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@Bottle - Yea! The Fyre Slayers are a perfect example. I would not (ever) build an army of fantasy dwarves, but adding these guys to my 'good guy army' and just being able to play them in a game makes me happy.

I don't think that makes me a 'collector' (at least as far as Fanrasy goes) by any stretch: More like a model enthusiast who likes to game with those models. It particularly works in the Warhamner Fantasy setting because there are many neat models I like spread out across so many factions.

Frankly, if WMH had a better way to just mix whatever models I like into an army, I'd play it more, because I paint random models that just appeal to me, but they're the furthest thing from a playable army, and painting models hat don't appeal to me just feels like work -- who needs more of that? As it turns out, I like warcaster models, but it's not like you can play 30 warcasters

 jorny wrote:


The thing is that it seems to me that this is indicative of a larger trend in miniatures gaming. Reading blogs, forums and facebook groups there seems to be a trend that more and more people are moving towards a freer attitude where you play with the models and rules you like (which of course is nothing new really) and are less stuck in the one company, one ruleset, one miniature line, one paint line attitude (again, nothing new really). This shift has been going on for a while of course aided by the internet and GW's handling of it's games, but it seems to me that AoS has been somewhat of a catalyst, opening up the eyes of even some of the diehard WHFB loyalists.

What do you think? Is there a paradigm shift in miniaures miniatures gaming on the way? Write 500 words and hand in by monday.

I don't think there's a major paradigm shift, but there is a small and growing group of "indie" gamers (for lack of a better term) and they are getting more and more attention from companies. The untying of rules, miniatures and even fluff from each other is growing.

There have always been rules without minis and minis without rules. The historical gaming world has almost NEVER tried to tie up the two under one company (FoW is the big exception). The same has been true in the fantasy and sci-fi world, but to a much lesser extent. I've been gaming this way for quite a few years and it's been quite nice to see the development. There are far more companies making Sci/Fantasy rules and miniatures that are not tied to each other and the quality is going up.

Whereas we most indie rulesets formerly had to be sourced via PDF or from very small publishing houses, now Osprey publishes a whole range of nicely done full-color rulesets not tied to a particular set of miniatures. The big companies are picking up on this too. KoW has always been accepting of other companies miniatures and now they have a rulebook of armies specifically designed to draw in owners of WHFB armies.

All this to say, while it's not necessarily a "movement", it's never been a better time to be an independent wargamer.

Flames of War only achieved the rules/figures tie-up because of two factors:

1. They made their figures 15mm, which was incompatible with the 20mm/1:72 scale that other WW2 skirmish rules tended to use.

2. By making the rules fairly similar to 40K, they were able to get GW players into the FoW orbit, and a lot of these people were already used to the idea that rules, figures and fluff have to all come from one company.

However, FoW did not manage to maintain its monopoy of 15mm WW2 models and eventually were forced by players to admit non-Battlefront models to official competitions. These days there are several companies making 15mm figures and tanks.

15mm isn't a proprietary Flames of War scale like GW "heroic 28mm". At the time Flames of War was released, there were several 15mm WW2 minis producers, primarily ancient lead casters now working in lead-free white metal. I know, because I bought some.

What Battlefront did was to repackage WW2 with really high production values and far better resin models compared to the generic white metal out there. More importantly, they based the game off 40k, which was, itself, dramatically streamlined from the ancient WW2 rules sets currently out there.

As first mover in "modern-style" WW2 wargaming, Flames managed to capture basically all of the mindshare, as it plays well enough without the issues of traditional WW2 wargaming.

Where Flames now falls short is in the shift to modern plastic which captures scale models with the same quantum improvement in accuracy than resin had over white metal.

I'm actually a bit shocked that Battefront hasn't launched a KS to relaunch a new edition with a wider plastic range.

Also, 1/72 is more of a modeling scale than a gaming scale. When your tabletop is only 4' deep, and you start only 2' apart, that's less than 150' separation? Recall that a PzIV can effectively take out a Sherman at ranges of 800m (2,400 ft), and 1/72 tabletop scale doesn't look right at all.

