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I love how picky you can be with 40k - If something doesn't sound right to you, you decide it's propaganda. Where does your line go? What do you see as propaganda, overestimating the setting?

I have a few...

"The Bolter is a rocket-propelled weapon of destruction, that decimates any enemy of Man, be it Ork, Eldar, Necron or the dreaded Chaos Space Marines. Armour-piercing bolts pierce flesh and armour alike and blows the body of the vile enemy to shreds in mere seconds."
Translation: "This archaic weapon is a forceful yet clumsy sub-machine gun, that was supposed to be all around powerful, but someone forgot the fact that a shaped charge with a low flight speed isn't good at killing much aliens, especially when they wear shaped armour that the small uranium tip can't pierce more than on the edge... I mean, uranium? Who came up with that?! We keep up an image of this holy, brutal weapon to make you believe we aren't completely screwed."

"The Space Marine is a gene-modificated meta-human, who can survive the most grueling wounds, regenerate all body tissue and even repel smaller arms. Their strength makes them stronger than any earthly animal and their speed is faster than you can percieve."
Translation: "Space Marines have a lot of modifications which allow them to stay virtually free of any smaller issues in a battlefield, being immune to most toxins and diseases, while having quickly healing wounds, bones and tissue. They are faster moving, due to stronger muscle strength, and have faster reflexes, owing to many improved centers of the brain. They cannot, however, survive many things that are just as deadly to a normal man, such as powerful concussions, body shock, limb loss and shots to vulnerable parts of the body - While generally resistant to pain, and heavily armoured, no soldier can survive everything. However, we describe them as godly beings moving in blurs and hitting accurately with every squeeze of the trigger to ensure that the masses don't realises that the fate of the Imperium often is in the hands of a few select warriors often grosly outmatched by the enemy force. This proves good for moral, and as Marines are rare enough that few can dispute it, the idea sits well in the minds of the people."

What are your propaganda assesments?

Pretty much agree to be honest. That and the Cavalry charge that wiped out an army of Necrons in a canyon...

Nothing. Most information is told from the view of an omnipresent narrator along with carrying information that in-universe would never get published/literally impossible to know, so it simply could not exist in-universe. Although the stance of in-universe propaganda is always moronic for that specific reason, quite simply everything is true. It's as if people who come into 40k have no experience with other franchises or fictions where canon is played with fast and loose.

You think 40k is inconsistent? Try reading 616 Marvel. No fiction is internally consistent with itself.

It's all propaganda. Every word of it.

Wyzilla wrote:Nothing.

Psienesis wrote:It's all propaganda. Every word of it.

Well that gives us an image of the fanbase in a nutshell.

The entirety of the "imperial infantryman's uplifting primer".

Especially the descriptions of the alien races with regards to human strength and vitality.

I've honestly found that a LOT of things make sense when considered as propaganda...

Cypher isn't a fallen Dark Angel at all! he's just playing the galaxies most intricate game of hide and seek!

If you look at every codex as a form of propaganda (multiple sources, if need be.) then things start to be... well, a bit more fun.

Ciaphas Cain.

Ibram Gaunt.

The whole the emperor is alive and a god thing is pure propaganda as is the absolute purity of grey kights.

I view most books and codexes as propoganda from GW itself. If you do not think that the space marines are the ultimate weapon, devoid of fear and fault, you will not buy them.
If you don't believe the IG are hard working and hard done to, with a few bad asses thrown in, you won't buy them.

Nobody wants to read about a purely average army that just gets by fairly well. They want to enjoy the setting.

Did I get too self analytical there?

If something makes my faction look bad, it is obviously propaganda and should be discredited!

Seriously, I think everything you read is of questionable reliability. All pieces of lore are written, rewritten, censored, mistranslated and mistold countless times before they reach your hands. Was it the Fire Drakes Imperial Guard Regiment that fought the Orks at Velasksi V? Or maybe it was actually the 1st Company of the Salamanders who are also known as the Fire Drakes and an Adept somewhere got confused. Was it the Swarmlord that wounded Marneus Calgar? Maybe it was only a Tyranid Warrior and later retellings bumped up the creature to make Calgar look better.

The question of what's true and what isn't is a moot point. Nothing in 40k is 100% true. It's up to the reader to determine what version of the truth they like best.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Was it the Swarmlord that wounded Marneus Calgar? Maybe it was only a Tyranid Warrior and later retellings bumped up the creature to make Calgar look better.

I love stuff like that! It's so cool when big and awesome heroes show just why they are heroes by losing to something kind of trivial. What I mean is that if all the heroes of a given faction, Space Marines for example, can solo Warbosses, suplex Carnifexes and smash open tanks all day long, you begin to wonder exactly what was so dangerous about the setting. By showing that a simple lucky/unlucky hit from a somewhat powerful opponent will stil wound or kill even big heroes, you show why it is that the body counts are so large, and why Space Marines are an endangered species.

