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Breotan wrote: Malifaux now has a two player starter set that comes complete and allows you to play straight out of the box.
Seconding this.
The great thing about the Malifaux starter is how they integrated it with the game. Instead of giving you existing models, the starter has got 2 crews of 4 models which are entirely unique to the starter. They also gap fill their factions a bit (the Guild Doctor is a fast Melee beater henchman which Guild lacks, the girl with the rifle is a ranged support henchmen which Neverborn lack) without being required. They're very simple units with easy to follow rules (contrast to some of the more complex units in the game) which tend to have one role and do it well. They're also all Mercenaries, so any faction can take them with a small tax. So if you start with it, and decide on another faction later on, you can still use everything from the box.
Also seconding Infinity Operation Icestorm. You get 2 relatively balanced forces which are also really good cores for expanding on. They also had the foresight to include terrain in the box, which is simple colour printed cardstock so you can get playing quicker.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/07 04:08:49
Warmachine & Hordes and Infinity (Operation Icestorm) are pretty good. I don't have the Dropzone Commander one but the content looks good. I can't really comment on Malifaux.
This in terms of starters that have both good miniatures, good rules and aren't too expensive.
Necros wrote: Here's a slightly different question ... what makes a good 2 player starter set?
Low price? Lots of minis cheaper than buying separate? Terrain and dice and everything so you can play right out of the box?
Low price to get into the game.
Not necessarily lots of minis in the starter set. But a starter set that lets you give a feeling for the game. Terrain and dice are add-ons.
WMH has those starter sets - a warcaster and a small battle group.
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I'd also add, "a complete enough experience that leaves you wanting for more but is still satisfying by itself."
That's where a lot of starter sets I've seen massively fall down. - A key example is Star Wars Armada. The starter set is fine and all (on the *very* expensive side at full RRP) but flipping heck, is it pretty darn boring after you've played it more than twice.
Conversely, like I said, I've played the Dropzone Commander starter game over a dozen times now and I still haven't 'cracked' it.
X-Wing has an interesting one. Yeah, sure, the starter set is pretty dull like Armada. But then, it's been on sale for £18 in the last week. So, eh...
Another big thing that I like is being able to incrementally expand it. X-Wing is great at this. Dropzone Commander is brilliant too.
Armada, 40k... Not so much.
Armada, it's just not right to play it at anything less than 300 points that isn't the starter game.
40k, well, any game at less than 1500pts I've ever played has been an unbalanced, awful mess. Well, 40k is an unbalanced awful mess in general, but at least you're not stuck with the case of. "It is physically impossible for me to do anything against that unit."
X-Wing has the great thing of, as long as the purchases are roughly even, you'll be able to put a playable game together. This is because each ship comes with 4-6 different pilots at a range of points levels so you can at least get a game in. Plus, the tournament standard of 100 points isn't a huge leap away.
Dropzone Commander has the same sort of thing. "Ok, so. I have my starter set UCM and Scourge. Next step, Commander buying time." You can then play the starter game again with a commander, plus maybe a Scout unit. (I recommend Scourge Desolator VS Kodiak + AA Wolverines).
From there, it's a simple case of, "ok, couple more units, lets go up to 999 points skirmish."
You then have a perfectly good skirmish game on a slightly larger board, where it introduces more elements to the play.
Then you go up to a 1250 point "Clash" game. Where the game gives you access to aircraft. And, once more, it's only a couple more units to buy.
Then you're at 1500 points "Clash" with a couple more units and are at a tournament level. You can then progress to a 1999pt "Clash" where you're getting into large armies now, before going onto the 2000pt+ "Battle" level insanity.
It's a nice, stepped process that eases you into the game.
Of course, then there's the other method, for like Dreadball, Deadzone V1 and Star Wars: Imperial Assault.
Pretty much all the things you need for a normal game in a giant huge (probably expensive) box. Anything further than that is pretty much a case of increasing variation. - EG new teams, new options, alternative missions / abilities in IA's case (plus models replacing counters, naturally).
What makes a good starter set? Price compared to what you get in terms of coming close to the complete game.
Infinity's OIS comes the closest to giving you everything you need with minimal additions.
Second would be the Warmachine/Hordes box.
The problem with Dark Vengeance is that they're hard to expand on due to the models being poor on the table. Instead of generic marines that anyone could use, they have Dark Angels, a sub faction, really. That limits its usability for people that don't like Dark Angels. Also, you'll need an awful lot to get up to a 1800 pt army. So, in terms of "coming close to the complete game" DV probably is the furthest away.
The problem with AOS is expanding. Without any kind of balance, newbies won't know how to expand while staying balanced against each other. Also, the price of models outside the starter set.