1/100 isn't that much better, but if you can bump engagement ranges to 400' or more, the game starts to look a bit more reasonable.

Kilkrazy wrote:Flames of War only achieved the rules/figures tie-up because of two factors:

1. They made their figures 15mm, which was incompatible with the 20mm/1:72 scale that other WW2 skirmish rules tended to use.

2. By making the rules fairly similar to 40K, they were able to get GW players into the FoW orbit, and a lot of these people were already used to the idea that rules, figures and fluff have to all come from one company.

However, FoW did not manage to maintain its monopoy of 15mm WW2 models and eventually were forced by players to admit non-Battlefront models to official competitions. These days there are several companies making 15mm figures and tanks.

I would add that they achieved it largely because they offered the entire package (rules, minis, continued expansions, online support, etc) in an easy-to-merchandise system. When released, they were really the only polished all-in-one historical system that a small FLGS could stock and expect customers to buy and keep buying.

JohnHwangDD wrote:15mm isn't a proprietary Flames of War scale like GW "heroic 28mm". At the time Flames of War was released, there were several 15mm WW2 minis producers, primarily ancient lead casters now working in lead-free white metal. I know, because I bought some...

...Also, 1/72 is more of a modeling scale than a gaming scale. When your tabletop is only 4' deep, and you start only 2' apart, that's less than 150' separation? Recall that a PzIV can effectively take out a Sherman at ranges of 800m (2,400 ft), and 1/72 tabletop scale doesn't look right at all.

1/100 isn't that much better, but if you can bump engagement ranges to 400' or more, the game starts to look a bit more reasonable.

15mm wasn't proprietary, but it always seemed to me to be a very shrewd and deliberate move to use one of the least common of the smaller scales (far less common than 6mm or 20mm) for their scale. There were a few others, but right from the gate, they had comparatively little competition and plenty of time to build their image as THE provider of 15mm/1:100 ww2 stuff.

It reminds me alot of what DZC did. Battletech and others had built up 6mm sci-fi for many years, and there was a fast growing cadre of indie 15mm sci-fi makers so DZC went with 10mm. Can't tell me that wasn't part of the calculation.

As for gaming scale, compressed ground is nothing new in wargaming. It might be "off" to some folks, but I think that 20/15/10/6/etc mm all look fine on the table depending on the scope of battle and degree of compression. It's not my preferred scale, but I think 20mm is an excellent compromise scale for those who want some of the detail of 25/28, a slightly more compressed size and to be able to take advantage of the wealth of scale models and terrain that are available in 20mm and similar scales.

Oh, I agree that BZ did a good job with selecting 15mm as the game scale, so that it looks semi-reasonable on the tabletop. And make no mistake, when FoW launched, it was beautiful.

Picking 10mm for DZC also works for the scale of the minis and game.

I get that a lot of games mismatch ground scale vs model scale, and understand the issue between 6mm ground scale vs 20+mm model scale. To me, 1/72 starts feeling like playing with 50mm 1/35 scale armor, where stuff gets blown up way too close.

Personally, I like 1/144 best when any sort of armor is involved.

1/144, 1/160, N, etc. is my favorite small scale as well, though my ground combat is all sci-fi. I started with it by accident when the club settled on rebased Mechwarrior CMG units as the cheapest and fastest way to put together armies for playing various sci-fi ground combat games.

However, since them I've really begun to appreciate it's balance of being small enough to put alot on the table while giving you a level of detail far better than 6mm.

It doesn't hurt that the scale has some heavy hitters putting out units for it. CAV, Heavy Gear, DZC and Planetfall.

Yeah. 1/144 gives a sense of distance and maneuver that is completely lacking in 28mm, while any humans are still recognizably such, and armor retains good detail.

 jorny wrote:
Age of Sigmar made it a lot easier for us to shift away from Warhammer 8th edition and disconnect the rules from the setting. Since we already were playing with whatever miniatures we thought were cool and suitable to the army and the old world, the switch was already under way. AoS just gave the final push. Even the more GW loyal in our group said that they felt liberated in a sense.