I remember that the Chapter Master of the Raven Guard got killed in the rematch of the Damocles Crusade, in close quarters by commander Shadowsun, who by all means can't fight in melee. Some frowned; I loved the fact that even a big guy like him can fall to a simple salvo from a few powerful guns. And in the end, it wasn't even Shadowsun, but some other Shas'o fighting in her stead...

 Swastakowey wrote:
Pretty much agree to be honest. That and the Cavalry charge that wiped out an army of Necrons in a canyon...

I am surprised you didn't say Momstartes

 The Wise Dane wrote:


I remember that the Chapter Master of the Raven Guard got killed in the rematch of the Damocles Crusade, in close quarters by commander Shadowsun, who by all means can't fight in melee. Some frowned; I loved the fact that even a big guy like him can fall to a simple salvo from a few powerful guns. And in the end, it wasn't even Shadowsun, but some other Shas'o fighting in her stead...

In the Kauyon supplement, Raven guard Chapter Master Severax, was killed by shadowsun herself. He attacked a decoy wearing an exact duplicate of shadowsuns armour, killed the duplicate easily, then got blasted into oblivion by shadowsun herself who was in a cloaked ghostkeel suit nearby.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ciaphas Cain.

Ibram Gaunt.

Any book featuring Space Marines as protagonists/main characters

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Pretty much agree to be honest. That and the Cavalry charge that wiped out an army of Necrons in a canyon...

I am surprised you didn't say Momstartes

Well thats cannon. I got proof in my secret labs. Sure you can try play it off like propaganda but we all know it to be true.

The whole orks think things work so they work in regards to technology, when the whole spiel is written by a Tech Priest obviously making in-universe viewpoint.

 chalkobob wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:


I remember that the Chapter Master of the Raven Guard got killed in the rematch of the Damocles Crusade, in close quarters by commander Shadowsun, who by all means can't fight in melee. Some frowned; I loved the fact that even a big guy like him can fall to a simple salvo from a few powerful guns. And in the end, it wasn't even Shadowsun, but some other Shas'o fighting in her stead...

In the Kauyon supplement, Raven guard Chapter Master Severax, was killed by shadowsun herself. He attacked a decoy wearing an exact duplicate of shadowsuns armour, killed the duplicate easily, then got blasted into oblivion by shadowsun herself who was in a cloaked ghostkeel suit nearby.

Or so they say.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 chalkobob wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:


I remember that the Chapter Master of the Raven Guard got killed in the rematch of the Damocles Crusade, in close quarters by commander Shadowsun, who by all means can't fight in melee. Some frowned; I loved the fact that even a big guy like him can fall to a simple salvo from a few powerful guns. And in the end, it wasn't even Shadowsun, but some other Shas'o fighting in her stead...

In the Kauyon supplement, Raven guard Chapter Master Severax, was killed by shadowsun herself. He attacked a decoy wearing an exact duplicate of shadowsuns armour, killed the duplicate easily, then got blasted into oblivion by shadowsun herself who was in a cloaked ghostkeel suit nearby.

Or so they say.

Heh... Well, he was seperated at the stomach, and Shrike has already succesfully led a mission to retrieve his gene seed, so I don't think there's much to say on thst front. Also, Aun'va was assassinated by a Culexus assassin.

I don't think it's all "propaganda". That word has a specific meaning, and not all the background is written from the point of view of someone trying to persuade others to a particular viewpoint.

I do think it is all potentially subject to being remembered wrongly, misinterpreted or whatever, though.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I don't think it's all "propaganda". That word has a specific meaning, and not all the background is written from the point of view of someone trying to persuade others to a particular viewpoint.

I do think it is all potentially subject to being remembered wrongly, misinterpreted or whatever, though.

Yea I'm with you on this. Too much of the fluff from the codices is written from an out-of-universe, omniscient perspective for it to be propaganda. Sure you can interpret it how you want, and of course the codices are going to make the faction they're about look better, but there is a limit to how much leeway you have.

Plus Ork or Tyranid codices being "propaganda" seems incredibly silly. The fluff is there to explain the setting and set the stage for us to build on, not for us to reject as we wish. Otherwise it just becomes head-canon, as there is no common ground left for discussion.

I think the whole Necrons are an elder race from ancient times thing is propaganda.

They're very clearly created by the Old Ones (AKA Gork an Mork) so that they can act as a counterpart for the Orkz in the Great Waaagh and give them a fight.