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As much as I love Dark Vengeance, I would have to give this to DZC or Halo Fleet Battles. Those both seem like they give a lot of miniatures, a lot of gaming materials, and have decent prices at discount. The Robogear starter beats everything else on price, but the minis are not exactly boutique quality... The fluff is decent, though.
I really dislike most of the 'Age of Sigmar' models and there's simply nothing about it that I find interesting.
'Infinity' seems to be a hell of a deal and I do like a lot of their models (even though they're unfortunately heavy on the cheesecake, at times.)
Right now I'm leaning toward picking up 'Dropzone Commander,' 'Malifaux' (although, again, the cheesecake is offputting), and 'Infinity' for f/sf stuff and 'Bolt Action' to get my WW2 fix.
MWHistorian wrote: What makes a good starter set? Price compared to what you get in terms of coming close to the complete game.
Infinity's OIS comes the closest to giving you everything you need with minimal additions.
Second would be the Warmachine/Hordes box.
I'd put Malifaux above the Warmachine battlebox.
While it's only 8 models, it's got two complete henchmen led crews of comparable points, two fate decks to get around that quirk, and even two measure tapes. While only 8 models sounds really small, it's not very expensive, being only a bit more than a standard 7-8 model starter crew, but netting the same amount of models, plus rulebook, decks and measure tapes.
The only reason I put Icestorm over it is because it has terrain, which was very thoughtful for such a terrain dependant game.
I find the 2 player starter box somewhat redundant and restrictive when there's a lot of faction choice. I'd much rather go for something where you can buy a rule book and 2 starter boxes for the factions you chose, which gives you the variety and balance, and is quite often still a pretty decent deal.
Sure, it'll cost a bit more than a 2-player box but it usually lands you the full rules and 2 factions you actually want without having to make do.
Games I've done this for:
Judge Dredd (Warlord/Mongoose)
Malifaux (Wyrd)
Bolt Action (Warlord)
Hail Caesar (Warlord)
Empire Of The Dead (Westwind)
In the 2-player box space, the Flames Of War box is a pretty good deal and gives you 2 pretty good core armies.
MWHistorian wrote:
The problem with Dark Vengeance is that they're hard to expand on due to the models being poor on the table. Instead of generic marines that anyone could use, they have Dark Angels, a sub faction, really. That limits its usability for people that don't like Dark Angels. Also, you'll need an awful lot to get up to a 1800 pt army. So, in terms of "coming close to the complete game" DV probably is the furthest away.
The Dark Angels don't have to be played as Dark Angels. Also, counting all three HQs, the DV Dark Angels army comes to almost 1,000 points, so you would just need another DV box to get 1,800 (weird arbitrary number, isn't it?) Points.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:As much as I love Dark Vengeance, I would have to give this to DZC or Halo Fleet Battles. Those both seem like they give a lot of miniatures, a lot of gaming materials, and have decent prices at discount. The Robogear starter beats everything else on price, but the minis are not exactly boutique quality... The fluff is decent, though.
What happens when I show up to open gaming night at my FLGS, and no one is playing DZC or Halo Fleet Battles? Do I now have to teach someone else to play?
As has been mentioned, the thread title was pretty unspecific as to what constitutes a "best two player starter set." My criteria was beautiful miniatures for two opposing factions, rules to play the game, and a high likelihood of actually finding other players. Your may differ
What happens when I show up to open gaming night at my FLGS, and no one is playing DZC or Halo Fleet Battles? Do I now have to teach someone else to play?
Seeing as how game populations don't spawn overnight when a game is released, yes, you generally need to show and teach people who are potentially interested in a game if you want it to gain popularity in a group.
Isn't that half the purpose of a two player starter set? Yes, some people buy them and split them, but they're also the tool you want to use to demo games you want to show others. You literally have the models (and hopefully the rules and other accessories) to put on a game for you and an opponent.
Herzlos wrote: I find the 2 player starter box somewhat redundant and restrictive when there's a lot of faction choice. I'd much rather go for something where you can buy a rule book and 2 starter boxes for the factions you chose, which gives you the variety and balance, and is quite often still a pretty decent deal.
That's something to think about, actually.
What's better - a two player starter set with a limited faction choice, or multiple, cheaper, single player starter sets for each "main" faction in a game?
I thought, at first, that Guild Ball could benefit from a two-player starter set, but I've come around to the 3-model starter sets that each give a pretty good feel for the different factions in the game.
The same goes for DZC - the starter set is great (with the inclusion of the rules and plenty of terrain) but somewhat worthless if the factions I want to play are Shaltari, PHR, or the Resistance.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/08 14:47:19
thinking about it, I forgot the Pike n Shotte box(e). That's a very good starter set as well. Don't own the HC one, but I expect its along similar lines.