GW has been alienating loyal fans for decades. In the last few years we've had: the whole finecast debacle (which GW saw as an opportunity to raise prices, despite switching to a cheaper material); the GW legal team and Kirby's waffling preambles, turning bad PR up to 11; Matt Ward's flying land raiders; 40k 6th edition getting scrapped before it was even 2 years old; specialist games scrapped, and not least: continual unpopular price hikes. Since 2010, a tac squad has gone up £7, Codex books are £12 more expensive. Even beer hasn't gone up in price that fast!

So I would say AoS is just the latest in a long line of things that have made fans feel "forced" to look elsewhere (some fans at least). Fantasy Flight and CMON games (Kickstarters etc...) have also been gaining popularity, and giving people an easy way to experience "other miniatures". I think that is also helping to open people's eyes to a world outside GW. I've heard a lot people talk about feeling "liberated", and I can certainly identify with that. It's like getting out of a bad relationship: you look back and wonder what the hell you were thinking.

Fortunately for you, the path out of GW is well trodden now. It's like a multi-lane highway, well lit and well signposted every step of the way.

 jorny wrote:
Since we already were playing with whatever miniatures we thought were cool and suitable to the army and the old world, the switch was already under way. AoS just gave the final push. Even the more GW loyal in our group said that they felt liberated in a sense, the only thing most of us will do it to buy is to try and buy all the warhammer kits we like and don't have before GW discontinues them.

Just a clarification, have you guys been buying non-GW and non-GW-derivative miniatures for your Old World armies? I think that's one of the biggest steps in liberating oneself from a given system. GW has a very specific aesthetic and proportion that differentiates them from other companies. There's nothing wrong with that, but when one begins to enjoy miniatures in different styles a whole world of options opens up.

I was thinking of doing that but I found the AoS rules are so limited for my taste that I didn't want to put the money and effort into making anything specially for the game.

However, I've just bought the Kings of War rulebook.

I'm still thinking of starting some home games of KoW in 15mm scale, but all based like the below pic (not mine) A bit more of a "skirmish" scale to the forces, but when it's the footprint that matters most KoW supports quite a scale range, just by making the footprints proportionally smaller. Each base is a cavalry base, representing a troop (so two for a regiment, and so on).

Also makes most 2000pt armies about $50, with 13-15 stands of minis.

AgeisGrim,
KoW in 15mm is a fine idea. I considered it briefly, but I really love 28mm minis. If you're familiar with a fair number of rulesets, it's pretty clear that KoW is very close to to the level and type of abstraction(s) that you get in smaller scale games like 15mm. It's just been sized up to 28mm.

KillCrazy,
Congrats. Let us know what you think of it when it arrives.

IMO, KoW would actually look best with 10mm (or even 6mm!) minis on flat (non-plinth) bases. Too bad it would be such misery painting them...

@Eilif & DD -- yeah, my biggest issue with smaller scale models is that I've bought them and goofed around with them (including Epic models), and I just don't have nearly as much fun with them as 28mm scale models.

One of the *attractions* of the GW paradigm for me is the desire to cram in models as large sized as possible for the gaming surface being played, which, if you want to have detailed individual human-sized models represented, I think is heroic 28mm. Since I don't plan on ever gaming on something larger than 8x12 (I think it would be impractical, even removing room size constraints), I don't really like models much larger than a Cerastus Knight (reavers and warlords are out, in my book). There is also the transportation aspect, and anything much larger than a wraithknight is just extremely cumbersome to take anywhere.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
IMO, KoW would actually look best with 10mm (or even 6mm!) minis on flat (non-plinth) bases. Too bad it would be such misery painting them...

Baccus 6mm promote a format using 6mm figures on 28mm scale element bases. If you take a standard 60mm wide base, 36 to 48 infantry figures can easily be fitted on to it in three or four ranks.

But I say that 2mm is the way forwards!

0mm is even better, very cheap and takes no time to paint.

That is what I now do for mini games where it is about base size like KOW or historicals. MDF bases (or heavy card if you want). Print out some piccies and stick em on. Top down pictures, nato symbols or photos of the minis that would have been used or whatever.

 Talys wrote:

One of the *attractions* of the GW paradigm for me is the desire to cram in models as large sized as possible for the gaming surface being played, which, if you want to have detailed individual human-sized models represented, I think is heroic 28mm. Since I don't plan on ever gaming on something larger than 8x12 (I think it would be impractical, even removing room size constraints), I don't really like models much larger than a Cerastus Knight (reavers and warlords are out, in my book). There is also the transportation aspect, and anything much larger than a wraithknight is just extremely cumbersome to take anywhere.

When it comes to fantasy and sci-fantasy games I feel the same way. I know it's ridiculous to have two company's fighting each other on a battlefield the size of a Soccer pitch or two. Still, it's just good fun and I like it. I'm actually fine with really big units, but only in silly settings like 40k. Once or twice a year we play a big 40k battle (apoc-ish) using the Warpath 1.0 rules and house rules for titans and superheavies. It's totally over-the-top, but so is 40k.

I'm in the hobby for the figures, so most of my effort goes into the figures I like which for the most part are 28mm. I dabble in smaller scales, but 28mm is the one for me.

puree wrote:
0mm is even better, very cheap and takes no time to paint.

That is what I now do for mini games where it is about base size like KOW or historicals. MDF bases (or heavy card if you want). Print out some piccies and stick em on. Top down pictures, nato symbols or photos of the minis that would have been used or whatever.

I was thinking very much the same for KOW, being that it is a block game. I was going to cut 1/2" wooden blocks for KoW, and play it like an Ancients game. Then, just glue the relevant weapons and armor on the block.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

puree wrote:
0mm is even better, very cheap and takes no time to paint.

That is what I now do for mini games where it is about base size like KOW or historicals. MDF bases (or heavy card if you want). Print out some piccies and stick em on. Top down pictures, nato symbols or photos of the minis that would have been used or whatever.

I was thinking very much the same for KOW, being that it is a block game. I was going to cut 1/2" wooden blocks for KoW, and play it like an Ancients game. Then, just glue the relevant weapons and armor on the block.

I'm sure tactically it would function just fine, but Good-Heavens, that makes me sad just thinking about it. Roughly the same feeling I get when I see Warmachine players using paper or felt for all their terrain.

However, if you're mostly into board games or only interested in the tactical aspects of wargaming, then it would probably be a very workable option.

 Eilif wrote:

I'm sure tactically it would function just fine, but Good-Heavens, that makes me sad just thinking about it. Roughly the same feeling I get when I see Warmachine players using paper or felt for all their terrain.

Ironically, when I first started playing Warhammer 40k (Rogue Trader), I used the blue paper square cutouts from the back of the RT book for Space Marines and Orks, on top of a billiards table with pieces of felt cut out to represent terrain

Wow, that seems like a lifetime ago, LOL. However, for years, I used miniatures on top of felt (for terrain). It wasn't until much, much later that we got into actual, 3D terrain.

I'm sorry it bothers you almost as much as it bothers me that people think KoW is a 28mm minis game instead of the block game it really is.

To be frank, I like BattleLore 1E for my fantasy gaming, being even more streamlined than KoW.

There is a pretty cool P&M blog of a guy doing LOTR for KoW with 1/72 figures and 28mm for "giants" and monsters and so on. It's a cool little project and a great way to get big armies on the field with limited money or space.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

puree wrote:
0mm is even better, very cheap and takes no time to paint.

That is what I now do for mini games where it is about base size like KOW or historicals. MDF bases (or heavy card if you want). Print out some piccies and stick em on. Top down pictures, nato symbols or photos of the minis that would have been used or whatever.

I was thinking very much the same for KOW, being that it is a block game. I was going to cut 1/2" wooden blocks for KoW, and play it like an Ancients game. Then, just glue the relevant weapons and armor on the block.

I've thought it would be cool to have laser cut (or other fancy looking) movement trays that said what the unit was and its stats.
No models. No 20mm bases. Just movement trays marked to look like a general's table.
Even cooler if the table had similar notional terrain (concentric circles forming hills, frex).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm sorry it bothers you almost as much as it bothers me that people think KoW is a 28mm minis game instead of the block game it really is.

