Switch Theme:

Pentagon Releases Report on MSF Hospital Attack  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

I know the previous thread was locked, but here is the conclusion of the investigation by the Pentagon on the attack of the MSF Hospital. Interestingly enough all the talk about "when terrorists hide out in hospitals" from the old thread turned out to be pretty irrelevant in this case. In the end it turned out to be a classic "Swiss Cheese Failure":

- US Officials were notified of the location of the hospital, but the gunship crew was not.
- They were called to fire upon a government compound overrun by Taliban forces which was located 450 yards away from the hospital.
- The aircraft initially took to support a different mission and did not receive an actual mission briefing when it was diverted to assist with the compound attack.
- Without the mission briefing they were not made aware of the location of the hospital nor that it was on a no-strike list
- Communication equipment was not working properly and they did not have good communication with ground troops.
- The gunship thought it was under attack and was targeting the compound from 8 miles away
- When they entered the coordinates the computer showed them an empty field due to being so far away that the targeting was inaccurate
- The crew did a visual of "a large building near an open field" and opened fire on the hospital
- There was no visual indication of gunfire that would indicate it as a hostile building, but they continued to fire.
- When the computer showed them the correct building they disregarded that information because they were already firing on a building matching the physical description despite the wrong coordinates
- When the ground officers got a call from MSF that their hospital was under attack it took them 17 minutes to realize that the AC-130 was the one firing on the building.

The Report:

Attack On MSF Hospital A 'Tragic But Avoidable Accident,' Pentagon Finds

A Pentagon investigation into a deadly U.S. airstrike on a Médecins Sans Frontières hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan, has found the attack was the result of human error, compounded by malfunctioning computers and communication failures.

Gen. John Campbell, the commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan, detailed the findings in a Pentagon briefing Wednesday. "This was a tragic and avoidable accident caused primarily by human error," he said.

What Happened

On Oct. 3, a special operations AC-130 gunship fired on the hospital facility for 29 minutes, according to the Pentagon. However, MSF has said the assault lasted for more than an hour.

The hospital's location was known to the U.S. military, and officials from MSF (also known as Doctors Without Borders) repeatedly phoned U.S. and Afghan military officials during the attack, trying desperately to stop the heavy fire.

The trauma center operated in Kunduz by Doctors Without Borders was in flames after U.S. airstrikes on Saturday that left 22 dead, including medical staff and patients.

At least 30 people, including patients and hospital staff, were killed and 37 others were wounded.

The First Explanations

A spokesman for Afghanistan's Interior Ministry said a day after the airstrike that the hospital was attacked because "terrorists" were hiding inside.

But beginning days after the attack, the U.S. military maintained that the facility was targeted by accident. "We would never intentionally target a protected medical facility," Campbell said Oct. 6.

At the time, U.S. officials did not explain how such a mistake was possible.

Report: A Series Of Avoidable Errors

The report released Wednesday indicates that while some U.S. officials were aware of the hospital's location, the gunship crew was not. The deadly attack "was a direct result of avoidable human error, compounded by process and equipment failures," Gen. Campbell said during the briefing.

The AC-130 gunship was supposed to be firing on a compound of the Afghan national intelligence agency that reportedly had been overrun by Taliban forces. The MSF hospital was 450 yards away from that compound.

The gunship fired on the hospital due to a series of errors, the report found, including:

Team inadequately briefed

The gunship took off 69 minutes early because of an emergency situation with troops on the ground, Campbell said. That meant the aircraft launched without a mission briefing.

When officials realized the gunship was not needed for that situation, it was diverted to Kunduz to target the compound — still lacking the information it otherwise would have received during a standard briefing, including the location of the nearby hospital and the fact that it was on a no-strike list.

Communications equipment malfunctioning

The AC-130's onboard computer was malfunctioning, leaving the crew without the ability to transmit video, email or electronic messages.

That led to insufficient communication between the aircraft crew and troops on the ground, the report found.

Location misidentified and unverified

The gunship, believing it was under attack from a surface-to-air missile, withdrew to an 8-mile orbit around the target in Kunduz — far enough to reduce the accuracy of its targeting methods. As a result, when the flight crew input the coordinates it had been given, the gunship's computers inaccurately displayed an open field as the target, the report found.

As a result, the crew used a physical description of "a large building near an open field" to identify what they thought was the proper target — but which was in fact the MSF hospital. Given the distance and that it was about 2 a.m., the crew was unable to see any signs indicating it was a hospital, according to the report.

The crew didn't undertake "appropriate measures" to verify that the facility was an appropriate target, the Pentagon says.

