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It's not a shooty list without a Vulture with its Twin-Linked Punisher cannon.

I think everything has been said !

A 12/12/10 Flyer with Strafing Run and Vector Dancer issuing 23 S5 shots (20 TL Punisher S5 AP- + 3 HB S5 AP4) has something to say to this list!

If we're up for FW stuff, what about a custom stompa? 2 massive S: D blasts, masive s7 ap4 blast, hellstorm s6 ap3 flamer, a bunch of bigshootas on a 12 HP superheavy walker platform with easy access to invul save and repairs that gives fearless for every ork nearby - all for just ~550 pts.

Orks be cheezy, mon

 Btothefnrock wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Btothefnrock wrote:
Surprised sternguard aren't on the list...

Because they have been surpassed. And so many players throw them away, so they never get to shoot much.

^Agree with that last part...


But if you use them as an actual fire base unit vs. ruining them with combi-weapons and becoming a suicide squad, they are pretty darn nasty.

Oh, you have all bikes? I'll wound on 2's (or use the Ignore Cover bolts if you are Ravenwing with that dumb 2+ rerollable)
Really need to kill some 3+ save guys? We have AP 3 round (with Imperial Fists tactics, the gets hot is nerfed pretty hard)
And the Ap 4 30" range shots can be good when you are far back, or see something with 4+ save (not often honestly, lol)

Are they the best shooting unit in the game? No. But I still think they are in the top 10 if used correctly. (I'm still blown away that people use them for combi weapons- just use a command squad!!!)

I try, but scatbikes shoot them in the face. Or the gravstar pays them a visit. People use overwhelming firepower in their lists just so squads like Sternguard can't do any work.

I wouldn't put anything apart from Grav Centurions or Skyhammer Devestators in a top ten from the marine codex. But if I was giving an honorary mention to a unit I'd give it to Legion Of The Damned ahead of sternguard, the ability to put inbuilt ignore cover on almost any standard imperial weapon is pretty sweet.

If only they could take Grav-Cannons and Gravguns..

Unfortunately they're a balanced unit, huh?

True, I guess someone was thinking that day and figured ignore cover grav would be just a tad filthy.

Then the intern wrote up the hunters eye for 20pts and ruined all that!

ORKZ ALWAYS CHEAPEST PPM.!!! WAAAGG!

If only the Dark Angels still had the dakka banner......

Legion heavy support squad, volkite culverins,45" 40 str6 ap5 deflagrate shots, maybe not the best, but pretty good.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
If only the Dark Angels still had the dakka banner......

You ain't kidding there, bro. That and Obsec Ravenwing are the main good things we lost from the last book. The new one is an improvement in just about every other way, though.

1. Scatbikes
2. Gravturions
3. Crisis Suits (supported by MSSS, CnC & PEN chip)
4. Wyverns
5. KMK
6. Wraithguard
7. Thunderfire Cannons
8. Kataphrons
9. Heldrake
10. Flyrant

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
1. Scatbikes
2. Gravturions
3. Crisis Suits (supported by MSSS, CnC & PEN chip)
4. Wyverns
5. KMK
6. Wraithguard
7. Thunderfire Cannons
8. Kataphrons
9. Heldrake
10. Flyrant

Asides from the Heldrake, this is actually an excellent list.

 jy2 wrote:
Here is my list of the Top 10 Best Shooting unit in the game today:


Jy2's Top 10 Best Shooters

One term you will hear a lot from me is the cost per shot ratio (notated as pts/shot). Basically, what this means is how many points does it cost per shot for that unit. With this ratio, the lower it is, the better.

1. Scatterbikes. The most cost-efficient non-vehicle shooting unit in the game at 6.75 pts/shot and they pump out high quality BS4, S6 shots. It doesn’t hurt that the scatbike is also probably the fastest, ObSec troop unit in the game as well. If even one of these suckers survive, it can mean the difference between Victory or Defeat as it turbo-boosts onto an objective just before the game ends.

2. Devastator Centurions. One of the scariest shooters in the game. The centurion with Hurricane Bolters can pump out an incredible 7.27 pts/shot at Rapid-fire range, and they are threat to both infantry and tanks. Devastator Centurions are the main reason why Imperial armies have arguably the deadliest shooting deathstar build in the game.

3. Broadsides with High-Yield Missile Pods and Interceptor. One of the best shooters in the game on a highly durable platform, the Missile-side puts out an amazing 8.75 pts/shot. Moreover, they are highly accurate with Twin-linked shooting and with the help of Markerlights, can be even more accurate and deadly (with Ignores Cover). Also, Broadsides are one of 2 units in my Top 10 that can shoot you when you come in from Reserves. Their main drawbacks are the lack of any Invulnerable saves (against armies that can Ignore Cover), low Leadership that makes them vulnerable to LD-based attacks and the fact that they are not Relentless (unless you take a specific Tau formation).

