Top 10 shooty units in 40k

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**just2fierce**

10- pask in a punisher
9- ork warbikers
8- helldrake
7- venom
6- mechanicus destroyers
5- anything gauss
4- missilesides
3- flyrant
2- scatbikes
1- centurions

**vipoid**

Grizzyzz wrote:
I don't really see your argument that DE have trouble with armor lists.... my friends typical DE list has about 20 lances/blasters.

You realise that's like saying "I don't know why IG are having trouble against Decurion Necrons - my friends can field at least 50 lasguns!"

Zoner wrote:

My question is, what would you suggest replace the Venom in the 9th pick rather than contrasting it to the scatbike?

Probably a Wraithknight with whatever the 36" D-weapons are called.

2 D-weapons and 2 Scatter Lasers, each of which can target a different unit. A 12" jump move, on top of being possibly the most durable unit in the game for its cost. Also, anything wishing to tie it up in combat has to deal with S10 attacks that strike at I5, along with its Stomps.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Huron black heart wrote:
Just for the sake of adding something different, what about Obliterators? The ability to pick the required weapon and in a 2+5++ package surely isn't to be sniffed at, and if you charge them make sure you finish them off as they also have power fists

If they weren't almost 80 points, sure.

**Skullhammer**

1&2- unit of 10 scouges with 4 splinter cannons = 42 poison shots sure cant hurt vehicals but is great for anti infantry or with 4 haywire blasters for anti tank though i'd drop the unit to 5. Fast (if you drop 8 shots from salvo) come with an invun and only get tougher as the game goes on.
3&4 -skittari vangaurd with either arc rifles for anti tank or there rad guns and plas guns (put your warlord here for prefered enemy). Again not so tough but they put a hell of alot of shots/wounds.
5- a full squad of steath suits so many burst cannon shots.
6- flamers of tzeench fast 2 wound flamer templates can have up to 9 in a unit also ap4. So many hits.
7- mechanicus destroyers with grav or phospher (though grav is the best). 6 shots each in units of upto6.
8- sterngaurd just so adaptable.
9- full squad of lootas so many shots. True hitting is a probkem but there autocannons and moving isnt much of a downside.
10- a max squad of cron warriors lots of shots that can hurt anything on a tough chassis. Nough said.

The above in no particular order.

**jy2**

vipoid wrote:
jy2 wrote:

Here is my reasoning for why the Venom belongs in my Top 10 list.

It's dirt cheap for what it does (55-pts for a gun boat) and it does it well due to BS4 (average of 8 hits).

It's actually 65pts, unless you're only taking one splinter cannon.

My bad. My calculations for the cost/shot was based off of 65-pts however.

jy2 wrote:
there are a lot of choices for AT in the army for that purpose

No, there aren't. Anti-tank is a huge problem for DE, and the abundance of weapons that can't scratch vehicles, nor be swapped out for weapons that can, is a serious problem.

This is ironic. As a person who plays the army, you never think you have enough. As a person who plays against the army, you think that they have too much.

In any case, unless you're playing against Battle Company or a Knight army (or another DE venom-spam army), mech-spam isn't as prevalent nowadays as they once were back in 5th. A basis of 3 ravagers and 3 of those DE flyers is pretty decent for AT. Then you can tack on guys with blasters/dark lances or guys with haywire on top of that and I feel that their AT is above-average, at least in comparison to many of the other armies in the game. And to top it off, their guns can hurt heavy armor whereas other guns like missile launchers and lascannons have problems.

jy2 wrote:
rather, it is to hunt down infantry. As a bonus, it fires poisoned shots so can even hurt MC's!

But that's the point - it's not good at hunting infantry. Against marines, you have a vehicle with 12 long-range bolter shots. Any marine players here want to praise bolters?

Against IG, eldar and other T3 models, it's effectively firing AP5 lasgun shots.

If you're hunting infantry, you really don't want poison 4+.

I mean, these 12 shots you keep praising amount to 1.3 dead marines. Is that supposed to be good?