Contradicting information disregarded

The gunship crew did not observe any hostile activity from the hospital — no gunfire that would indicate it was, as they believed, a hostile target. They continued firing anyway.

As the plane got closer to the target, the computer system began showing the correct target instead of the open field. But the crew was "fixated on the physical description," Campbell says, and did not pay attention to the corrected grid coordinates.

Delay in ground response once notified

When an officer on the ground received a call from MSF indicating that the facility was under attack, it took 17 minutes for commanders to realize it was the AC-130 firing on the wrong target, the Pentagon says.

Questions Remain

About a dozen people have been suspended or are facing disciplinary actions, NPR's Tom Bowman reports. But it's unclear exactly what those consequences might be.

It's also unclear why it took a full 17 minutes for U.S. military personnel on the ground to realize the deadly error and why the Pentagon and MSF give very different durations for the attack.

As Tom notes, there has also been no explanation why the gunship crew would continue to fire — for about half an hour, according to the Pentagon — at a target that was not firing back.

The investigation says that while rules of engagement were violated, the hospital was not intentionally targeted. MSF has alleged in its account of that night that the airstrike presumably was a war crime.

MSF has demanded an independent investigation, saying that relying on an internal U.S. investigation would be "wholly insufficient."

   
Made in fr
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





That was... Dumb ?

I remember all the "Nope, US army cannot feth up to that extent".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/25 22:20:33


Scientia potentia est.

In girum imus nocte ecce et consumimur igni.
 
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

To be fair, there was quite a lot of "There's no way this was deliberate" and "This is probably a feth up" with a sprinkling of "Well, MSF is known to harbour terrorists" and "I'll wait and see but I bet there were terrorists in there"

I think to be honest though the screw up was awful, the US should be applauded for releasing such a candid analysis of what happened.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut





UK

So who gets to go to jail

(or at the very least gets demoted or reprimanded?)

if one thing goes wrong it's going to be the person responsible for that aspect of the operation,

since everything seems to have gone wrong should it not be the chief of staff ? (or at the very least the head of the US mission to Afganistan)

 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 d-usa wrote:

- US Officials were notified of the location of the hospital, but the gunship crew was not.
- They were called to fire upon a government compound overrun by Taliban forces which was located 450 yards away from the hospital.
- The aircraft initially took to support a different mission and did not receive an actual mission briefing when it was diverted to assist with the compound attack.
- Without the mission briefing they were not made aware of the location of the hospital nor that it was on a no-strike list
- Communication equipment was not working properly and they did not have good communication with ground troops.
- The gunship thought it was under attack and was targeting the compound from 8 miles away
- When they entered the coordinates the computer showed them an empty field due to being so far away that the targeting was inaccurate
- The crew did a visual of "a large building near an open field" and opened fire on the hospital
- There was no visual indication of gunfire that would indicate it as a hostile building, but they continued to fire.
- When the computer showed them the correct building they disregarded that information because they were already firing on a building matching the physical description despite the wrong coordinates
- When the ground officers got a call from MSF that their hospital was under attack it took them 17 minutes to realize that the AC-130 was the one firing on the building.


Sounds like First Information Bias taken to it's most ludicrous and tragic conclusion.

MSF has demanded an independent investigation, saying that relying on an internal U.S. investigation would be "wholly insufficient."


Gonna have to wait to see if we're doing slap on the wrist stuff or more serious "what the feth Fred? Were you high?!" but so far the investigation seems both sufficient and far more than what a lot of other countries do in these situations. We're trying damn it XD

   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




Turns out CAS is hard.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

It reminds me a little bit about the shooting of the Iranian passenger jet.
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 d-usa wrote:
It reminds me a little bit about the shooting of the Iranian passenger jet.


Nah that one was worse.

"But sir, we hailed them on all civilian and military radio frequencies!"

"Did you hail them on Air Traffic Control frequencies?"

"... But they were descending!"

"This says they were ascending, and they had their transponder on! Seriously Frank. Are you high right now?!"


   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Da Boss wrote:
To be fair, there was quite a lot of "There's no way this was deliberate" and "This is probably a feth up" with a sprinkling of "Well, MSF is known to harbour terrorists" and "I'll wait and see but I bet there were terrorists in there"

I think to be honest though the screw up was awful, the US should be applauded for releasing such a candid analysis of what happened.