And WHFB is just a game of tokens arrange in blocks instead of a miniature game? In the end it's just a different size and number of tokens used.

Kriegsspiel is played on actual maps with coloured blocks to represent the units.

My 15mm KoW forces will use 28mm models for some of the larger monsters. Namely, plastic Warhammer Dwarf warriors for Dwarven earth elementals (animated anscestor statues in my force), one of the new Longbeards for a Greater Elemental, and my proposed Dark Elves will use the sweet flying Black Dragon from the DnD X-Wing style game.

I may also be using one of the Russian steam tanks from Dystopian Wars for a Dwarven Steam tank.

Luckily Splintered Light makes awesome 15mm minis, and especially their Dark Elf and Orc/Goblin lines have perfect analogs in KoW other than warmachines (which can be had from the Demonworld line)

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
IMO, KoW would actually look best with 10mm (or even 6mm!) minis on flat (non-plinth) bases. Too bad it would be such misery painting them...

I've often wanted to expand into playing something that small of a scale. I enjoyed painting Flames of War, I just never gelled with the rules (I didn't much gel with Warmahordes ether, though really enjoy the models, but I am certain I'll give Warmahordes another chance in the new year.
I also am planning to attempt to get friends to play other games, probably of that scale when I get things since it's a really neat one and they'd not have to paint them (they seem really only interested in painting the classic 28mm, yawn. Whatever, lots of games for that.
Right now they're being pretty insistent on D&D, which is cool, gives all that 4th ed stuff I bought some use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
My 15mm KoW forces will use 28mm models for some of the larger monsters. Namely, plastic Warhammer Dwarf warriors for Dwarven earth elementals (animated anscestor statues in my force), one of the new Longbeards for a Greater Elemental, and my proposed Dark Elves will use the sweet flying Black Dragon from the DnD X-Wing style game.

I may also be using one of the Russian steam tanks from Dystopian Wars for a Dwarven Steam tank.

Luckily Splintered Light makes awesome 15mm minis, and especially their Dark Elf and Orc/Goblin lines have perfect analogs in KoW other than warmachines (which can be had from the Demonworld line)

Aren't they the ones who make those hilariously charming Pig-Faced Orc models?
Bought a bunch of those lads for KoW.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
IMO, KoW would actually look best with 10mm (or even 6mm!) minis on flat (non-plinth) bases. Too bad it would be such misery painting them...

Misery why?

http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=4426.0

AegisGrimm wrote:My 15mm KoW forces will use 28mm models for some of the larger monsters. Namely, plastic Warhammer Dwarf warriors for Dwarven earth elementals (animated anscestor statues in my force), one of the new Longbeards for a Greater Elemental, and my proposed Dark Elves will use the sweet flying Black Dragon from the DnD X-Wing style game.

I may also be using one of the Russian steam tanks from Dystopian Wars for a Dwarven Steam tank.

Luckily Splintered Light makes awesome 15mm minis, and especially their Dark Elf and Orc/Goblin lines have perfect analogs in KoW other than warmachines (which can be had from the Demonworld line)

Sounds like a cool project. 15mm has come a LONG way in terms of fantasy minis. There are so many companies now doing really good stuff and SL is one of the best IMHO. I really like their 18/20mm Splintered Lands animal figures. If I wasn't already invested in 28mm, I'd be tempted that way for sure.

Kilkrazy wrote:Kriegsspiel is played on actual maps with coloured blocks to represent the units.

Yep and Kriegsspiel is a wargame, not a "Miniatures wargame"

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'm sorry it bothers you almost as much as it bothers me that people think KoW is a 28mm minis game instead of the block game it really is.

To be frank, I like BattleLore 1E for my fantasy gaming, being even more streamlined than KoW.

That makes no sense at all. A minis game is a minis game based on it's use of minis, not in how many miniatures are on each base. By your logic, every game that multibases is a "block" game and that would encompass the majority of historical miniatures games and alot of sci-fi and fantasy games.

The Battle lore idea isnt' a bad one. I think I've seen battlelore done at a convention with larger scale minis and scupted hex terrain.