Compared to units around its price range (assuming target are T4 3+ marines):

Venom = 1.3W
5 Tactical marines at Rapid-fire range = 1.1W
Chimera (that remains stationary) = .75W
War Walker w/2x Scatter Lasers = 1.48W
7 Fire Warriors at Rapid-fire range = 1.55W
1 Missile-side = 1.5W

Now assuming the target is a T6 3+ Monstrous creature:

Venom = 1.3W
5 Tactical marines at Rapid-fire range = .37W
Chimera (that remains stationary) = .42W
War Walker w/2x Scatter Lasers = .89W
7 Fire Warriors at Rapid-fire range = .78W
1 Missile-side = 1W

The venom is ok against regular MEQ infantry, but as the infantry-based unit goes up in Toughness, the Venom begins to excel.

jy2 wrote:

It can jink for 4+ cover but also has a 5++ Invuln against shots that ignore cover.

Trust me when I say a 5++ really doesn't get you very far on a 2HP AV10 open-topped vehicle.

Agreed. However, it does make it slightly more survivable than others of its kind against armies that can ignore cover.

jy2 wrote:

Most importantly, it is dirt cheap and easily spammable. Yeah it's fragile. Then again, so is the #1 choice on my list, the scatter bike.

But, as a transport, you can't call it spammable and then ignore the cost of the rather less useful units you have to buy to get it.

Also, whilst scatter bikes are fragile, they can move 2d6" in the assault phase to get back to safety. You also don't need to take passengers with terrible survivability and crap weapons to access them.

Passengers is if you want to make the Venom ObSec (when taken as a troop dedicated transport). But yes, there is that transport tax. However, one can also argue that having 2 cheap ObSec units, both with poisoned weaponry, isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially in a MSU army.

And of course, trying to make the #9 shooty unit on my list as good as the #1 shooty unit on my list isn't exactly fair.

jy2 wrote:
If you scale it up, 5 units of scatbikes (60-shots, 405-pts) can get you 6 venoms (72-shots, 390-pts) and change.

How are you taking 6 venoms without passengers? Or are you going unbound? In which case those Scatterbikes will be ObjSec, and your venoms won't be.

Moreover, have you actually done any math for this? I'm guessing not.

vs GEQ
Venoms: 24
Scatterbikes: 27.7

vs MEQ
Venoms: 8
Scatterbikes: 11.1

vs TEQ
Venoms: 4
Scatterbikes: 5.6

vs T5 MEQ
Venoms: 8
Scatterbikes: 8.9

vs T6 3+
Venoms: 8
Scatterbikes: 6.7

vs AV10
Venoms: 0hp
Scatterbikes: 20hp

vs AV11
Venoms: 0hp
Scatterbikes: 13.3hp

vs AV12
Venoms: 0hp
Scatterbikes: 6.7hp

You'll notice that, despite your claim about the venom being dedicated anti-infantry, the Scatterbikes outperform them against every type of infantry. Literally the only target venoms are better against is T6 MCs. In exchange, the venoms can do nothing against AV10, whilst the Scatterbikes can harm anything up to AV12. They can kill 2 Chimeras, 4 Rhinos or 5 Jinking Venoms each turn. As in, they can wipe out basically your entire venom fleet in one round. I guess numbers aren't actually much of a defence after all - not when you're so ridiculously fragile.

Moreover, this is using your own massively biased scenario - where the venoms are taken without passengers. If you include the cost of Warriors, then suddenly you're looking at 105pts per venom, with a negligible increase in firepower or survivability. Shall we run the above numbers again and see if the venoms are even close to scatterbikes against non-vehicles?

Venoms were good back in 5th. What you seem to have missed is that the game has moved on since then, but venoms haven't. And, their firepower just isn't enough to keep them competitive - let alone put them in the top 10. It certainly doesn't justify their atrocious survivability, and their inability to harm vehicles is crippling. Gargantuan Creatures are the final nail in their coffin. Poison was supposed to be DE's defence against big creatures (as they lack Grav, Plasma, D-weapons or any equivalent), and is the one target against which Venoms should really shine. Except they don't. Because GCs were given virtual immunity to poison. So, they've traded any ability to harm vehicles for... nothing whatsoever.