And of course the low level guys get blamed. Who gave the shoot order? Who's commanding the unit that called in the strike and doesn't seem to realize the strike is not hitting the target (supposedly). No mention of these guys. Blame the victim!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So when is the report on the Russians bombing a hospital already and the Syrians shelling another hospital coming out?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 17:45:48


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Frazzled wrote:
So when is the report on the Russians bombing a hospital already and the Syrians shelling another hospital coming out?


Is your argument that we should be just as indiscriminate as the Russians and the Syrians? "They did it first" on a national scale?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in fr
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 Frazzled wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
To be fair, there was quite a lot of "There's no way this was deliberate" and "This is probably a feth up" with a sprinkling of "Well, MSF is known to harbour terrorists" and "I'll wait and see but I bet there were terrorists in there"

I think to be honest though the screw up was awful, the US should be applauded for releasing such a candid analysis of what happened.


And of course the low level guys get blamed. Who gave the shoot order? Who's commanding the unit that called in the strike and doesn't seem to realize the strike is not hitting the target (supposedly). No mention of these guys. Blame the victim!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So when is the report on the Russians bombing a hospital already and the Syrians shelling another hospital coming out?



Whataboutism ?

Scientia potentia est.

In girum imus nocte ecce et consumimur igni.
 
   
Made in gb
Morphing Obliterator






 Frazzled wrote:
So when is the report on the Russians bombing a hospital already and the Syrians shelling another hospital coming out?

Pretty sure the Russian hospital bombing was shown to be fake (assuming we're thinking about the same thing). #whataboutism

See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums. 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

Just before this event took place, I was sitting in our TOC watching something very similar.

From a bystanders point of view, it was pure chaos. You have multiple ISR assets providing information, multiple analysts relaying that information to the GFC (Ground Force Commander), and then the GFC making decisions based on that info, and giving permission to strike. All of these decisions are decisions that have to be made in a matter of seconds.

Now, I wasn't in the TOC when this affair happened, so I can't say I know what happened, but from other experiences I had, I can definitely understand how the process broke down. Bad strikes happen. They'll happen again, even with as careful as we try to be.

Should these guys end up in jail, have their careers ended, etc... I'm not sure. If the decision is made to keep "punishment" minimal, I won't be upset about it though. Kunduz was chaotic, to say the absolute least, and mistakes were bound to happen.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
So when is the report on the Russians bombing a hospital already and the Syrians shelling another hospital coming out?


Is your argument that we should be just as indiscriminate as the Russians and the Syrians? "They did it first" on a national scale?


Not at all. My argument is my statement? When will there be reports from them, or is it only the US?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

They won't, because the Russian public doesn't care. The American public, OTOH, does.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

We are not even past page 1 and the thread already got hit with the Frazzled "rarara frazzle frazzle herp derp" train.
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Co'tor Shas wrote:They won't, because the Russian public doesn't care. The American public, OTOH, does.

Dammit, every time I see your profile pic in the corner of my eye, it looks like Jesus XD.

To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.

We must all join the Kroot-startes... 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 d-usa wrote:
We are not even past page 1 and the thread already got hit with the Frazzled "rarara frazzle frazzle herp derp" train.

and your oh so witty commentary.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






What a mess.
Very sad it got good people killed.
I assume the people responsible will be punished?

Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





South Wales

I doubt that will be the case.

Prestor Jon wrote:
Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I doubt that will be the case.


About the only good thing that'll certainly come from this is that somebody in an office somewhere will write up a report about "How we could do our jobs better!" He'll make 50 copies, half of them will end up in the trash, the other half in the pile on everyone's desk, and maybe Gary will read it because he's bored

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

Major Portwood: Hi, Peter. What's happening? We need to talk about your mission briefs.
Captain Gibbons: Yeah. The coversheet. I know, I know. Uh, Bill talked to me about it.
Major Portwood: Yeah. Did you get that memo?
Captain Gibbons: Yeah. I got the memo. And I understand the policy. And the problem is just that I forgot the one time. And I've already taken care of it so it's not even really a problem anymore.
Major Portwood: Ah! Yeah. It's just we're putting new coversheets on all the mission briefs before they go out now. So if you could go ahead and try to remember to do that from now on, that'd be great. All right!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: I think we need a military version of Office Space...

I got eight different officers.
I beg your pardon?
Eight officers.
Eight?
Eight, Bob. So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled, that and the fear of an Article 15. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get court martialed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 23:00:50


 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 d-usa wrote:


I got eight different officers.
I beg your pardon?
Eight officers.
Eight?
Eight, Bob. So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled, that and the fear of an Article 15. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get court martialed.





They're just like any other office!

   
 
Forum Index » Off-Topic Forum
Go to: