How to counter a counter or tailored list? IK vs Melta/Arc/Lascannon/ fusion spam

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**Filch**

Is it even viable for an army of 5 IK to fight equal amount of points of anti tank spam?

I am playing in a environment where its okay to tailor before a match begins. So when I go to play my 5 IK, people just spam anti tanks. Is there anything I can do about it as the IK player?

So the marine/ sister player spams meltaguns. The skitarii player spams arc. The tau player spams fusion.

The only logical choice is to not even play 5 ik.

I can fit 4 wardens and a gallant in a 1850 list. The enrmy would have like 20-30 anti tank guns. Some on vehicles or stuff like centurion and heavy weapons team.

edit:

I have a well rounded Chaos Marine army. I dont want to play csm.

**vipoid**

Filch wrote:
The only logical choice is to not even play 5 ik.

What a tragedy that would be.

**jeffersonian000**

Its not your list, nor their list, its the table you are playing on. More tall, LoS blocking terrain will counter tge bulk of your issues. Don't fight on an open plan, fight in a hive city. Remember, its your 5 Spartans against their anti-tank Persians, so it behooves you to stop them at Thermopile than in the verdant plains.

SJ

**SickSix**

Really? What do you want them to bring? Flamers?

C'mon dude, if all you play is IK, then you can't really accuse them of tailoring because they know exactly what your bringing and they would be stupid to bring an army that can't beat your 5 'I-win' buttons.

**jeffersonian000**

If 5 Knights is an "I win" button, why is it that they never win tournaments?

SJ

**Drasius**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
If 5 Knights is an "I win" button, why is it that they never win tournaments?

SJ

Probably because we're talking about a casual environment? Not to mention the fact that IK matches are usually quite one sided. The opponent either has enough AT or ObSec and he's fine or he doesn't and gets his gak pushed in (which is exactly what we're seeing here, if you know ahead of time that someone is bringing 5 knights, then you're going to trade flamers for lascannons). Given that tournament players often build their lists with the fact that AdLance or 5 knights is a viable threat, having the counters to that is kinda an integreal part of enuring you can get to the top tables. Thusly at least 1 of the knights opponents will bring a hard counter list and then the knight player has no chance to win the tourney.

As someone who owns 5 knights (who only come out for apoc but have been run as an army for lulz), I know just how fragile they can be.

A better question would be along the lines of, why is there such a huge gap reported between the win rate of armies with imperial knights and everyone else.

**Vankraken**

Your bring an army of only AV13 super heavy walkers. If somebody knows ahead of time when making a list that they would want to bring power swords or lightning claws? Your playing a mono unit type list so either they handicap themselves with worthless units that can't hurt it (which is dumb) or they bring the guns that can be effective against it (which is a hard counter of sorts). Unfortunately an army of only AV13 walkers is not very well rounded and your going to end up facing things that just smoke it (grav and melta spam). Sadly it also is sort of that way for the other player when they have a well rounded list but the only thing they can attack are a bunch of AV13 walker.

Most games I play at my FLGS is set up knowing what faction the opponent is playing. I don't know the lists but it gives a general idea of what to expect but I know if I heard "Imperial Knight army" then there will be a LOT of anti vehicle weapons as it would be foolish not to. Why load on useless shootas or take flash gitz when they would be completely useless except to get stomped on by knights. Then again if I heard Imperial Knight army then I probably wouldn't play because I wanted to play 40k and not Battletech.

**GoonBandito**

Filch wrote:
Is it even viable for an army of 5 IK to fight equal amount of points of anti tank spam?

I am playing in a environment where its okay to tailor before a match begins. So when I go to play my 5 IK, people just spam anti tanks. Is there anything I can do about it as the IK player?

So the marine/ sister player spams meltaguns. The skitarii player spams arc. The tau player spams fusion.

The only logical choice is to not even play 5 ik.

I can fit 4 wardens and a gallant in a 1850 list. The enrmy would have like 20-30 anti tank guns. Some on vehicles or stuff like centurion and heavy weapons team.

Maybe don't bank your entire army on AV values then? Perhaps a more rounded army might serve you better? Take some other Imperium of Man armies as allies to complement your knights, and prevent you getting hard-countered by Anti-Vehicle spam.