**vipoid**

jy2 wrote:

This is ironic. As a person who plays the army, you never think you have enough. As a person who plays against the army, you think that they have too much.

Actually, even my opponents agree DE haven't got enough anti-tank.

jy2 wrote:
A basis of 3 ravagers and 3 of those DE flyers is pretty decent for AT.

So long as your opponent agrees to only bring a single Chimera.

jy2 wrote:
Then you can tack on guys with blasters/dark lances or guys with haywire on top of that and I feel that their AT is above-average, at least in comparison to many of the other armies in the game.

You're the only person I've seen in a long time to say, with a straight face, that DE have above-average anti-armour. Which armies do you think we exceed?

jy2 wrote:
And to top it off, their guns can hurt heavy armor whereas other guns like missile launchers and lascannons have problems.

Against AV10, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV11, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV12, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV13, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -12" range.
Against AV14, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with +1S and -12" range.

Dark Lances are only better against AV14. And you're going to see a hell of a lot more AV10-12 than you are AV13-14. Moreover, marines and such have meltaguns to take out high-AV vehicles - we just get short-range Dark Lances.

They are a bloody awful weapon.

jy2 wrote:
And of course, trying to make the #9 shooty unit on my list as good as the #1 shooty unit on my list isn't exactly fair.

Well, you were the one who brought up the comparison in the first place - I just ran the math.

Leaving aside your baffling statements about DE anti-vehicle weapons though, you make some good points about the venom. If you're wondering why I haven't bothered to quote them above, it's because I see nothing to argue with.

**jy2**

Huron black heart wrote:
Just for the sake of adding something different, what about Obliterators? The ability to pick the required weapon and in a 2+5++ package surely isn't to be sniffed at, and if you charge them make sure you finish them off as they also have power fists

They're not bad. Their main strengths are their durability and their flexibility (insofar as having several different types of weapons). However, 2 main things keep them from my list:

1. They are not efficient shooters. 60-70 pts for potentially 1 lascannon shot (or even 4 assault cannon shots with limited range) just isn't going to cut it.

2. Having to change guns every turn makes them somewhat inconsistent.

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
On the other hand shots per point ratio doesn't take into account the quality of the shot. But it's JY2's list so he can use the deciding factor how he likes.

Right. It doesn't take into account the quality of the shots, only the quantity. Factors like the BS, strength of the guns and other factors like Poisoned or Twin-linkage can actually make a unit's shooting better (or even worse) than the actual cost/shot ratio. Hence why the flyrant is actually a better shooter than his pts/shot suggests. However, the cost/ratio can be used as a general indicator to approximate the efficiency of a unit's shooting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

vipoid wrote:

jy2 wrote:
And of course, trying to make the #9 shooty unit on my list as good as the #1 shooty unit on my list isn't exactly fair.

Well, you were the one who brought up the comparison in the first place - I just ran the math.

Leaving aside your baffling statements about DE anti-vehicle weapons though, you make some good points about the venom. If you're wondering why I haven't bothered to quote them above, it's because I see nothing to argue with.

Just brought up the comparison between the scatbike and the venom to show that the venom is a more efficient shooter for the price. It puts out just as many shots at a cheaper package and not many units can do that against the scatterbike. My comparison was never meant to imply that the Venom is just as good as scatbikes overall.

**WrentheFaceless**

Surprised no votes for Skitarii Vanguard

BS4 baseline, higher with Doctrine. Base 3 shot gun that does 2 wounds on anything on a 6, can take rapid fire haywire, 3 shot plasma or armorbane ap 3 snipers and are relentless. Can make their seargent your HQ for prefered enemy.

Only bad thing is the 18 inch range.

**ZergSmasher**

Zoner wrote:
Personally, I would like to volunteer the Heldrake to be on the top 10. With the main reason being that the Heldrake (while not as good as it used to be) is still the best option for Chaos (personal opinion). Kind of a weird comparison but it's like pro sports and the MVP vote. The Heldrake is the best player on a bad team.

