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We've all seen the glorious picture of a Kroot player winning over a White Scars player by scouting onto his table edge, denying him a proper deploy zone. Now, is this a viable tactic? Holding your stuff in reserves to attack the enemys weakest point, that is. Say you have one or two small units like Scouts or Cultists deployed to hold the line, and then after one or two turns, your TWC/Bikers/Rough Riders head out and slaughter everything! Is this smart, or...?

Heavy reserves are no longer viable cause of maelstorm.

Even without Maelstrom, I find people often overuse reserves... Even overuse transports in my area at times. Seemingly more attracted to the idea of their strategic value than actually able to use it.

The key is reliability. If you can arrive turn one or two, you can build a strong strike plan. Especially with deep striking assault units, the earlier the better as it honestly doesn't take so long to cross the board that a turn four charge after fiddling with reserves isn't worse. And with transports? Get where you need to be and get in position, fast. Getting back in? Unless open topped to let you operate from inside, it takes at least a turn to embark and move then a turn to move and disembark to actually get anywhere.

Mucking around when you could be directly contributing to the battle is rarely a good idea, though obviously should be kept in mind as an option if it stands to get you a significant boost to your Maelstrom scoring.

Reserves are devastating if used correctly, but that right there is the key word: Correctly.

Matthew wrote:We've all seen the glorious picture of a Kroot player winning over a White Scars player by scouting onto his table edge, denying him a proper deploy zone. Now, is this a viable tactic? Holding your stuff in reserves to attack the enemys weakest point, that is. Say you have one or two small units like Scouts or Cultists deployed to hold the line, and then after one or two turns, your TWC/Bikers/Rough Riders head out and slaughter everything! Is this smart, or...?

koooaei wrote:Heavy reserves are no longer viable cause of maelstorm.

I would say it is viable but situational. Depending on a few factors.

Mission.
Some Maelstrom missions will deny most chances of winning, some wont.

Mobility
If your whole army can reach all objectives on the turn you arrive you got a good chance.

Flexibility
The question is, can you be mobile AND shoot effectively. If the answer is yes, well you are in business.

Just my thoughts

Say it's a mission where I need to get into the enemys deployment zone or to a special place on the board.

I rely heavily on reserves. If you want to go that route, you'll need to mitigate the 3+ roll.

The easiest way is an Aegis with Comms Relay. It will let you re-roll that.

Eldar can get an Autarch to turn the 3+ in a 2+.

There's a Stretegic Warlord Trait that lets you re-roll the 3+.

Dark Eldar has a nifty Warlord Trait that messes up even with enemies reserves.

Tau can use Infiltration Cadre to bait the enemy into killing a unit and bring down the pain (everything arrives next turn). Also, there's a formation that comes turn 2 (Retaliation Cadre) and other as well (the new airplane one from Mont'ka, with some conditionals).

SM has Drop Pods, which half of them arrives turn 1. Skyhammer formation comes turn 1 as well. Raven Guard, in the Kauyon book, has a special Detachment that allows you to roll for reserves at turn 1. There's a SM formation (Strike Force Ultra) which can roll from turn 1 as well. Sicarius, a SM HQ model, turns the 3+ into 2+.

GKs have a special Detachment to come from turn 1.

Scryer's Gaze, a Divination Psychic Power, lets you re-roll the 3+.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Second, you must decide what kind of reserve to use. I really like Deep Strike and Outflank, so I need to mitigate mistakes with those.

For DS, you need stuff to reduce or avoid scatter. All Marines, DE and Tau have tools for that (dunno about other armies).

For Outflank, the main thing is either Acute Senses (special rule) or equipment. AFAIK, Tau and Marine flavours have those.

Normal reserves (coming from your board edge) are only really worth for transport, flyers and long-range units.

 koooaei wrote:
Heavy reserves are no longer viable cause of maelstorm.

Fair point, but consider how seriously people actually take Maelstrom though...