**the_scotsman**

"Man it sure stinks when I take an entire army composed of a single model immune to basic weaponry, and my opponent SPAMS one in four of their models to be holding a weapon that can harm one of mine."

Imperial knights are not an army. They are a single model skewed pretty heavily on one side of the unit spectrum, and you should basically think of it like you're running an army of entirely, say, drop melta tactical squads. Your games are always going to be one sided one way or another.

**Martel732**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Its not your list, nor their list, its the table you are playing on. More tall, LoS blocking terrain will counter tge bulk of your issues. Don't fight on an open plan, fight in a hive city. Remember, its your 5 Spartans against their anti-tank Persians, so it behooves you to stop them at Thermopile than in the verdant plains.

SJ

Not all battles take place in a hive. Some take place in plains.

**koooaei**

Why don't you bring 3 IK and 100 guards to mix things up?

**McNinja**

Other than simply not running an IK army, there really isn't much else to do. If you ran an army entirely composed of 4 baneblades, would you still complain that you're losing? Especially if your opponent knows ahead of time.

Basically, you either need to figure out what you're doing wrong to get your stuff blown up, or take out a knight or three and add something else.

**BoomWolf**

Yep, the fault is yours. Running a superheavy spam us bad enough, complaining people dare to actually bring weapons that matters against you is outright rude.

**Jimsolo**

I think your issue is one of balance. Your unit choices are good, of course, but since they all suffer the same weakness, you create an imbalance in your lists.

The only solution is to create more balanced lists, unfortunately.

**locarno24**

Depends.

They 'easy answer' is either:

(a) don't take pure knights - because as Jimsolo says, if your entire army is the same kind of unit, then if someone has enough fire power of the type required, you're going to be handled very roughly. Still, Knights are their own army and codex, and it'd be a shame if a faction wasn't useable by themselves, however hard the tactical challenge may be (ignoring the Legion of the Damned codex in the corner here)

(b) don't play in an environment which allows tailoring. Which is probably not an option, because if that's your local gaming group, you're not going to change that. And besides, as noted, if people are used to changing their lists on the fly demanding that they spend points on power swords and flamers seems a little ingenuous.

So....how can knights compete without infantry support?
I think the comment about cover is key. If you're worried about getting overrun and killed quickly, then objective secured isn't your biggest worry, incoming fire is.

Therefore the Baronial Court (with its 3+ ion shields) will probably benefit you more than a Household detachment.

Other than that, it's a case of figuring out how to protect your flanks and rear. Depending on your group's reading of the rules, the relic Sanctuary may be a good call, other than that, working your knights in pairs might help; one knights provides a shield and frontal armour on one facing but also blocks line of sight and provides a cover save to the knight behind it, who in turn provides some protection for his own side/rear armour.

**vipoid**

Jimsolo wrote:
The only solution is to create more balanced lists, unfortunately.

Why is that unfortunate?

**AndrewGPaul**

Presumably because it'll be expensive for Filch.

**Filch**

I already spent $150x5=$750 on the 5 Knights. And that was before taxes. I have to save up a whole new year or 2 to get another army. I bouhht the IK on the promise a friend of a friend was willing to buy my old army but he backed out and I essentially spent money i did not have. Excuse me but I dont want to spend $20 to get 30 d10s for your rules proposal to switch wh40k from d6s tk d10s especially when i already have so many d6s.

I have a have a CSM army that has all the infantry but I dont want to move piles of cultists and marines. Also CSM is weak. Their yroops are other armies elite choices. The best I can get out of it is to be target practice for new players. Also my csm requires extensive tailoring and m in n maxing to win. I wanted my IK to be a static TAC list.

Chaos Knight is house ruled to not be a daemon but rather a Daemon Knight of X. So no grimoire for a 2++. Not that I care to copy the strategy.
Also 425pts for a chaos knight is inefficient when there is the atropas for 435pts. In addition I prefer the warden, crusader, gallant. Chaos Knights are only paladin and errant.

5 IK is an army so deal with it. Luckily for many, you will never face 5 IK because they dont very much.
Ada Lance is still king with Household as the alternative.

**locarno24**

The Adamantium Lance is effective, but not an option for you because if I remember right it's restricted to Paladins and Errants.

The Baronial Court's 3+ ion shields is probably the best you can do as a substitute with crusaders or wardens (which is a shame, as they're the more effective knights).