4. Sicaran Battle Tank (Forgeworld). One of the best tanks in the Imperial arsenal, the Sicaran is also one of its best shooters as well. With Heavy Bolter sponsons, it puts out an impressive 10.33 pts/shot. But what makes it stand out even more is that 6 of those shots are Twin-linked, S6 Rending shots that ignore Jink saves. It’s also an incredibly resilient tank at AV F13/S12/R12 and can be made even harder to kill with some upgrades (Ignore meltas, 4+ save vs Haywire). It can be both anti-infantry (with Heavy Bolter sponsons) or anti-tank (with Lascannon sponsons and the Tank Hunter upgrade). Lastly, it is a fast vehicle so can move up to 6” and still fire all of its guns.

5. Flyrant with TL-Brainleech Devourers and Electroshock Grubs. While this guy isn’t the most incredible shooter (20 pts/shot makes him the least efficient shooter on my list), he is a reliable shooter with 12 Twin-linked BS4 S6 shots. Also, he is both a threat to infantry as well as other tanks (thanks to his Haywire template as well). But what makes the flyrant stand-out is all the little things he does. He is a huge force-multiplier for the Tyranid army with his Synapse and Psychic buffs. He can hit you no matter where you hide thanks to him being a Flying MC. He can hit both ground units and other flyers with equal accuracy. Finally, he is fairly durable due to being a FMC with the potential for FNP as well. While his shots are expensive, his accuracy and ability to hit both ground units and flyers helps to make his shooting actually more efficient than other units on this list with much lower costs/shot ratios.

6. Riptide. The riptide by itself is a respectable shooter. When it Novas up with its Heavy Burst Cannons, it can put out up to decent shooting at 11.25 pts/shot. And while not the most accurate shooter, its shooting becomes much more dangerous with the help of Markerlights. But what really sets this guy apart is twofold. First is its flexibility. You name it, the riptide can do it. Need Skyfire? Done. Need a large blast? You got it. Trouble with infantry? He can handle them. Tanks also. He can also shoot you when you come in from Reserves. Secondly is his durability. T6, 5W with a 2+ save and potentially 3++ Invulnerable with FNP? This guy is resilient as heck. Finally, he can shot you without needing to see you and is very mobile to boot.

7. Vulture (Forgeworld). An incredible shooter at 6.74 pts/shot on a fairly durable, AV12 flyer platform. Highly accurate as well with 20 Twin-linked shots as well as Strafing Run. Add Vector Dancer on top of that and this flyer becomes one of the more maneuverable flyers. You can’t really hide from it. It’s only drawbacks are that it is purely for anti-infantry and experienced players can take advantage of its flight path to avoid perhaps a turn of fire.

8. Warp Spiders. While these guys don’t put out a whole lot of shots, the shots that they do put out are quality shots. And at 9.5 pts/shot, they’re damn dangerous as well. With the potential for BS5 from formations and S6 shots that wound based on Initiative and Rending, these guys can hurt infantry, MC’s and light tanks as well. Their range may be short, but with a 2D6+6” Movement, Battle Focus and then a 2D6” Assault move, these guys can get into firing positions fairly easily and then get out of retalitorial strikes. And then there’s this annoying ability of theirs called Flickerjump….

9. Venom. Yes, the lowly Venom is actually a really good shooter. With 12 shots and at BS4, it is actually the most efficient shooting unit in the game at a blistering 5.42 pts/shot! Moreover, they come with a 5++ Invulnerable save, are pretty darn fast and can be ObSec as well. Their downsides? They are fragile and they can’t do anything to other tanks. But in terms of pure anti-infantry firepower, nothing beats the efficiency of the Venom.

10. Wyvern. This is the only blast-based unit in my Top 10. While one-dimensional, not much in the game beats the ability of the Wyvern to shred mass infantry and certainly nothing beats at its cost level. With the ability to Ignore Cover and re-roll wounds, the Wyvern is the best infantry horde-killer in the game currently for the price.

Honorable Mentions:

Black Knights – Resilient bastards with good assault capability and Twin-linked rapid-fire plasmas standard.

Crisis Suits – High firepower and good flexibility but somewhat expensive and fragile.

Fire Raptor – Very good shooting (11.84 pts/shot) on a very resilient flyer platform.

Kataphrons – The most efficient pure AP2 shooting in the game for their price.

Stormsurge – The best shooting Lord of War for under 400-pts.

War Walkers – 7.5 pts/shot for S6 BS4 shooting.

