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Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






 FlingitNow wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting. 


Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).


Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"


I have actually referenced the relevant rules. CF being the main one and also the shooting phase in particular step 3 which explains when shooting occurs and step 4 which sets up that shooting consists of firing shots.


no. YOU are making the complete assumption that the word "shoot" means having to actually fire a weapon. YOU are saying HYWPI.

Other people have posted rules references form BRB and CFP showing that "shooting" equates to completing the shooting sequence. You are just choosing to ignore that.

2500 2500 2200  
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting. 


Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).


Sorry pal, but I quoted rules whereas you go on with "but that's English language man". Why don't you hit the triangle if you think I didn't support my position with real actual rules?



The Signless recheck what you said at step 3 vs your rules quote. The models don't fire 0 shots they are not allowed to shoot thus if you are counting them as having shot you have broken that very rule you quoted.


I pasted the rule from BRB earlier, look it up. It clearly says I am allowed not to shoot with any weapon. Now show me the rule that forbids me from choosing a target on the opposite corner out of range but clearly in line of sight?

Some people at least can admit when they are shown to have been wrong. Why can't you?
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting. 


Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).


Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"


I have actually referenced the relevant rules. CF being the main one and also the shooting phase in particular step 3 which explains when shooting occurs and step 4 which sets up that shooting consists of firing shots.


no. YOU are making the complete assumption that the word "shoot" means having to actually fire a weapon. YOU are saying HYWPI.

Other people have posted rules references form BRB and CFP showing that "shooting" equates to completing the shooting sequence. You are just choosing to ignore that.


Look at the shooting phase steps 3&4 they also make the link between shooting and firing shots. However that is unnecessary as that is how English works. In English if I have fired shots I have shot. If you wish to use a different definition of having shot then you must supply the rules that give that definition. That is how rules work, you assume English definitions of words (or how can you even begin to read the rules) unless they give you a different definition of that term. Is English that difficult for you to understand? If so trying to get into a rules debate about rules written in English is not going to be productive as you won't be able to either understand the rules or the arguments made. So please go and learn some English and then come back and we may be able to have a productive conversation.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






 FlingitNow wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting. 


Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).


Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"


I have actually referenced the relevant rules. CF being the main one and also the shooting phase in particular step 3 which explains when shooting occurs and step 4 which sets up that shooting consists of firing shots.


no. YOU are making the complete assumption that the word "shoot" means having to actually fire a weapon. YOU are saying HYWPI.

Other people have posted rules references form BRB and CFP showing that "shooting" equates to completing the shooting sequence. You are just choosing to ignore that.


Look at the shooting phase steps 3&4 they also make the link between shooting and firing shots. However that is unnecessary as that is how English works. In English if I have fired shots I have shot. If you wish to use a different definition of having shot then you must supply the rules that give that definition. That is how rules work, you assume English definitions of words (or how can you even begin to read the rules) unless they give you a different definition of that term. Is English that difficult for you to understand? If so trying to get into a rules debate about rules written in English is not going to be productive as you won't be able to either understand the rules or the arguments made. So please go and learn some English and then come back and we may be able to have a productive conversation.


So basically YOU have no support from the actual rules. The only argument you have now is "thats how english works" and "i am right"

2500 2500 2200  
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





I pasted the rule from BRB earlier, look it up. It clearly says I am allowed not to shoot with any weapon. Now show me the rule that forbids me from choosing a target on the opposite corner out of range but clearly in line of sight? 

Some people at least can admit when they are shown to have been wrong. Why can't you?


Well done you quoted a rule that allows you to choose not to fire a weapon during a shooting attack. Where have I disputed that permission? Why is that permission remotely relevant? Then you ask for me to find a restriction against an action I have never disputed you can take. Why? I mean what are you even trying to argue here? Shall I take your tac and demand you show proof that Space Marines aren't T4?

So we know what shoot means in English. We know the rules tell us models shoot weapons by firing shots. We know the process for firing shots and being in range is a requirement to do that. This is all from the shooting phase steps 3 & 4.

We know that to be in a CF all units MUST shoot at the initial target. So know you have to show why targeting the unit and firing no shots is still shooting the unit contra to both English and what the rules say about shooting.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




Please stick to what it says in the rulebook. Here is a direct quote, hope you find it useful: BRB pg 31 says: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.