Hellturkey was #6 on my list. I love running that thing with my Khorne Daemonkin army. Never fails to kill stuff.

I could add some honorable mentions to my list, including:
Ork Lootas: These guys get pretty good shooting, especially if they roll three shots each and they are in a large blob.
Eldar Wraithknight: Don't really need to comment on this one! It barely missed my top 10.
Chaos Obliterators: Changing weapons to suit the current tactical demand is pretty good actually. I consider these one of the few good units in the CSM codex.
Vindicare Assassin: Don't laugh! I've had plenty of success with this guy, notably in a game where he popped TWO chaos land raiders!

**Frozocrone**

I didn't put vehicles in my list, Hellturkey included for the fact that you can pen them and effectively nullify them for a turm .

Regarding the hellturkey, one pen and you either snapshot, lose the baleflamer or crash and burn. It can also come on turn 4 at the latest...not a huge fan of flyers in general unless they can manipulate their reserves, such as the Raven Guard formation. (although it is good, I just don't think top ten good).

**ZergSmasher**

Frozocrone wrote:
I didn't put vehicles in my list, Hellturkey included for the fact that you can pen them and effectively nullify them for a turm .

Regarding the hellturkey, one pen and you either snapshot, lose the baleflamer or crash and burn. It can also come on turn 4 at the latest...not a huge fan of flyers in general unless they can manipulate their reserves, such as the Raven Guard formation. (although it is good, I just don't think top ten good).

Heldrake can ignore Shaken/Stunned on a 2+ thanks to Daemonic Possession. And it has a 5++ save. Not that great I know, but that Daemon save has saved my Heldrake's butt more than once! I do see your point about the reserves thing, though. I've had the thing wait until turn 4 to come in. It really sucks when that happens.

**Frozocrone**

That I did not know. Maybe my CSM mate forgets it can do that.

Did know about save. It's really good when it comes into effect, particularly if you've just put all your AA into it.

**Grizzyzz**

vipoid wrote:

You're the only person I've seen in a long time to say, with a straight face, that DE have above-average anti-armour. Which armies do you think we exceed?

jy2 wrote:
And to top it off, their guns can hurt heavy armor whereas other guns like missile launchers and lascannons have problems.

Against AV10, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV11, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV12, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV13, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -12" range.
Against AV14, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with +1S and -12" range.

Dark Lances are only better against AV14. And you're going to see a hell of a lot more AV10-12 than you are AV13-14. Moreover, marines and such have meltaguns to take out high-AV vehicles - we just get short-range Dark Lances.

They are a bloody awful weapon.

You have to take into account the availability on such mobile platforms. They don't need to be 48" range because they are on vehicles that can move 12" and still shoot them at full BS. That's equivalent in range, and I would argue better.

Yes, they are s8, it can only do so much against lower av vehicles compared to lascannons, but Marines are one of the few armies that have a lascannon... even tau can't bring such a high strength weapon for such a cheap point cost as marines.

I am not saying a DE army can show up against a full Russ army and win always, but I wont say it's not impossible. As per what armies I think they will come equipped more prepared because of availability... Totally depends if you restrict this to shooting; If you do: Tyranids, Orks, Chaos, I would even argue marines (50% of the time, mainly because marines need to choose to bring it)

**Tsilber**

Can a unit with a dedicated transport be counted?

Id have to say

10 dark eldar in a raider.

10/20 twin linked poison shots, deep-striking, with a 3+ cover save is pretty solid for 175ish. Add in sails to get nearly anywhere to grab an Objective.

And the skimmer deep strike rule also helps.

In my top 10, a few that have not been mentioned.

Unit of thunder-fire, unit of wyverns, and for the points, orc lobbas.

**vipoid**

Grizzyzz wrote:

You have to take into account the availability on such mobile platforms. They don't need to be 48" range because they are on vehicles that can move 12" and still shoot them at full BS.

If you're referring to Ravagers, no they can't. If they move more than 6" then they're snapshotting one of their guns.