The Ctan were revolutionary terrorists who believed that the Necrons should be free to choose their own path in life, and gave the Necrons sentience.

They did this cause they hate the Warp (since Gork an Mork are the embodiment of the Warp) and they wanna fight G/M cause they got made fun of for not being able to walk and havin to fly all the time.

They didn't expect to be destroyed/enslaved by the Necrons true nature of Robo-Orkz for their goodwill, though.

Alls going according to plan for G/M, except for one thing.
Tyranids (aka The Emperor).

Unbenknownst to even GorkaMorka, the Emperornids have planted a seed of treachery in the innocent orks midst.
THE SQUIGS.
Both the Squigs and the Nids eat all the time. See?

You may think, how is the Emperor of MANKIND the leader of the Tyranids too?
Well, think about it dummy!
Bugs are hard on the outside and squishy on the inside, right?
Well humans are squishy on the outside and hard on the Inside.
See the similarities now?

^I'm guessing the above post is probably meant as a joke but that's what I mean; it's so far out there you might as well be talking about a different setting. That makes 40k background completely pointless.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I don't think it's all "propaganda". That word has a specific meaning, and not all the background is written from the point of view of someone trying to persuade others to a particular viewpoint.

I do think it is all potentially subject to being remembered wrongly, misinterpreted or whatever, though.

Yea I'm with you on this. Too much of the fluff from the codices is written from an out-of-universe, omniscient perspective for it to be propaganda. Sure you can interpret it how you want, and of course the codices are going to make the faction they're about look better, but there is a limit to how much leeway you have.

Plus Ork or Tyranid codices being "propaganda" seems incredibly silly. The fluff is there to explain the setting and set the stage for us to build on, not for us to reject as we wish. Otherwise it just becomes head-canon, as there is no common ground left for discussion.

I prefer to think of as much of the background as possible as being presented from an in-universe perspective. Ironically, the Tyranids' background, despite being the most alien group, seems to be the most "Imperial" in its viewpoint; I'm not sure if there's much at all that couldn't be known by the Imperium. The Eldar, Orks and Tau books have more details that only they would likely know.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
^I'm guessing the above post is probably meant as a joke but that's what I mean; it's so far out there you might as well be talking about a different setting. That makes 40k background completely pointless.

It is, basically, how the IP is designed to work. What you think and what someone else thinks is fine. Neither of you are wrong. Neither of you are right. That is how the IP functions. It is, also, pointless, because we're talking about the fictional setting for a game of expensive toy soldiers.

 Psienesis wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
^I'm guessing the above post is probably meant as a joke but that's what I mean; it's so far out there you might as well be talking about a different setting. That makes 40k background completely pointless.

It is, basically, how the IP is designed to work. What you think and what someone else thinks is fine. Neither of you are wrong. Neither of you are right. That is how the IP functions. It is, also, pointless, because we're talking about the fictional setting for a game of expensive toy soldiers.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

But yea, I understand that the freedom to interpret fluff exists, yet at the same time there is a certain basis in the canon. As in, for example, Orks reproduce through spores, not through sexual reproduction. That's something that's just part of the setting and not really open to interpretation. There are very real limits to how far you can stretch the fluff to suit your own head-canon.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
^I'm guessing the above post is probably meant as a joke but that's what I mean; it's so far out there you might as well be talking about a different setting. That makes 40k background completely pointless.

It is, basically, how the IP is designed to work. What you think and what someone else thinks is fine. Neither of you are wrong. Neither of you are right. That is how the IP functions. It is, also, pointless, because we're talking about the fictional setting for a game of expensive toy soldiers.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

But yea, I understand that the freedom to interpret fluff exists, yet at the same time there is a certain basis in the canon. As in, for example, Orks reproduce through spores, not through sexual reproduction. That's something that's just part of the setting and not really open to interpretation. There are very real limits to how far you can stretch the fluff to suit your own head-canon.

The spore thing is not a constant in the setting, however. Back in the day? The Orks were a gendered race. When it was time to procreate, a Boy would "feel a bit funny" and go wandering off into the wilds to where the non-combatants of the tribes lived.

 Psienesis wrote:
The spore thing is not a constant in the setting, however. Back in the day? The Orks were a gendered race. When it was time to procreate, a Boy would "feel a bit funny" and go wandering off into the wilds to where the non-combatants of the tribes lived.

Yea but that's been retconned thoroughly since at least 3rd ed. Pick up any Ork codex since then and it will mention spores. It's become part of the setting. There's really no way to reconcile that with the current fluff.

That's what I'm getting at. Fluff changes. If you want to go with RT-era Orks? Go ahead. There's no law saying you have to agree with the fluff in the current edition.

except at some point the current overrides the old especially if it's been several addition and multiple sources.