Ok, I have revised my Top 10 Shooty Units using a more advance formula based off of my Cost/shot ratio. My new ratio, which I will call the Weighted Cost/shot (or Pts/shot) Efficiency, will incorporate other factors into the shooting efficiency of a unit. Factors like how durable a unit is, how deadly is its shooting and how maneuverable the unit is. Without further ado, here are just the rankings. I will probably write in a future article about how the formula works:


Top 10 Best Shooters:

1. Scatterbikes - 3.44

2. Grav Centurions - 3.78

3. Vulture - 4.07

4. Broadsides w/HYMP - 4.20

5. Warp Spiders (from the Aspect Host) - 4.54

6. Sicaran Battle Tank w/HB sponsons - 4.56

7. Riptide w/Heavy Burst Cannon - 4.71

8. War Walkers w/Dual Scatter Lasers - 4.73

9. Punisher w/Pask + Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 4.76

10. Dakka Flyrant w/Egrubs - 5.40


Honorable Mentions:

Tomb Blade w/TL-Gauss - 5.06

Ork Warbikers - 5.67

Wyvern - 5.70

Vyper w/Dual Shuri-cannons - 5.75

Venom - 6.23

Kataphrons w/Grav - 6.88

A Thunderfire Cannon needs to be on the list. It's more survivable than a Wyvern, longer range and can damage armor 12 or less. A unit of 3 just puts out ridiculous firepower and with 12 templates you can walk the small blast templates into several units.

DarthDiggler wrote:
A Thunderfire Cannon needs to be on the list. It's more survivable than a Wyvern, longer range and can damage armor 12 or less. A unit of 3 just puts out ridiculous firepower and with 12 templates you can walk the small blast templates into several units.

I can do the calculations for a TFC, but since I don't have my book with me, can anyone tell me 2 things:

1. BS of the Techmarine with the TFC.

2. Are the blasts Heavy or Assault weapons?

 jy2 wrote:
1. BS of the Techmarine with the TFC.

BS 5

 jy2 wrote:
2. Are the blasts Heavy or Assault weapons?

All 3 shooting modalities are heavy 4 barrage blast.

When you were calculating the weighted points per shot for the tank commander punisher, were you doing them for the special character pask (rending etc) or the vanilla BS 4 command tank? Additionally, were you also calculating heavy bolter sponsons or just the main gun?

Ether wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
1. BS of the Techmarine with the TFC.

BS 5

 jy2 wrote:
2. Are the blasts Heavy or Assault weapons?

All 3 shooting modalities are heavy 4 barrage blast.

Thanks.

When you were calculating the weighted points per shot for the tank commander punisher, were you doing them for the special character pask (rending etc) or the vanilla BS 4 command tank? Additionally, were you also calculating heavy bolter sponsons or just the main gun?

That is just for the Commander and includes Heavy Bolter Sponsons.

With Pask, it actually comes out to being slightly less efficient (5.06 w/Pask) due mainly to to higher cost (40-pts more). Now it can be argued that With Pask is better due to the intangibles (more flexibility in what it can hurt), but just from a purely numbers perspective, the Commander is slightly more efficient.

 jy2 wrote:

With Pask, it actually comes out to being slightly less efficient (5.06 w/Pask) due mainly to to higher cost (40-pts more). Now it can be argued that With Pask is better due to the intangibles (more flexibility in what it can hurt), but just from a purely numbers perspective, the Commander is slightly more efficient.

Is that even with Pask getting Preferred Enemy (assuming Warlord), and rerolling all failed armour-penetration rolls?

 jy2 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
A Thunderfire Cannon needs to be on the list. It's more survivable than a Wyvern, longer range and can damage armor 12 or less. A unit of 3 just puts out ridiculous firepower and with 12 templates you can walk the small blast templates into several units.

I can do the calculations for a TFC, but since I don't have my book with me, can anyone tell me 2 things:

1. BS of the Techmarine with the TFC.

2. Are the blasts Heavy or Assault weapons?

Ok, so with the TFC, here are the pros and cons:

Pros:

Barrage
Blast
Long-ranged
Ignores Cover
Toughness 7
Multi-wound

Cons:

Slow (Cannot move and shoot due to the TFC being Heavy weapons)
Poor Anti-tank if using the Ignores Cover shot.
S5 only if using the Ignores Cover shot.


Intangibles: (Not counted in the actual calculations, but can be considered to move the unit up or down in the rankings.)

Can "walk" the blasts to hit other units with multiple TFC's.
After the TFC dies, you can use the techmarine as a separate entity.
Techmarine is actually a threat to lesser units in assault.


On my rankings, the TFC is an 8.4.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

With Pask, it actually comes out to being slightly less efficient (5.06 w/Pask) due mainly to to higher cost (40-pts more). Now it can be argued that With Pask is better due to the intangibles (more flexibility in what it can hurt), but just from a purely numbers perspective, the Commander is slightly more efficient.

Is that even with Pask getting Preferred Enemy (assuming Warlord), and rerolling all failed armour-penetration rolls?