I must probably correct myself. Heavy classic reserves are not viable cause you're coming on turn 2+. If you're coming on 1-st turn via pods or some new formations, you can go forth and send everyone in reserves - you'll be on board turn 1 anywayz.

Board presence is very important.

The only "traditional" (non-Drop Pod) reserve army you see much of at tournaments right now is Eldar; usually Jetbike-spam. You obviously can't do full reserve in 7th unless you have some trick to get something on the board before the end of the turn, and plenty of Jetbike armies use the Dark Eldar Scalpel Squadron to do that. Aim for second turn, deploy nothing, then the Scalpel comes in (potentially even getting FB bonus points) and on Turn 2 the bikes start showing up.

The biggest factor (other than access to the Scalpel Squadron) is having the speed to make up for arriving from your own board edge, which Jetbikes obviously do. For instance, Tau could hypothetically do a reserves army with their new Codex (if they have first turn), sacrificing a unit from an Infiltration Cadre and having everything else show up at bottom of 1--but the tax involved (in units) and the damage done to their positioning likely makes it irrelevant.

I find using reserves to be a strong strategy allowing a weaker list to beat strong "Killy" lists on objectives.

As has been said above, it's not always. Depends on the mission, your army, the enemy army, and if you can get second turn. The right mix of these can make using heavy reserves a winning play.

It'll vary depending on the unit.

For example, you keep Cultists in reserve to catch objectives late game, seeing as they're terrible for any other task.

I recently had a few games trying out a null deployment dark eldar. I had a unit of allies warp spiders hold a comms relay while my scapel squadron came on turn one killed a key unit and then had my army come on the next turn and accordingly bash them into a pulp. I think it's very viable.

That being said i also feel you need the right list/ army to do it. It isn't something you just slap together there is some deeper thinking.

Reserves will never be powerful unless you have a gimick formation that gives them ridiculous rules once they arrive or they finally give us the ability to simply say "Nah, i dont want them to come in" - nothing irritates me more than being forced to deepstrike a solo crisis suit before i could do anything about that lascannon unit. Crisis suit immediately gets sporked.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Reserves will never be powerful unless you have a gimick formation that gives them ridiculous rules once they arrive or they finally give us the ability to simply say "Nah, i dont want them to come in" - nothing irritates me more than being forced to deepstrike a solo crisis suit before i could do anything about that lascannon unit. Crisis suit immediately gets sporked.

Who is using a lascannon unit still?

What's wrong with lascannons?

 emptyhat wrote:
What's wrong with lascannons?

They suck? They can't kill tanks or MCs, so why bring them?

Martel732 wrote:

 emptyhat wrote:
What's wrong with lascannons?

They suck? They can't kill tanks or MCs, so why bring them?

Last time I checked, S9 weaponry is the best for killing tanks.

 Matthew wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 emptyhat wrote:
What's wrong with lascannons?

They suck? They can't kill tanks or MCs, so why bring them?

Last time I checked, S9 weaponry is the best for killing tanks.

Not S9, ROF 1. You want S 6/7 high ROF. SUch weapons also double as anti-MC and anti-horde. All single shot anti-tank weapons basically suck now.

As a Space Wolf player I rely on acute senses and great reserves mastery through Wolves Unleashed detachment.

It is one of my main army list focus. Many MSUs such as a few cheap Deep Striking Lone Wolves w/ Combi-Melta & Power/Chain Fists. Minimal Outflanking Grey Hunters in Rhinos maximized Melta war gear. cheap Dual Heavy Flamer Landspeeders.

I like the play style and feel of the game this way. Getting the first shot directly after arriving from reserves is huge.

 Matthew wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 emptyhat wrote:
What's wrong with lascannons?

They suck? They can't kill tanks or MCs, so why bring them?

Last time I checked, S9 weaponry is the best for killing tanks.

Last time you checked, was it with a calculator?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 emptyhat wrote:
What's wrong with lascannons?

They suck? They can't kill tanks or MCs, so why bring them?

