.243 TLFB
7.6 HP, killing one IK.

With the melta arm weapon, the results are even worse.

 Vector Strike wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
To summarize, 3 ghost keel (in OSC) that cost ~450 points will kill about 2 knights (3 glance and 6.5 pen) in one single round of shooting... with no marker lights

How did you achieve those numbers? I'm using a CIR and a TLFB for my calculations.
BS5 (+1 Fire Team, +1 Wall of Mirrors): 15 CIR hits, 2.917 TLFB hits
Against AV12 with 4++: 1.25 Pen, 1.25 Glance from CIR; 1.215 Pen, 0.122 TLFB
Not even 4 HP stripped (not counting the 6 in the VDT)
Against AV12 without 4++: 2.5 Pen, 2.5 Glance from CIR; 2.431 Pen, 0.243 TLFB
7.6 HP, killing one IK.

With the melta arm weapon, the results are even worse.

I said that I am assuming that they will not be placing the shield on the rear armor as you still have 1200 points of other units shooting at their front armor. (including str D missiles from stormsurge)

But I apologize I must have written it wrong. Even still. That is reliably killing at least 1 IK per turn with a unit that costs ~450points that the knights will not be able to catch if properly used.

@Notredam. Sorry. My mistake about unit make up, and I apologize. I'm hypersensitive, apparently. You are absolutely right.

 doktor_g wrote:
@Notredam. Sorry. My mistake about unit make up, and I apologize. I'm hypersensitive, apparently. You are absolutely right.

Just trying to throw some ideas out there. Honestly for Tau against IK, Its Optimized Stealth Cadre, Stormsurges, Broadsides, and marker lights.

Honestly tau aren't very good. You should just scrap that army for more orks instead of wasting more time with it. For orks, everyone's already said the best answers. Just scrap those smelly fish

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Honestly tau aren't very good. You should just scrap that army for more orks instead of wasting more time with it. For orks, everyone's already said the best answers. Just scrap those smelly fish

Oh hey troll!

notredameguy10 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Honestly tau aren't very good. You should just scrap that army for more orks instead of wasting more time with it. For orks, everyone's already said the best answers. Just scrap those smelly fish

Oh hey troll!

Troll? I'm sorry, are you going to add anything, or just attempt to insult others? I gabe him my honest opinion. A knight player that knows what he is doing at all will have no problem with stormsurges, stealth cadre, and such. Easy pickings. Orks however have numbers. He asked for opinions and I gave one. If you have non to give, I suggest not posting again.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Honestly tau aren't very good. You should just scrap that army for more orks instead of wasting more time with it. For orks, everyone's already said the best answers. Just scrap those smelly fish

Oh hey troll!

Troll? I'm sorry, are you going to add anything, or just attempt to insult others? I gabe him my honest opinion. A knight player that knows what he is doing at all will have no problem with stormsurges, stealth cadre, and such. Easy pickings. Orks however have numbers. He asked for opinions and I gave one. If you have non to give, I suggest not posting again.

Yes, you are a troll. Ive seen your comments in many different topics and the only thing you do is trash tau and do not contribute at all to the topics.

My all comers tau list, that is not tailored at all for IK, will kill 2, most likely 3, knights in the first turn reliably, no matter what the opponent does. So whats up now?

So.....
Notredame

Youre w/i 18". You shoot. (Rear armor). Kaboom.
You move 7" away. (JSJ). So now you're 22" away on the high side. IK moves 12 charges. 1 GK is caught. 18"... thats a short range....

Youre right... I see me F'ing that movement up in a big way. Man i suck at this game.