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If someone outflanked, and the side was completely blocked, is the unit destroyed? Do they go into reserves until they can get the other side? I know tanks can tank shock thru but what if you have none?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/280663.page


Moved to YMDC

You mean the 'kroot defense'?
I believe that the unit is destroyed.

Thats what I thought too, but there is nothing in the book that says either way

 Orock wrote:
Thats what I thought too, but there is nothing in the book that says either way

Then the game halts and you either can not continue, or you have to house rule it.

This was recently discussed to death in another thread here.

Indeed, there is only one current answer - you have no permission to ignore the requirement to move the models on, so the game cannot continue until this move is completed.

Jeffersonian may claim otherwise, by citing rules talking about units in reserve being destroyed at the end of the game, however this does not provide permission to move past this point, and never can do.

If possible, try to have a Tank vehicle in reserves to Tank Shock those near your board edge - it'll force them to move away and liberate some space to your units. If the Tank has Outflank, it'll be even better (as you'll be able to tank shock them where you want to bring in the other reserves).

Of course, if the tank shocked unit is able to destroy your vehicle... but it's better than paralyzing the game

From that image: did you not have any units on the table?

If any game turn ends with you not having units on the table, then you lose.

I also wonder how all of your outflanking units that were coming in that turn were all coming in from the same side(and it seems like all of your units were coming in at once), and how the tau player knew/managed to cover the exact board-edge that you were outflanking on from(as opposed to the other edge)

There is just too much of an incredibly specific set of circumstances shown here for the situation to ever actually come up(in the pictured scenario).

As far as using the picture for a scenario where the enemy models have managed to line up on a given edge and at least 1 unit is to come in from that edge: as said we have no official rules, but HIWPI: the unit(s) is/are lost. For the enemy models to have been allowed to position themselves in this manner you have already lost the tactical aspect of the game, you deserve to lose those units(or even the game). Take it as a learning experience.

As has been said, the authors provided no guidance for a situation like this. You'll need to discuss with opponent what to do if this comes up in a real game situation.

The most common house rules I've seen are as follows.

#1 - The unit is destroyed.

#2 - The unit goes into ongoing reserves and gets the chance to try to come on again next turn, assuming the player can somehow break open a line in the blockade.

#3 - The unit comes on, but from a different board edge as selected by the blocking character. This is based, in spirit, on what can happen during a deep strike mishap.

I would be inclined to play using option #3 as this seems the most fair thing to do. The authors didn't include any direction to either destroy units or keep them in 'perpetual reserves'. The authors clearly intended for outflanking units to come onto the table when their time came. Option #3 allows this to happen, although at a disadvantage since the intended table edge is blocked.

looking at the pic, the bikes are all gone, but there are skimmers and flyers? I think they would be able to come on by moving over the enemy models?

Also, when you outflank you roll a dice for which side you are going to come in from. your opponent would have to be extremely unlucky to roll the same side for his\her entire army.

and any player that goes for the null deployment and doesn't know of the kroot defense ( http://imgur.com/gallery/V0gND ) is just begging for it. . .

Null deployment is auto-lose unless you have a rule like drop pod assault or similar.

Without a rule for first turn reserves null deploy goes like this: null deployer "ok my first turn... Done" opponent "ok, my first turn... Done. Game turn 1 is over and you have no units on the table. I win."

I should explain the situation better

The bikes and skimmers you see on the blank table edge were not destroyed, thats just where they were set down before rolling for outflank.

I was the tau player, my opponent was playing ravenwing heavy with lots of bikers, a flyer, 2 land speeder variants and a white scars librarius conclave on bikes to grant skilled rider to 3 squads and better jink, since aparently this crap can stack because dark angels "dont have chapter tactics" for what boils down to a 2+ rerollable jink.

I got first turn, and knowing he got to all come in turn 2 with whatever he was outflanking on set up on the firthest 1/3 of my board edge completely, minus the infiltrators.

He then chose to only deploy one unit of bikes, combat squadded, and an attack bike, hidden on the other side of the board.