Last time I checked, S9 weaponry is the best for killing tanks.

Last time you checked, was it with a calculator?

Last time I checked, AV 14 can't be harmed by S6/7 shots. Lascannons still have a place or you're not fighting enough Typhons (which FYI are able to be immune to the melta rule).

Pretty much any Titan or Armored Ceramite vehicle can be dealt with by Lascannons.


Back on topic though... yes, there is a purpose to holding things in Reserve. Since you aren't allowed to list tailor most of the time, the only control you have over whether your important counter unit survives the early game or not is by deploying him into Reserve and allowing what's on the board to take out the threats before his arrival. Think of it like sending in your infantry to wipe out SAM sites before bombing a facility with your air force. Space Marines have the easiest job at this with their turn 1 drop pods but it's possible for other factions to eliminate key threats before deploying otherwise vulnerable units.

Reserves suck, because units not on the board aren't contributing as targets or with their output.

 Arkaine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 emptyhat wrote:
What's wrong with lascannons?

They suck? They can't kill tanks or MCs, so why bring them?

Last time I checked, S9 weaponry is the best for killing tanks.

Last time you checked, was it with a calculator?

Last time I checked, AV 14 can't be harmed by S6/7 shots. Lascannons still have a place or you're not fighting enough Typhons (which FYI are able to be immune to the melta rule).

Pretty much any Titan or Armored Ceramite vehicle can be dealt with by Lascannons.


Back on topic though... yes, there is a purpose to holding things in Reserve. Since you aren't allowed to list tailor most of the time, the only control you have over whether your important counter unit survives the early game or not is by deploying him into Reserve and allowing what's on the board to take out the threats before his arrival. Think of it like sending in your infantry to wipe out SAM sites before bombing a facility with your air force. Space Marines have the easiest job at this with their turn 1 drop pods but it's possible for other factions to eliminate key threats before deploying otherwise vulnerable units.

That's an incredibly specific kind of vehicle though that you cherry picked as one of the few things that mass S6-7 fire can't hurt. Furthermore, even lascannons don't do enough damage since you still to roll 6's to do any meaningful damage if you pen and otherwise you're just slowly stripping away hull points (or in the case of titans, void shields). More often than not haywire or meltabomb spam works far better (and before you say armoured ceramite works against meltabombs, interestingly it doesn't since meltabombs don't have the melta rule, just armourbane). And the big thing is that those can't be taken in large numbers or often at all in most normal 40K games (maybe the typhon, but certainly not warhounds and above titans). And the bigger issue is that lascannons are not available in large quantities without paying a significant troop/infantry tax. By the time you've invested in 10+ lascannons in your army you've pretty much conceded on being able to kill anything else and the lascannons won't do jack against jinking bikers (of almost any sort, Eldar or SM), or handle things like wraiths efficiently.

 Grimskul wrote:
That's an incredibly specific kind of vehicle though that you cherry picked as one of the few things that mass S6-7 fire hurt.

The claim was why even take Lascannons, this is why. We're in the age of Apoc super heavies, if you're not finding value in one then you're obviously not fighting these "specific kinds of vehicles". No one is decrying the versatility of the Autocannon, only upholding the existing purpose of the Lascannon.

 Grimskul wrote:
Furthermore, even lascannons don't do enough damage since you still to roll 6's to do any meaningful damage if you pen and otherwise you're just slowly stripping away hull points (or in the case of titans, void shields).

Super Heavies are immune to all but the Explodes results so rolling 6s is virtually meaningless unless you roll ANOTHER 6 right after it. Stripping hull points and shields is exactly what you're doing most of the time.

 Grimskul wrote:
More often than not haywire or meltabomb spam works far better (and before you say armoured ceramite works against meltabombs, interestingly it doesn't since meltabombs don't have the melta rule, just armourbane).