Also 425pts for a chaos knight is inefficient when there is the atropas for 435pts

Not really - they do very different things.
The Chaos Knight has an invulnerable save in a melee and to its sides and rear - priceless for a close combat knight - as well as the Foe-Reaper Chainsword (designed to kill Gargantuan Creatures) and the option of the Dirge Caster. Essentially, it specialises in piling into the midst of the enemy army and murdering things with a toughness value.

I'm not going to get into the various interpretations of the Daemon Knight Of rule, because there are at least as many versions of this as there are players with the damn model.

By comparison, the Atropos is great at blowing up buildings with its wrecker weapon, and at killing stuff with an armour value - and is nigh indestructible from one facing only, thanks to its ionic flare shield - it wants to stand off from the fight and blow stuff up at arms length.

Unfortunately, the other suggestion I might make - consider a Quaestoris mechanicum force (30k) won't really apply because I don't think you have the option to field Quaestoris wardens at the moment.

I suspect it's going to have to be tricks of maneuver that you use to protect yourself from melta/fusion deep strikes. How does a game normally go?

**vipoid**

Filch wrote:
5 IK is an army so deal with it.

Yeah, you're not exactly inviting sympathy.

But, by the same token, anti-vehicle exists so deal with it.

**KhorneontheCobb**

Bringing 5 Knights and complaining that people bring melta when they know they'll face you is the ultimate crybaby move.
I play the game for fun and the crybabies are the least fun to play... I wouldn't even play against you. Not because of the 5 Knights- because you'd whine if I brought some melta to deal with it.

**Martel732**

Don't let players know what list you are bringing until they have built a list.

**Unit1126PLL**

Bring fewer knights and build an army that doesn't exclusively rely on a single unit type.

**the_scotsman**

]

Filch wrote:
5 IK is an army so deal with it.

So is an army composed only of drop pod melta squads.

That's a solid unit, fielded in a good configuration, and if your opponent runs just mechanized tanks, you'd be happy.

Now guess what happens when you play against Tyranids, or Tau? You'd learn you were playing an extremely one-dimensional skew list. Guess what the first and only piece of advice you'd get would be?

**koooaei**

We generally discuss lists beforehands. At least the general consensus. If any of the players feels that either of lists ain't going to match the other, we suggest some changes. We come to a concensus where everyone's more or less happy before the game.

**Martel732**

koooaei wrote:
We generally discuss lists beforehands. At least the general consensus. If any of the players feels that either of lists ain't going to match the other, we suggest some changes. We come to a concensus where everyone's more or less happy before the game.

Seems like that takes some edge out of list building to me.

**koooaei**

Not much. There are generally just some minor changes. For example, when i was running 150 melee guardsmen against sm, i suggested him swapping his lazcannons and grav for anti-infantry stuff. Cause otherwise, it'd be a bit too one-sided and i wouldn't have enjoyed it.

**Martel732**

koooaei wrote:
Not much. There are generally just some minor changes. For example, when i was running 150 guardsmen against sm, i suggested him swapping his lazcannons and grav for anti-infantry stuff. Cause otherwise, it'd be a bit too one-sided and i wouldn't have enjoyed it.

He could have lascannoned and graved the vehicles. Marines have bolters and their fists to kill guardsmen.

**koooaei**

Not when there are 150 of them. Ig still won that game but it ended up being much closer and much more enjoyable. In fact, it was a hair close of a loss for IG but Yarikk is a tough old fart not willing to die.

Fists don't help much vs melee guards all in all. Bolters do help.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

He could have lascannoned and graved the vehicles. Marines have bolters and their fists to kill guardsmen.

Had no vehicles. That's why i suggested him not wasting points on lazcannonz.

**Martel732**

koooaei wrote:
Not when there are 150 of them. Ig still won that game but it ended up being much closer and much more enjoyable. In fact, it was a hair close of a loss for IG but Yarikk is a tough old fart not willing to die.

Fists don't help much vs melee guards all in all. Bolters do help.

150? I guess. It still seems tame to me compared to 25 scatterbikes.

"Had no vehicles. That's why i suggested him not wasting points on lazcannonz."

That's the power of a focused list. You make your opponent bring equipment that doesn't help them. Don't tell them ahead of time.