Do you actually have anything based to a rule from the rulebook or will you default to the English definition of shooting?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/06 21:57:26


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting. 


Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).


Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"


I have actually referenced the relevant rules. CF being the main one and also the shooting phase in particular step 3 which explains when shooting occurs and step 4 which sets up that shooting consists of firing shots.


no. YOU are making the complete assumption that the word "shoot" means having to actually fire a weapon. YOU are saying HYWPI.

Other people have posted rules references form BRB and CFP showing that "shooting" equates to completing the shooting sequence. You are just choosing to ignore that.


Look at the shooting phase steps 3&4 they also make the link between shooting and firing shots. However that is unnecessary as that is how English works. In English if I have fired shots I have shot. If you wish to use a different definition of having shot then you must supply the rules that give that definition. That is how rules work, you assume English definitions of words (or how can you even begin to read the rules) unless they give you a different definition of that term. Is English that difficult for you to understand? If so trying to get into a rules debate about rules written in English is not going to be productive as you won't be able to either understand the rules or the arguments made. So please go and learn some English and then come back and we may be able to have a productive conversation.


So basically YOU have no support from the actual rules. The only argument you have now is "thats how english works" and "i am right"


I think you have just proven me right. Seriously learn some English. Or explain why in English you can shoot without having ever shot?

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




We know that to be in a CF all units MUST shoot at the initial target.


And they are. Some of the models just will not fire their weapons, which is supported by the actual rules quote.

Do you have anything else than your house rule and insults to learn English? If not, I think we are done here.
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






 FlingitNow wrote:
I pasted the rule from BRB earlier, look it up. It clearly says I am allowed not to shoot with any weapon. Now show me the rule that forbids me from choosing a target on the opposite corner out of range but clearly in line of sight? 

Some people at least can admit when they are shown to have been wrong. Why can't you?


Well done you quoted a rule that allows you to choose not to fire a weapon during a shooting attack. Where have I disputed that permission? Why is that permission remotely relevant? Then you ask for me to find a restriction against an action I have never disputed you can take. Why? I mean what are you even trying to argue here? Shall I take your tac and demand you show proof that Space Marines aren't T4?

So we know what shoot means in English. We know the rules tell us models shoot weapons by firing shots. We know the process for firing shots and being in range is a requirement to do that. This is all from the shooting phase steps 3 & 4.

We know that to be in a CF all units MUST shoot at the initial target. So know you have to show why targeting the unit and firing no shots is still shooting the unit contra to both English and what the rules say about shooting.


So you are saying the requirement is to do steps 3 & 4, Thats HYWPI. What happens if I have a gets hot weapon and it rolls a gets hot and cannot fire? Have I completed shooting. Yes. Have I actually fired anything? No.

Again, you are not listening to the fact that MODELS are the things that shoot. UNITS do not shoot. UNITS can follow the shooting sequence, but only MODELS can actually shoot. If the rules say the UNIT must shoot at the same target, that means the UNIT must target the same unit, but does NOT actually mean it has to fire.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 FlingitNow wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting. 


Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).


Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"


I have actually referenced the relevant rules. CF being the main one and also the shooting phase in particular step 3 which explains when shooting occurs and step 4 which sets up that shooting consists of firing shots.


no. YOU are making the complete assumption that the word "shoot" means having to actually fire a weapon. YOU are saying HYWPI.

Other people have posted rules references form BRB and CFP showing that "shooting" equates to completing the shooting sequence. You are just choosing to ignore that.


Look at the shooting phase steps 3&4 they also make the link between shooting and firing shots. However that is unnecessary as that is how English works. In English if I have fired shots I have shot. If you wish to use a different definition of having shot then you must supply the rules that give that definition. That is how rules work, you assume English definitions of words (or how can you even begin to read the rules) unless they give you a different definition of that term. Is English that difficult for you to understand? If so trying to get into a rules debate about rules written in English is not going to be productive as you won't be able to either understand the rules or the arguments made. So please go and learn some English and then come back and we may be able to have a productive conversation.


So basically YOU have no support from the actual rules. The only argument you have now is "thats how english works" and "i am right"


I think you have just proven me right. Seriously learn some English. Or explain why in English you can shoot without having ever shot?


Haha you are a fool. This happens in every thread you are in. You don't agree, don't support anything, and just ignore every single comment against you and say you are right or insult people

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/06 22:03:35


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Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Naw wrote:
Please stick to what it says in the rulebook. Here is a direct quote, hope you find it useful: BRB pg 31 says: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.

Do you actually have anything based to a rule from the rulebook or will you default to the English definition of shooting?


What is the relevance of this?

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




If you fail to see that then you do not follow the rules.

I noticed you ignored my example earlier. Please look it up as it is very relevant to this.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





So you are saying the requirement is to do steps 3 & 4, Thats HYWPI. What happens if I have a gets hot weapon and it rolls a gets hot and cannot fire? Have I completed shooting. Yes. Have I actually fired anything? No. 

Again, you are not listening to the fact that MODELS are the things that shoot. UNITS do not shoot. UNITS can follow the shooting sequence, but only MODELS can actually shoot. If the rules say the UNIT must shoot at the same target, that means the UNIT must target the same unit, but does NOT actually mean it has to fire. 


So units never shoot? So units can never take part in a Coordinated Firepower action as that requires them to shoot. Yes shooting is a model level action but if one of more models in a unit performs the action then the unit has performed that action. Again basic English here.

So you again state the unit only has to target the unit not shoot the unit. CF still disagrees with you as it has done this entire time.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Not as Good as a Minion





Astonished of Heck

_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all

Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.

X078 wrote:"The Shooting Phase
...Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase."

(and no you do not need to carry out each step as detailed in said steps)

Like stated before in this thread you resolve each phase and by that it is resolved. If you are looking for a rule that states e.g. "now your unit counts as being ultimately done with the shooting phase" you will not find one because it does not exist and is not needed. If you think that it should exist then i suggest you continue posting it as HYWPI where it belongs.

1) Where does it state that you do not need to carry out each step as detailed in said steps? Sure, a plethora of roll1's To-Hit will make To-Wound rolls and later superfluous, but at least how the game uses Shoot in the rest of the rulebook has at least been satisfied.

2) If having attempted to go through a Phase means that one has performed according to that Phase, than that has HUGE consequences for the following:
-a) A model completely surrounded by Enemies and cannot move without violating the 1" rule, but not Engaged would count as Moving.
-b) A model with a Heavy , Salvo, or Ordnance Weapon, and not possessing the benefits of Relentless or Slow and Purposeful, would be limited to Snap Shot situations since they "moved" in the Movement Phase.
-c) A model was involved in the Shooting Phase who carries a Rapid Fire, Heavy, etc Weapon would not be able to Charge since it Shot it.
- And that's just off the top off my head. But hey, I guess that means my Necrons are now Psychic since they go through the Psychic Phase, right?!

Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
The Space Marine’s Ballistic Skill of 4 means that he will hit more often when shooting.

4. Shooting phase. You now shoot with any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the shooting rules for more details on how to resolve this.

In cases like this, we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its ‘actual’ location. If, later on, your enemy is considering shooting at the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so he can check line of sight.

Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons. Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power.

You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.

4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.

5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target.

7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.

Who Can Shoot?
Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:
• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running.
This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs.

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting.

First, select a weapon that one or more models in your unit are equipped with. The selected weapon cannot be one that the unit has shot with during this phase. All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon.

If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it is equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots with all the same named weapons when that weapon is selected.

player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before rolling To Hit. If a model chooses not to shoot with the currently selected weapon now, it cannot fire that weapon later during the same phase (but it can shoot a differently named weapon it is equipped with). All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time, regardless of whether or not all of the dice are rolled together.

Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.

Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.

Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.

And so on...

At no point is the verb "shoot" and its associate noun "shot" ever in a position of definition of "having completed a Shooting Attack or Shooting Sequence". So, unless you can provide a proper contextual quote to support that definition you support, I think we're done here.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






 FlingitNow wrote:
So you are saying the requirement is to do steps 3 & 4, Thats HYWPI. What happens if I have a gets hot weapon and it rolls a gets hot and cannot fire? Have I completed shooting. Yes. Have I actually fired anything? No. 