Well aware of Armourbane, Be'lakor makes use of it himself, yet you're referring to charging into close combat against some of the most powerful walkers in the game. The rounds spent reaching them will have been paid for in blood, the walkers/tanks themselves can drive faster than most melta bomb carriers to keep the distance, and you truly need to hope that the one Sergeant in your squad who even has the Melta Bombs remains alive the entire way without getting removed due to back fire, nevermind the sufficient number of combat rounds required to assure the destruction of your target while getting only ONE melta bomb attack per Fight sub-phase. Meanwhile... that 140pt Predator you took is firing three lascannons per turn while the Devastators unload another four. I'm not saying they're worth taking in your average tourney list but Lascannons are definitely effective for anti-SHV work.

 Grimskul wrote:
And the big thing is that those can't be taken in large numbers or often at all in most normal 40K games (maybe the typhon, but certainly not warhounds and above titans). And the bigger issue is that lascannons are not available in large quantities without paying a significant troop/infantry tax. By the time you've invested in 10+ lascannons in your army you've pretty much conceded on being able to kill anything else and the lascannons won't do jack against jinking bikers (of almost any sort, Eldar or SM), or handle things like wraiths efficiently.

They're something you'd bring to counter large vehicles, are effective against wraiths, and you can always use Melta Bombs still against both (or a powerfist if you want more than one attack). If you can shoot a Wraith with Autocannons, you can also charge it with Thunder Hammers. It's actually less suicidal to do against a 2 shot GMC than approaching a 12 shot walker or a 20 shot tank.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
That's an incredibly specific kind of vehicle though that you cherry picked as one of the few things that mass S6-7 fire hurt.

The claim was why even take Lascannons, this is why. We're in the age of Apoc super heavies, if you're not finding value in one then you're obviously not fighting these "specific kinds of vehicles". No one is decrying the versatility of the Autocannon, only upholding the existing purpose of the Lascannon.

 Grimskul wrote:
Furthermore, even lascannons don't do enough damage since you still to roll 6's to do any meaningful damage if you pen and otherwise you're just slowly stripping away hull points (or in the case of titans, void shields).

Super Heavies are immune to all but the Explodes results so rolling 6s is virtually meaningless unless you roll ANOTHER 6 right after it. Stripping hull points and shields is exactly what you're doing most of the time.

 Grimskul wrote:
More often than not haywire or meltabomb spam works far better (and before you say armoured ceramite works against meltabombs, interestingly it doesn't since meltabombs don't have the melta rule, just armourbane).

Well aware of Armourbane, Be'lakor makes use of it himself, yet you're referring to charging into close combat against some of the most powerful walkers in the game. The rounds spent reaching them will have been paid for in blood, the walkers/tanks themselves can drive faster than most melta bomb carriers to keep the distance, and you truly need to hope that the one Sergeant in your squad who even has the Melta Bombs remains alive the entire way without getting removed due to back fire, nevermind the sufficient number of combat rounds required to assure the destruction of your target while getting only ONE melta bomb attack per Fight sub-phase. Meanwhile... that 140pt Predator you took is firing three lascannons per turn while the Devastators unload another four. I'm not saying they're worth taking in your average tourney list but Lascannons are definitely effective for anti-SHV work.

 Grimskul wrote:
And the big thing is that those can't be taken in large numbers or often at all in most normal 40K games (maybe the typhon, but certainly not warhounds and above titans). And the bigger issue is that lascannons are not available in large quantities without paying a significant troop/infantry tax. By the time you've invested in 10+ lascannons in your army you've pretty much conceded on being able to kill anything else and the lascannons won't do jack against jinking bikers (of almost any sort, Eldar or SM), or handle things like wraiths efficiently.

They're something you'd bring to counter large vehicles, are effective against wraiths, and you can always use Melta Bombs still against both (or a powerfist if you want more than one attack). If you can shoot a Wraith with Autocannons, you can also charge it with Thunder Hammers. It's actually less suicidal to do against a 2 shot GMC than approaching a 12 shot walker or a 20 shot tank.