I then set up my stealth suits at the farthest corner of the board edge i was on spaced to at least deny one side of the outflank. I scouted the pathfinders up closer to the stealth suits then on my turn moved them up farther and also ran. I had fire warriors in my deployment zone finish off covering the whole board side.

This took 2 turns in all and like someone said with a single rhino could have easily been broken. We played it like if you were forced to come on that side you were destroyed. Fortunatley for my opponent only one bike squad came in on the denied flank, so it was still a game. But that FEELS like how it should play. If you are outflanking 1700 points of your army, and leave a side completely undefended you should prepare for this kind of thing.

Whoever says "the game should just not go on" is clearly chewing sour grapes. If you make that choice you should live with the concequences, not make up some situation where clearly the laws of the universe have been broken so everything is in perpetual pause forever and the game simply cannot continue. Your units are destroyed. Next time bring something to prevent that. Heck if he had deployed even a single attack bike within 12 inches of that side I wouldnt have been able to set up infiltrators there, and it would have been impossible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
This was recently discussed to death in another thread here.

some people dont read every thread ever made. If you felt it necessary to tell someone "your making a redundant thread" you could instead link the thread that cites this potentially useful information. This just comes off as "lurk moar".

@orock

first "the game should just not go on" is really just code for the most important rule/the spirit of the game.

second, the forums have a search feature

lastly, the rule is you must move onto the table. just destroying the unit has no rules support.

 Orock wrote:


Whoever says "the game should just not go on" is clearly chewing sour grapes.

The rules actually say this. Since it does not give rules to handle the situation, and you must bring your reserves onto the table and there is no way to do this. RAW the game stops.

If you make that choice you should live with the concequences,

And you do, since the consequences are that the game can not continue unless you make a house rule.

not make up some situation where clearly the laws of the universe have been broken so everything is in perpetual pause forever and the game simply cannot continue.

Which Universe?

The whole game is not realistic.

What would make sense in the real world has no bearing on the 40k ruleset

Real World Common Sense/Real World Logic/How it works in the real world has no bearing on the 40k Ruleset.

Remember: The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now. (and maybe not even on a planet with the same physical makeup as our earth, and probably different physics as well).

Your units are destroyed.

False. The rules do not actually state this.

Next time bring something to prevent that.

Why? the rules do not cover the situation. no reason to bring something to prevent it. it is not like the units are automatically destroyed.

Heck if he had deployed even a single attack bike within 12 inches of that side I wouldn[']t have been able to set up infiltrators there, and it would have been impossible.

True, but what does it matter, it is not like the units are automatically destroyed if they can not come on from that particular edge when they outflank.

+1 the units are not destroyed and must come on but cannot move within 1" of an enemy model, so house rules are required.

It sounds to me like OP is chewing sour grapes at being told it's not an auto-destroyed for those units, and should himself live with the consequences of contributing to the roles conundrum occurring just as much as his opponent.

If you cannot be placed you are destroyed. If your drop pod lands in the center of impassable terrain, and your guys cant get out, they die. If it lands in the center of 40 orks with juuust enough room for the pod, they try to get out and are destroyed. If a rhino is surrounded by demons and is wrecked, the marines cannot get out without being 1 inch away from the demons, they are also destroyed.

There is precident here. In the old editions if you couldnt come on from the board you lost the game. If I choose to move my units to completely cover a side outflank would come from, and have the time and ability, and it keeps me from getting sandwiched between a gimmick army designed to take advantage of exactly that, have a 2+ rerollable cover save, then tie up your whole army turn 3 with mabye 2 casualties from shooting, that does not mean I am contributing to the corruption of the game. It means I am using tactics to avoid that. If you personally dont like it thats fine, but all I have seen from the nay sayers is "there is nothing that tells us" when since they cannot be placed on the board because it would mean coming into contact with the enemy, it seems to me the destroyed result has the only precident in the game.

And yes, refusing to let the game go on because your looking for a loophole now that a flank has been denied is sour grapes.

 Orock wrote:
since aparently this crap can stack because dark angels "dont have chapter tactics" for what boils down to a 2+ rerollable jink.

But this is true - Chapter Tactics is a Space Marines rule, not in other Marine codexes.

Drop pods cannot come down in impassable terrain. It will mishap and either be placed somewhere else by your opponent, go into ongoing reserves, or get destroyed.

The pod does not still get placed into the impassable and the unit die; that is just making things up.

That is all, of course, assuming the sm player was stupid enough to try and drop the pod on impassable to begin with; if it scattered onto the impassable it reduces the scatter until it is not on the impassable.

RAW the game breaks as it does for many weird rules interactions

way IWPI, they go into on going reserves.

As an aside doing this in a game is being an ass, it feels more gaming to win than telling a story about a battle and that's lame

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Drop pods cannot come down in impassable terrain. It will mishap and either be placed somewhere else by your opponent, go into ongoing reserves, or get destroyed.

The pod does not still get placed into the impassable and the unit die; that is just making things up.

That is all, of course, assuming the sm player was stupid enough to try and drop the pod on impassable to begin with; if it scattered onto the impassable it reduces the scatter until it is not on the impassable.

You misunderstand. I mean if it comes down in a clear spot, but basically that was the only clear spot, just enough room for a drop pod. But the rest of the terrain around is impassable. Unlikely, but not impossible. And the other points stand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
RAW the game breaks as it does for many weird rules interactions

way IWPI, they go into on going reserves.

As an aside doing this in a game is being an ass, it feels more gaming to win than telling a story about a battle and that's lame

Well your entitled to your opinion, same as me. Your ruling has no precident however. If you deep strike and mishap you can go into reserves. The difference being you had to be let on the board in the first place. If they outflank from a side where they cannot physically be placed they should be destroyed. And I would hardly call denied flank an ass move. You can forge the narrative you want all you want with your friends. Those of us actually interested in a game and not making up a fluffy story where nobody loses however would like to discuss a resolution in case it DOES come up in a tournament.

Fine, what page of the rule book specifically says what happens to a unit that is outflanking, but can't come onto the board is destroyed.

The reason that Dark Angels benefit from a white scar model in the unit is because white scars have skilled rider. If one model in the unit has skilled rider, the whole unit gets the ability. Darkshrouds give stealth to Dark Angel units among other buffs and so you take a jink 4++ and skilled rider 3++ then add stealth 2++, then if it's a ravenwing model being hit and it's jinking it may reroll failed jink saves per the Ravenwing special rule.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Orock wrote:
since aparently this crap can stack because dark angels "dont have chapter tactics" for what boils down to a 2+ rerollable jink.

But this is true - Chapter Tactics is a Space Marines rule, not in other Marine codexes.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Fine, what page of the rule book specifically says what happens to a unit that is outflanking, but can't come onto the board is destroyed.

Actually the only time anything is stated regarding the inability to Arrive From Reserves is when dealing with Deep Striike. Outflank is treated the same as if you came on board from your Deployment Edge, and nothing is actually stated regarding it. At that point, ANY decision is a House Rule, be it counting the unit as destroyed, going back in to Reserves, or whatever.

At best there is:

If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

But even that violates movement rules.

And I'm fine with admitting that my choice of rules is making things up, but I want people to acknowledge that destroying units is also a fiction

Just use the deeps trike mishap table because reasons.

Well I found two things that contradict each other.

The first thing is a units special rules being ignored if they interfere with coming on the board. (page 94) This seems to say that if a special rule would interfere with a unit coming on the board (in this case a blocked outflank side) then you ignore the rule for the purposes of coming on the board. Since they are in reserve, and just failed to come on, it would apear they go back into normal reserves and can come on from their board edge next turn.

The other is a white dwarf from a bit ago that shows this happening, and the unit of space wolf scouts trying it destroyed. But how often does white dwarf get things wrong.

I am inclined to go with the first option, since there will never ever be a faq on this or anything handy again it seems. But I guess it will be up to whoever is judging in tournament situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

icefire78 wrote:
The reason that Dark Angels benefit from a white scar model in the unit is because white scars have skilled rider. If one model in the unit has skilled rider, the whole unit gets the ability. Darkshrouds give stealth to Dark Angel units among other buffs and so you take a jink 4++ and skilled rider 3++ then add stealth 2++, then if it's a ravenwing model being hit and it's jinking it may reroll failed jink saves per the Ravenwing special rule.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Orock wrote:
since aparently this crap can stack because dark angels "dont have chapter tactics" for what boils down to a 2+ rerollable jink.

But this is true - Chapter Tactics is a Space Marines rule, not in other Marine codexes.

I wasent argueing it dosent work. I was argueing the game needs another essentially 2+ rerollable save like I need another hole in the head.

 Orock wrote:
Well I found two things that contradict each other.

The first thing is a units special rules being ignored if they interfere with coming on the board. (page 94) This seems to say that if a special rule would interfere with a unit coming on the board (in this case a blocked outflank side) then you ignore the rule for the purposes of coming on the board. Since they are in reserve, and just failed to come on, it would appear they go back into normal reserves and can come on from their board edge next turn.

Could you provide more of a reference on this? Not everyone has ready access to the paper-bound book, so page numbers mean little.

 Orock wrote:
The other is a white dwarf from a bit ago that shows this happening, and the unit of space wolf scouts trying it destroyed. But how often does white dwarf get things wrong.

White Dwarf sucks. Half the time their battle reports are replete with errors, and not just ones that lead to pages of YMDC threads.

Charistoph wrote:Could you provide more of a reference on this? Not everyone has ready access to the paper-bound book, so page numbers mean little.

Page 94 of my hard copy is the rules for Super-Heavy Vehicles.

Orock wrote:If you cannot be placed you are destroyed. If your drop pod lands in the center of impassable terrain, and your guys cant get out, they die. If it lands in the center of 40 orks with juuust enough room for the pod, they try to get out and are destroyed. If a rhino is surrounded by demons and is wrecked, the marines cannot get out without being 1 inch away from the demons, they are also destroyed.

Cool. Now show me where disembarking from a Transport is the same as 'Moving On From Reserve'.

Ah. You can't. Because it's not.

There is precident here. In the old editions if you couldnt come on from the board you lost the game.

It's 7th edition now, though, and the rules now say nothing of the sort. I may be wrong but I think they haven't for some time, either.

If I choose to move my units to completely cover a side outflank would come from, and have the time and ability, and it keeps me from getting sandwiched between a gimmick army designed to take advantage of exactly that, have a 2+ rerollable cover save, then tie up your whole army turn 3 with mabye 2 casualties from shooting, that does not mean I am contributing to the corruption of the game. It means I am using tactics to avoid that. If you personally dont like it thats fine, but all I have seen from the nay sayers is "there is nothing that tells us" when since they cannot be placed on the board because it would mean coming into contact with the enemy, it seems to me the destroyed result has the only precident in the game.

You're trying to argue rules based on some concept of fairness? Regardless, I was meaning you contributed to this situation occurring. You're eager to blame your opponent for trying to Outflank but in blocking the board edge you are equally responsible for the rules suddenly not working.

The problem you seem to have is coming to the rules discussion forum with a predetermined right way and wanting confirmation. This isn't a circle jerk, I'm afraid. We're simply telling you the rules make no allowance for what you're claiming.

And yes, refusing to let the game go on because your looking for a loophole now that a flank has been denied is sour grapes.

No one's suggesting that. Everyone is suggesting you simply need to come up with house rules, which should be agreed by both players.

What I think you should do personally is come up with an agreement that seems fair to both of you, and if you're unable to then have someone impartial decide or roll a D6.

Orock wrote:Well I found two things that contradict each other.

The first thing is a units special rules being ignored if they interfere with coming on the board. (page 94) This seems to say that if a special rule would interfere with a unit coming on the board (in this case a blocked outflank side) then you ignore the rule for the purposes of coming on the board. Since they are in reserve, and just failed to come on, it would apear they go back into normal reserves and can come on from their board edge next turn.

Blocking the board edge isn't a special rule, though. It seems to me though to be a possible way of dealing with the situation by house rule.

In this case, I am saying that the special rule outflank is preventing you from coming on the board, because the board is physically blocked. The rule says ignore special rules to make coming on the board accessable. Since they are in reserve, and if you ignore outflank, logically they would come in on your board edge.