What happens when I show up to open gaming night at my FLGS, and no one is playing DZC or Halo Fleet Battles? Do I now have to teach someone else to play?
Seeing as how game populations don't spawn overnight when a game is released, yes, you generally need to show and teach people who are potentially interested in a game if you want it to gain popularity in a group.
Isn't that half the purpose of a two player starter set? Yes, some people buy them and split them, but they're also the tool you want to use to demo games you want to show others. You literally have the models (and hopefully the rules and other accessories) to put on a game for you and an opponent.
We can debate the demographics of who is purchasing these boxed sets, but when I think of people purchasing starter sets, I think of someone who doesn't know how to play the game. Maybe someone who is a little younger and/or not familiar with tabletop gaming. They're now expected to run demo games?
I think the draw of the two person starter set is either you have a choice of forces you can play with, or you have a friend who wants one force or the other. Going into a game cold, learning all the rules, putting together and painting everything, dragging it to an FLGS, and then run a demo for strangers seems like a huge commitment.
We can debate the demographics of who is purchasing these boxed sets, but when I think of people purchasing starter sets, I think of someone who doesn't know how to play the game.
Right, I'm with you up to there.
Maybe someone who is a little younger and/or not familiar with tabletop gaming. They're now expected to run demo games?
But that's where I disagree. Unless you're saying that all the people picking up, say the new Gates of Antares starter set are younger and not as familiar with tabletop gaming?
I think the draw of the two person starter set is either you have a choice of forces you can play with, or you have a friend who wants one force or the other. Going into a game cold, learning all the rules, putting together and painting everything, dragging it to an FLGS, and then run a demo for strangers seems like a huge commitment.
Why do the demos have to be for strangers? Can't I go up to my friends at the club or FLGS and say, "Guys, I'm interested in this game. Who wants to try it out with me?"
And I can't imagine it takes much more effort than going into a game cold, learning all the rules, putting together and painting your force, dragging it to the FLGS and then playing a game with a friend (or a stranger).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/08 18:01:47
Might as well add Magic the Gathering, since it is represented here on dakka. You can get the new Duel Deck (Zendikar versus Eldrazi) for ~£15, and that's a great game for two players, we already played it so much the sleeves wore out. The latest Battle for Zendikar cycle is also pretty interesting too. Lots of titanic monsters and epic scenery. Probably the most game you can get for your buck.
I think there is also a miniature board game... Something to do with plainswalkers. I haven't played it yet though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/08 18:38:31
I'm putting in another recommendation for the Malifaux starter. For it's price (I scored one for 50% off, so it was an even more amazing deal), you get 2 starter crews that work really well, 2 tape measures, a very solid guide that walks you through how to play by scaling up from 2-3-4 models each (new models have more mechanics), a digital copy of the rules manual (which has all of the rules for Malifaux), and 2 Fate Decks to play (that have great art).
Don't want to play the factions in the starter? All of the models are mercenaries and can fit into any crew.
The models alone would be worth $60 and they're great sculpts (except the Scion, but he's easy to convert) that lack Wyrd's usually fiddly bits. The decks are another $20 and the rulebook PDF is $8. Plus the nice guide and tape measures make it an even better deal.
The same goes for DZC - the starter set is great (with the inclusion of the rules and plenty of terrain) but somewhat worthless if the factions I want to play are Shaltari, PHR, or the Resistance.
DZC does have all the components available separately at least. But yeah, there is the 'not starter set' markup. - But that's a thing to remember, most starter sets are loss leaders. Or, at least, very nearly Loss Leaders.
With Dropzone at least, say, lets say you already have a mate that has the starter set game. You, yourself could buy the rulebook for £12. Then buy your [url=http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/phr/19488-phr-plastic-starter-set]PHR Starter Army for £31.50 and you could insert that completely happily in your mates starter games. Additionally, you could buy the Ruinscape scenery set for £27.00. - Which gives you enough tiles for a 8' by 4' table, with 20 buildings (10 buildings and a 3' by 4' tile is in the starter set).
So, you could make up your own completely custom set for £102 (albeit with 50% more terrain), or just go for the starter set for £48 and your own additional army for £31.50. - You'd still have a bit of a terrain problem for when you go for bigger games though. So, swings and roundabouts.
The_ArmyMan wrote:Going into a game cold, learning all the rules, putting together and painting everything, dragging it to an FLGS, and then run a demo for strangers seems like a huge commitment.
Well, with any starter set, you'd have to put things together and paint it yourself. And is there that much difference between running a demo for strangers and playing a game of anything with strangers? Who, especially in such a rulesystem as 40k has a multitude of house rules, differing interpretations of rules and all sorts of chaos when going from place to place.