That is assuming re-roll AP. However, with regards to PE, is that his actual Warlord Trait or does he randomly generate one? Also, is it PE (everything)?

 jy2 wrote:

That is assuming re-roll AP. However, with regards to PE, is that his actual Warlord Trait or does he randomly generate one? Also, is it PE (everything)?

Preferred Enemy is his warlord trait. You pick an army at the beginning of the game and he gets preferred enemy against everything from that army.

 vipoid wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

That is assuming re-roll AP. However, with regards to PE, is that his actual Warlord Trait or does he randomly generate one? Also, is it PE (everything)?

Preferred Enemy is his warlord trait. You pick an army at the beginning of the game and he gets preferred enemy against everything from that army.

Ok, I will recalculate his ratings with PE considered.


Pros:

AV14
Prefered Enemy
Rending
Re-roll Armor Pen

Cons:

Slow (Cannot move flat-out, thus potentially affecting its range or getting away from assault threats)

Intangibles: (Not counted in the actual calculations, but can be considered to move the unit up or down in the rankings.)

Immune to small-arms fire
Can be one-shotted with Melta
Needs to be taken as a squadron of tanks


Punisher w/Pask = 4.76

I will replace the Commander's Punisher w/Pask's Punisher.

How are Tomb Blades not on these lists? For 20 pts it's a S5 AP4 TL Rapid Fire Guass weapon on a jet bike (with Necron goodies) with ignores cover?

Ffyllotek wrote:
How are Tomb Blades not on these lists? For 20 pts it's a S5 AP4 TL Rapid Fire Guass weapon on a jet bike (with Necron goodies) with ignores cover?

Its because these ranking purely on firepower and not other aspects, such as" Reanimation protocol and jetbike type

Ffyllotek wrote:
How are Tomb Blades not on these lists? For 20 pts it's a S5 AP4 TL Rapid Fire Guass weapon on a jet bike (with Necron goodies) with ignores cover?

Tomb Blade (as configured above):

Pros:

Gauss
Ignores Cover
Fast (Jetbike)
Toughness 5
Reanimation Protocols

Cons:

Rapid-fire (less shots at 12-24" range)
4+ Armor (In my scale, 3+ is the base)
Poor Anti-tank (Any gun S5 or less)

Intangibles: (Not counted in the actual calculations, but can be considered to move the unit up or down in the rankings.)

A threat to objectives with their super-speed (though not ObSec).
Awful in close-combat but can tarpit non cc-units.


Tomb Blade = 5.06


However, I'd still rank the Flyrant over the Tomb Blade because the flyrant has better intangibles.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
How are Tomb Blades not on these lists? For 20 pts it's a S5 AP4 TL Rapid Fire Guass weapon on a jet bike (with Necron goodies) with ignores cover?

Its because these ranking purely on firepower and not other aspects, such as" Reanimation protocol and jetbike type

My rankings formula actually take into account the "other aspects" as long as they help increase a units shootiness. This includes the quality of the firepower, range, the durability of the unit and the mobility of the unit.

how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them

 jy2 wrote:

Tomb Blade (as configured above):

Poor Anti-tank (Any gun S5 or less)

against av14 or t10, TBs gauss is equal to s8
against av13 or t9, TBs gauss is equal to s7
against av12 or t8, TBs gauss is equal to s6

I was shooting my TBs at an av13 Buzzgob Big Mek Stompa this last weekend. They didn't feel like poor anti-tank.

 jy2 wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
How are Tomb Blades not on these lists? For 20 pts it's a S5 AP4 TL Rapid Fire Guass weapon on a jet bike (with Necron goodies) with ignores cover?

Tomb Blade (as configured above):

Pros:

Gauss
Ignores Cover
Fast (Jetbike)
Toughness 5
Reanimation Protocols

Cons:

Rapid-fire (less shots at 12-24" range)
4+ Armor (In my scale, 3+ is the base)
Poor Anti-tank (Any gun S5 or less)

Intangibles: (Not counted in the actual calculations, but can be considered to move the unit up or down in the rankings.)

A threat to objectives with their super-speed (though not ObSec).
Awful in close-combat but can tarpit non cc-units.


Tomb Blade = 5.06

Don't forget that they can take an armor upgrade for +3 armor, have twin linked shooting, and every 6 is auto wounding and glancing so they are a threat to any vehicle.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them

I would like to know how a similar setup would rank with the IH chapter tactics.

 NorseSig wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them

I would like to know how a similar setup would rank with the IH chapter tactics.

can they get relentless?

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them

I would like to know how a similar setup would rank with the IH chapter tactics.

can they get relentless?

Yes. They can take bikes to get it. Toughness 5. with 4+ FNP due to their chapter tactics and apothecary. Though there is still a debate weather the apothecary can take a grav gun too.