Moreover, you also have to take into account the actual effectiveness of those weapons, and what those vehicles trade for speed. It takes 3 Ravagers with Dark Lances (375pts) to destroy a single 65pt Chimera out of cover. And, in exchange for the ability to move all of 6" and fire all weapons (giving them all the speed of a Leman Russ), they're AV11 and open-topped.

Grizzyzz wrote:
That's equivalent in range, and I would argue better.

Even if that was true (it isn't), the difference is that a 48" range weapon lets you stay further away from your opponent's weapons.

Furthermore, as above, DE are already sacrificing durability for speed - they shouldn't need to sacrifice range and power as well. Not when so many other units get given speed without sacrificing anything.

Grizzyzz wrote:

Yes, they are s8, it can only do so much against lower av vehicles compared to lascannons, but Marines are one of the few armies that have a lascannon... even tau can't bring such a high strength weapon for such a cheap point cost as marines.

Eh? Tau can boast plenty of S5-7 shots, which are far better at taking out light vehicles. They also have 18-24" range meltas to take out heavier vehicles. Not to mention being able to remove cover with Markerlights, increase BS with Formation bonuses etc. - whilst DE can boast nothing of the sort.

Tau are vastly better at anti-vehicle than DE.

**Grizzyzz**

vipoid wrote:
If you're referring to Ravagers, no they can't. If they move more than 6" then they're snapshotting one of their guns.

Can raiders not take them? I was under the impression they could... if not then my mistake.

Grizzyzz wrote:
That's equivalent in range, and I would argue better.

vipoid wrote:
Even if that was true (it isn't), the difference is that a 48" range weapon lets you stay further away from your opponent's weapons.

Completely true, but DE vehicles have easy access to +1 cover saves, so using your mobility to get into range and decent cover where you may not even need to jink for a 4+ save.

vipoid wrote:

Grizzyzz wrote:

Yes, they are s8, it can only do so much against lower av vehicles compared to lascannons, but Marines are one of the few armies that have a lascannon... even tau can't bring such a high strength weapon for such a cheap point cost as marines.

Eh? Tau can boast plenty of S5-7 shots, which are far better at taking out light vehicles. They also have 18-24" range meltas to take out heavier vehicles. Not to mention being able to remove cover with Markerlights, increase BS with Formation bonuses etc. - whilst DE can boast nothing of the sort.
Tau are vastly better at anti-vehicle than DE.

Tau are better then DE yes, and Tau were not on my list of armies DE were better then either..! But that was not the point I was trying to make there. Simply, I was saying even Tau do not have access to a lascannon for as cheap as marines can bring it.

**vipoid**

Grizzyzz wrote:

Can raiders not take them? I was under the impression they could... if not then my mistake.

They can, but we're getting less and less efficient. I mean, we're now looking at 540pts of Raiders to kill that 65pt Chimera in the open.

Grizzyzz wrote:

Completely true, but DE vehicles have easy access to +1 cover saves, so using your mobility to get into range and decent cover where you may not even need to jink for a 4+ save.

Well, I'm not sure I'd call 15pts 'easy access' - not on fragile vehicles that aren't exactly cheap to begin with. If you can get a save from terrain, then it's nice. Especially since, being Av10-11 and open-topped, even a single shot that gets through is often enough to destroy them. Trust me - I know.

The other aspect is that DE vehicles are already reliant on Jink saves, but with the increasing number of Ignores Cover weapons in the game, buying extra Jink saves for your vehicles is very much putting all your eggs into one basket, as it were.

Don't get me wrong - 3+ Jink can be really good if you're not relying on the vehicle's own firepower. Jinking with a Raider is fine - since the loss of firepower is minimal and the crew can still fire/assault normally. Jinking with a Ravager cripples its already dubious firepower and basically ruins its main function.

Grizzyzz wrote:

Tau are better then DE yes, and Tau were not on my list of armies DE were better then either..! But that was not the point I was trying to make there. Simply, I was saying even Tau do not have access to a lascannon for as cheap as marines can bring it.

Ah, I see.