If we're in the age of super-heavies, that makes lascannons all the more useless. Super-heavies are largely built to handle the conventional ranged single shot anti-tank of things like lascannons, if you haven't noticed, no one is complaining about mass dark lances or Eldar spamming Bright Lances, or marines taking lascannons devastators in a Skyhammer Formation. Why? Because they're incredibly inefficient at HP stripping. If you could take multiple lascannons at either a cheap price or on a tough mobile platform I would agree with you that they're good at HP-stripping from Super-Heavies but unfortunately this isn't the case. You can only take 1 on things like tac squads which is a waste and almost nobody does. Then you're either forced to take it on either devastators or predators, the upgrades for which are not cheap. Then the issue comes in that by the time you have enough saturation of lascannons in your army you're deficient in other crucial areas. Lascannons aren't versatile enough to invest in. Once again, the issue is that you need to pay the HQ troop tax just to gain access to them and the guys that can take the lascannons cannot deal with the mobility and firepower of superheavies since they can't move and shoot at full BS (I'm assuming you play on a table with enough LoS blocking terrain) and devastators are easy to get rid of, even in cover. You really bank on getting first turn to get that initial salvo in before the super-heavies hit home and even then that's presuming your opponent deploys it in front of the teeth of your army.

Also, I'm guessing you play in a MEQ heavy environment, as there's quite a few units with spammable meltabombs or haywire. I play Orks and tankbustas are almost an auto-include in any competitive list since they all come equipped with meltabombs. Even Eldar (perhaps unsurprisingly) have access to this via Fire Dragons, who have their crazy super +1 to the damage table for their weapons on top of it (4+ to explode is pretty fracking scary compared to lascannons), even guardsmen veterans have access to the demolitions doctrine that gives the entire unit meltabombs for a very modest price. Tau Breacher/Strike squads can upgrade everyone to have haywire grenades, Eldar Scourges have haywire guns. The list goes on. These guys unlike the lascannon are mobile, either have access to adequate protection/delivery mechanisms (webway portal for fire dragons or wave serpents, cheap as chips trukks or gunwagon squadrons if you have the points), are cheap enough to be spammable or sometimes are both. They can also handle other threats in a pinch by being anti-heavy infantry.

Also, I'm not sure where you were going with your rebuttal about my comment about wraiths, since necron wraiths are beasts so you can't use meltabombs against those. Furthermore, wraiths are T5 with a 3+ invuln. and often with a 4+ RP from the Canoptek Harvest formation, single shot high S weapons are about the worst weapons you could use against them.

Martel732 wrote:
Reserves suck, because units not on the board aren't contributing as targets or with their output.

That's the point. Some units don't want to get shot before they have a chance to make an impact. If they aren't able to put out optimal damage with their opponent on the other side of the table it is definitely a tactic worth considering.

 Clan Lykos wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Reserves suck, because units not on the board aren't contributing as targets or with their output.

That's the point. Some units don't want to get shot before they have a chance to make an impact. If they aren't able to put out optimal damage with their opponent on the other side of the table it is definitely a tactic worth considering.

So you leave 66% of your list to absorb 100% of the enemy firepower? Okay. Keep using reserves.

Reserves are totally usable as long as it plays to the style of the list, I recently played a Crucible tournament where 2 of my 3 games I scored prefect scores taking my opponents by turn 3, one of which was Tau!

It's all about having tough anchor units absorb the fire from the first turn and using fast units to Alpha strike exposed targets on turn 2 to get past cover saves and possibly get rear armor shots. Often the fear of your counter attack will make you opponent hold back a turn or two, or make sloppy mistakes trying to guess what you will do.

Some armies can play this style of combat better than others, obviously drop pod armies and fast armies like eldar can do more than slower lists like Orks or chaos.

Lascannons suck eh? Please tell that to my Tri Las predator and my slaaneshi obliterators who in the case of the oblits alternate between plasma Cannons and lascannons

I often will reserve 40-60 % of my army depending on my match up.