Again, you are not listening to the fact that MODELS are the things that shoot. UNITS do not shoot. UNITS can follow the shooting sequence, but only MODELS can actually shoot. If the rules say the UNIT must shoot at the same target, that means the UNIT must target the same unit, but does NOT actually mean it has to fire. 


So units never shoot? So units can never take part in a Coordinated Firepower action as that requires them to shoot. Yes shooting is a model level action but if one of more models in a unit performs the action then the unit has performed that action. Again basic English here.

So you again state the unit only has to target the unit not shoot the unit. CF still disagrees with you as it has done this entire time.

Reread the rules.

Model shooting = actually firing the weapon
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit

2500 2500 2200  
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Naw wrote:
If you fail to see that then you do not follow the rules.

I noticed you ignored my example earlier. Please look it up as it is very relevant to this.


So explain to me then. The unit starts a shooting attack and chooses to shoot with no models, thus it has not shot RaW. What does that mean to you?

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




So if I have 3 units of 3 models each in CF and according to CF they shoot as a single unit, by your house rule I am not allowed to choose which models shoot. I think this is now clear.
   
Made in cn
Sister Vastly Superior





 FlingitNow wrote:
The Signless recheck what you said at step 3 vs your rules quote. The models don't fire 0 shots they are not allowed to shoot thus if you are counting them as having shot you have broken that very rule you quoted.
Continuing the example of my ork squad:
BRB wrote:First, select a weapon that one or more models in your unit are equipped with. The selected weapon cannot be one that the unit has shot with during this phase. All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon.
I have selected the shoota. Check.


Now we enter the region where there is much debate
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
Model is defined as:
The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow.
We agree that the ork model cannot shoot. However the rules do of combined firepower do not refer to models, but to units shooting.
Units are first referred to as:
In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.
While this case is ambiguous and can really be used to argue either case (showing that GW really needs to rethink their rules), later cases do make cleat that there is a difference between models and units. For example in the leadership test:
At certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test.
Here is is shown that there is a divide between what is a unit and what is a model. If units were only the models, then the rules would not specify the unit as a separate entity from the model.
Another example of this divide is in the removing casualties section:
When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’.
Here, it is not the models that count as completely destroyed, they count as casualties. It is the unit that counts as completely destroyed. These show that a unit is a separate entity from the models from which it is made as they have their own statuses, on of which is having made a shooting attack.


Bringing all of this back to the main point about shooting. In this case the model can not shoot. The unit then has produced 0 shots from this weapon. Before you pounce upon the point that it has produced 0 shots:
A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.
This means that a model that is in range (with range 36" big shoota) could elect to produce 0 shots while shooting at the target. Check.
This number (0) is applied to check off boxes 4-6 of the shooting sequence. After going through the entire process again with the sluggas:
If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack.
The unit has now completed its shooting attack, fulfilling its obligations towards the coordinated firepower rule. While no model has successfully shot the enemy, the unit has made its shooting attack.

Still waiting for Godot. 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit


You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
Naw wrote:
If you fail to see that then you do not follow the rules.

I noticed you ignored my example earlier. Please look it up as it is very relevant to this.


So explain to me then. The unit starts a shooting attack and chooses to shoot with no models, thus it has not shot RaW. What does that mean to you?


Ah what? Did you follow the shooting steps from 1 to 7? Why did you stop at nr 3?

I don't care to copy/paste my earlier message. I'm sure you can look it up.
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






 FlingitNow wrote:
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit


You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.


Shots are resolved AS IF ONE UNIT.

If Units A, B, & C are now considered Unit D for the duration of shooting, unit D (and thus units A, B & C) is shooting at the same target even if models from unit B choose not to fire.

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Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Naw wrote:
So if I have 3 units of 3 models each in CF and according to CF they shoot as a single unit, by your house rule I am not allowed to choose which models shoot. I think this is now clear.


Why not? You must choose at least 1 model from each unit that can fire to fire at the target as CF requires that. Normally you are free to choose not to shoot with any or all models in a units shooting attack. CF changes that as it specifies that each unit must fire shoot (at least something) at the designated target.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes shooting is a model level action but if one of more models in a unit performs the action then the unit has performed that action.