**Grizzyzz**

Totally agree, every new codex that comes out pretty much sticks its finger up at DE, and Chaos (but then again its chaos right

)

**vipoid**

Grizzyzz wrote:
Totally agree, every new codex that comes out pretty much sticks its finger up at DE, and Chaos (but then again its chaos right )

"Sorry Chaos, you can't have Razorbacks or Drop Pods as it would make you too much like SMs. Now, if you'll excuse is, we're off to give SMs Obliterators +1"

**Btothefnrock**

Surprised sternguard aren't on the list...

**Grizzyzz**

Btothefnrock wrote:
Surprised sternguard aren't on the list...

I think they are decent, earn some respect.. but are they better then most other units people have mentioned? I don't think so. They never worked for me personally

**koooaei**

Mek gunz anyone? Cheap, shooty, effective. With t7 meatshields for 3 ppm. Nice IC bunker.

**vipoid**

koooaei wrote:
Mek gunz anyone? Cheap, shooty, effective. With t7 meatshields for 3 ppm. Nice IC bunker.

Do you use them as a warlord-bunker, or for some other IC?

**Martel732**

Btothefnrock wrote:
Surprised sternguard aren't on the list...

Because they have been surpassed. And so many players throw them away, so they never get to shoot much.

**Grizzyzz**

Martel732 wrote:
Btothefnrock wrote:
Surprised sternguard aren't on the list...

Because they have been surpassed. And so many players throw them away, so they never get to shoot much.

Speaking of sterngaurd though.... I think Legion of the Damned are pretty viable for an honorable mention at the least.

3++, relentless.. less deepstrike scatter, and ignore cover with any weapon... not bad at all!

**koooaei**

vipoid wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Mek gunz anyone? Cheap, shooty, effective. With t7 meatshields for 3 ppm. Nice IC bunker.

Do you use them as a warlord-bunker, or for some other IC?

Generally, DLS megaboss. This squad advances to the center of the board, tanks with t7 2+, loses ap2 stuff to 3 ppm grots and can hold it's own in melee. I prefer KMK for this job. The squad is afraid of s10 ap2 and of strong melee units but all in all, it's a really good point investment. 5 s8 ap2 blast potentially with reroll for 150 base points is good. Add in some mobility and cc choppiness and they're great.

**Frozocrone**

koooaei wrote:
Mek gunz anyone? Cheap, shooty, effective. With t7 meatshields for 3 ppm. Nice IC bunker.

They were 8 in mine. Mobility was a huge issue with my list (aside Broadsides, who have an incredible output for their cost and Devastators/Fire Dragons, who I would switch with Relic Sicaran Battle Tank and Black Knights). Mek Gunz get to stay as they have a large range and are so cheap for what they can do.

**koooaei**

Frozocrone wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Mek gunz anyone? Cheap, shooty, effective. With t7 meatshields for 3 ppm. Nice IC bunker.

They were 8 in mine. Mobility was a huge issue with my list (aside Broadsides, who have an incredible output for their cost and Devastators/Fire Dragons, who I would switch with Relic Sicaran Battle Tank and Black Knights). Mek Gunz get to stay as they have a large range and are so cheap for what they can do.

agree with you here

**Btothefnrock**

Martel732 wrote:
Btothefnrock wrote:
Surprised sternguard aren't on the list...

Because they have been surpassed. And so many players throw them away, so they never get to shoot much.

^Agree with that last part...

But if you use them as an actual fire base unit vs. ruining them with combi-weapons and becoming a suicide squad, they are pretty darn nasty.

Oh, you have all bikes? I'll wound on 2's (or use the Ignore Cover bolts if you are Ravenwing with that dumb 2+ rerollable)
Really need to kill some 3+ save guys? We have AP 3 round (with Imperial Fists tactics, the gets hot is nerfed pretty hard)
And the Ap 4 30" range shots can be good when you are far back, or see something with 4+ save (not often honestly, lol)

Are they the best shooting unit in the game? No. But I still think they are in the top 10 if used correctly. (I'm still blown away that people use them for combi weapons- just use a command squad!!!)

**kryczek**

I would like to give a mention to devourer gaunts. 120 points for 45 St4 shots aint too bad.