As for going into a game cold and learning all the rules. Fortunately, the internet exists.
And yes, that was Wesley Crusher playing against Mass Effect's Joker in a Star Wars game...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/08 18:19:40
A bit of twist is Zombicide, It was good fun and you could paint it up if you want.
I personally enjoy Star Wars: Armada.
It has become something of a beast for me as soon as you buy fighter packs.
I would say for a game out of the box and for good value just buy 2 starter packs of X-wing and you would be happy.
2 X-wings and 3 upgraded Tie-fighters always felt a little more even to me.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote:As much as I love Dark Vengeance, I would have to give this to DZC or Halo Fleet Battles. Those both seem like they give a lot of miniatures, a lot of gaming materials, and have decent prices at discount. The Robogear starter beats everything else on price, but the minis are not exactly boutique quality... The fluff is decent, though.
What happens when I show up to open gaming night at my FLGS, and no one is playing DZC or Halo Fleet Battles? Do I now have to teach someone else to play?
In a word, yes.
Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to play a game you actually enjoy. Setting up both armies and then explaining the rules, perhaps slogging through an entire demo game with cards face up, is a burden that needs great shoulders to carry. However, worry not for your altruism and dedication will be rewarded. If I might share an anecdote, this one time I wanted to get in a game of Battlefleet Gothic, but the people at the first FLGS were uninterested in spaceships and unwilling to leard. Also, their elbows were locked and they had to feed themselves by dribbling their gruel down their arms and licking it off their shoulders. The second FLGS was more receptive to the game. Not only would they talk and make eye contact with an outsider, but they were happy despite their locked elbows because they would turn and feed each other the gruel and kindness. So then I went back to the first games store and tried teaching them BFG again, as well as trying to feed the man next to me with kindness, but then they straight-armed me between the clavicles and called the cops. The moral of the story is to stay home and game with friends so you only have to teach them how to play once and don't lock your elbows.
TL/DR: Be the game you want to see, or don't and buy more 40k because it's easy.
As has been mentioned, the thread title was pretty unspecific as to what constitutes a "best two player starter set." My criteria was beautiful miniatures for two opposing factions, rules to play the game, and a high likelihood of actually finding other players. Your may differ
I like most of your criteria, but I've always been a friend-gamer and probably always will be. Sure, I'll occasionally sneak out for a gamey call, but it's usually more awkward than enjoyable and in the end I appreciate what I have at home all the more.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_Armyman wrote: Going into a game cold, learning all the rules, putting together and painting everything, dragging it to an FLGS, and then run a demo for strangers seems like a huge commitment.
Uh, that's been the standard way of doing things for the majority of recorded human history since the invention of boxed board games. There are literally decades of tradition behind the concept of the whole family struggling to understand the g-ddamn rules to this fething waste of time Fantasy Flight Game all Christmas morning.
You may have a point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/08 19:11:56
No one has mentioned Flames of War box? I felt like I REALLY got my money's worth with that one. Comes with so much in the box, it is literally everything you need including "terrain" and dice.
Zygrot24 wrote: No one has mentioned Flames of War box? I felt like I REALLY got my money's worth with that one. Comes with so much in the box, it is literally everything you need including "terrain" and dice.
They fixed the vehicles, right?
Because feth me, I got the first version of those vehicles, and they went together terribly. My plastic StuGs look like they need to use the bathroom.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/08 20:05:40
What happens when I show up to open gaming night at my FLGS, and no one is playing DZC or Halo Fleet Battles? Do I now have to teach someone else to play?
Isn't that the usual way you introduce a friend to a game you like but they don't know about?
If you are into a game in an area it's not being played, simply suggest it to the group you woild usually play with.
Otherwise game stores would only ever see one or two games played, where enough players just happen to be interested in the same game and somehow get lucky enough to go to a place everyone else does, too. There would never be anything introduced unless two or more players all have the same gestalt sudden interest seperate from each other and show up at the same night, and go "ohh, you too?".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/09 02:41:03
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
What happens when I show up to open gaming night at my FLGS, and no one is playing DZC or Halo Fleet Battles? Do I now have to teach someone else to play?
Isn't that the usual way you introduce a friend to a game you like but they don't know about?
If we're approaching this from the perspective of a new player, doesn't the possibility exist that I choose a starter set for a game that a community already exists for? Why would I choose a starter set that not only forced me to learn a brand new game, but also expected me to create a club or community with which to use my new, spangly minis? Have you seen the average gamer? Basic conversational skills are not a strong point
I'm not saying that DZC or Infinity or Pikke and Shot aren't great games. But I do see a value in picking a starter set where you're guaranteed to get a game in once you feel your army is ready to hit the table.
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