Do you have a rules quote for this assertion?

So according to your rationale, a unit of 1 soldier with a 'heavy 1 blast gets hot gun' that rolls a 'Gets Hot!' will not count as having shot in the shooting sequence and will get to shoot again or run and/or assault later on in that turn? Is this what you are espousing?

Per the rules, a unit shoots when it makes a legal shooting attack attempt and elects to go through the shooting process outlined in the shooting sequence. The only requirement is that the unit has line of sight with the target unit. The rules don't care whether or not any actual models fire a shot (those shots could never happen due to Gets Hot or players choice or some other reason like being out of range). The CF rules deal with units and not models.

The Gets Hot example proves that Fling's argument is wholly untenable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/06 22:27:24


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Naw wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Naw wrote:
If you fail to see that then you do not follow the rules.

I noticed you ignored my example earlier. Please look it up as it is very relevant to this.


So explain to me then. The unit starts a shooting attack and chooses to shoot with no models, thus it has not shot RaW. What does that mean to you?


Ah what? Did you follow the shooting steps from 1 to 7? Why did you stop at nr 3?

I don't care to copy/paste my earlier message. I'm sure you can look it up.


You said you were stopping at 3 by making no selection at stage 3.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

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Buffalo, NY

notredameguy10 wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit


You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.


Shots are resolved AS IF ONE UNIT.

If Units A, B, & C are now considered Unit D for the duration of shooting, unit D (and thus units A, B & C) is shooting at the same target even if models from unit B choose not to fire.


But are units B & C able to fire? We know Unit A is as otherwise you would not be able to utilise CF, but are units B & C

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 FlingitNow wrote:
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit


You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.


How about you start discussing the game rules and forget the English language here. It has no bearing in this as has been shown by many, you just keep ignoring everything.
   
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col_impact wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes shooting is a model level action but if one of more models in a unit performs the action then the unit has performed that action.


Do you have a rules quote for this assertion?

So according to your rationale, a unit of 1 soldier with a 'heavy 1 blast gets hot gun' that rolls a 'Gets Hot!' will not count as having shot in the shooting sequence and will get to shoot again or run and/or assault later on in that turn? Is this what you are espousing?

Per the rules, a unit shoots when it makes a legal shooting attack attempt and elects to go through the shooting process outlined in the shooting sequence. The only requirement is that the unit has line of sight with the target unit. The rules don't care whether or not any actual models fire a shot (those shots could never happen due to Gets Hot or players choice or some other reason like being out of range). The CF rules deal with units and not models.

The Gets Hot example proves that Fling's argument is wholly untenable.


This^

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Charistoph wrote:
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all

Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.

Charistoph wrote:
Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
OK, but I'm skipping to the important bits.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Notice the lack of any mention of range when you select a target unit.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
Again note that it is models that are armed with a weapon, not units.
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
So any model that is found to be not in range cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.


Can people please keep the insults to a minimum. I'm sure we can discuss this if everyone just quotes rules and chills. Remember, it's just a game.

Still waiting for Godot. 
   
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Belgium

Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot


I don't get why you people are ignoring this...

And don't start with the Units=/=Models bullcrap, a unit is made out off models ffs.

I don't get why its so difficult, if you're not in range , you're not in range, its simple, you just need to move accordingly or use other units that are in range instead of wanting to use shenaningans to use units that cannot do anything to get the special rule.

Heck if you really can do this, then i don't see why i cannot assault more then 12", since you ignore range.

i've discussed this with the best Tau players of our area and they all agree, that while this is comicale, if a unit is out of range, it doesn't shoot, point.

The only Tau player i know that says ohter wise is the kind of guy that still wants to play Rail guns as Str10 Ap1...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/06 22:47:00


   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot


Lol thanks for the insight. Please read the actual thread first. models cannot. there is no requirement for range for units to enter the shooting sequence, and thus shoot.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/06 22:44:10


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Belgium

notredameguy10 wrote:
 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot


Lol thanks for the insight. Please read the actual thread first. models cannot. there is no requirement for range for units to enter the shooting sequence, and thus shoot.


So units are not made out of models?...


Well thats new...

   
 
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