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 welshhoppo wrote:
And it might not be the central pillar of Christmas Day itself, but it's damn important when it comes to the christmastide and the celebration of the twelve days of Christmas. Childrenmass is celebrated on the 28th of December. Which is the date when Herod supposed killed all the children in Bethlehem.

So I wasn't wrong, and your statement "Christmas is about a middle eastern family fleeing from a tyrannical leader." is in fact incorrect. In fact the Flight is so separate that it has it's own day of celebration. Glad we finally cleared that up.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Except that isn't my solution. I believe quite strongly in the idea of sovereignty, in that a country and their people should be in charge of what they do. It's why I don't like the EU in its current form, I want it broken up and made into something better, where countries can agree to be in a group and have similar thoughts and ideas, not simply forcing them to play ball because we signed up to something completely different nearly half a century ago. Greece was running itself into the ground and lying to its people, the situation that happened to them earlier this year changed from " we will accept no cuts. Elect me and I guarantee it." To "we are accepting the cuts and I'm leaving, tough luck." Maybe with a federal system, someone could have gone. "Hmm, I think Greece is lying about its financial situation, we'd better have a look". And done something about it before it turned into the mess it became.

If you want to ask someone on what a Federal Europe would look like, wait for someone who wants that to explain it. I'm not fond of the idea, maybe in a few decades when the world has started to cool down again and we can actually get along with our neighbours without having trust issues.

It is your solution. You clearly said "certain countries should not be allowed to run themselves". When asked to give specifics then you started to back peddle that you actually do believe in sovereignty, mourned that people do not trust government, but said that a Federal Europe should have stepped in to run Greece. So you believe that nations should be sovereign but expect the EU to step in. There is an inherent flaw in your position.

What? I didn't say that a federal Europe should have stepped in to sort it out. I said that if Greece was part of a federal Europe then the federal system would have been able to help before it went as far as it did. It's an entirely theoretical model which has nothing to do with my own personal viewpoint. I just have this amazing ability to see where other people are coming from and then being able to work an idea from that and see how such an idea would be able to work out. It doesn't mean that that is my own viewpoint.

The people running Greece should not have been in charge. Simple as Larry. It absolutely stank of corruption that was clear to see from a mile away. Who runs a country's? Well the electorate do. They elect the politicians, and then they run the country. Something that they completely failed to do. So they shouldn't have been in a position to run their own country, someone else should have done it. Namely another elected party, maybe a more trust worthy one. But that's their choice, if they want to drive themslces into the dust again, that's their problem but don't expect Europe to bail them out again.


And whatever, if you want to believe that Christmas is a single day then it isn't my concern. But the flight from Egypt is an important part of it and it directly relates to the situation that we are living in today. Which was my point. People are complaining about refugees coming from warzones, yet Christ and his family became a bunch of refugees chased from their homeland and had to escape to another country. And it happened at Christmas during the Christmastide. It was probably the most important thing that happened to them, because if they had stayed he would have been killed. No Christianity and maybe we would be celebrating Sol Invictous birthday on December 25th instead.

 welshhoppo wrote:
What? I didn't say that a federal Europe should have stepped in to sort it out. I said that if Greece was part of a federal Europe then the federal system would have been able to help before it went as far as it did. It's an entirely theoretical model which has nothing to do with my own personal viewpoint. I just have this amazing ability to see where other people are coming from and then being able to work an idea from that and see how such an idea would be able to work out. It doesn't mean that that is my own viewpoint.

So your answer is loss of sovereignty.
When should this transition to an extra-territorial government running them take place?
How should the transition be achieved?
Why can these countries not run themselves?
Is there a process that allows control to return back to the country, or will they forever be run by this extra-territorial government?

 welshhoppo wrote:
The people running Greece should not have been in charge. Simple as Larry. It absolutely stank of corruption that was clear to see from a mile away. Who runs a country's? Well the electorate do. They elect the politicians, and then they run the country. Something that they completely failed to do. So they shouldn't have been in a position to run their own country, someone else should have done it. Namely another elected party, maybe a more trust worthy one. But that's their choice, if they want to drive themslces into the dust again, that's their problem but don't expect Europe to bail them out again.

But that contradicts your claim that "Greece is an excellent example about why certain countries should not be allowed to run themselves."

 welshhoppo wrote:
And whatever, if you want to believe that Christmas is a single day then it isn't my concern.

It is, December 25th

 welshhoppo wrote:
But the flight from Egypt is an important part of it and it directly relates to the situation that we are living in today. Which was my point. People are complaining about refugees coming from warzones, yet Christ and his family became a bunch of refugees chased from their homeland and had to escape to another country. And it happened at Christmas during the Christmastide. It was probably the most important thing that happened to them, because if they had stayed he would have been killed. No Christianity and maybe we would be celebrating Sol Invictous birthday on December 25th instead.

Important, yes, But that does not mean "Christmas is about a middle eastern family fleeing from a tyrannical leader."

Did Christ and his family share a religion with fanatics that wanted to overthrow Egypt and install a theocracy in its place?
Do you believe that foreign policy should be dictated on the basis of scriptures? If so how does that work with the separation of church and state? In a multicultural country what religious texts should be allowed to inform foreign policy? Are there any other areas of life that you would like to see religion used by a government to make decisions?

If it helps the nativity is a fairy story so who cares.

A federal Europe on the otherhand is a very real possibility and not one that the majority of Brits will vote for. Unless there is a very clear statement that British concern is not to be arbitrarily pushed aside then I can't see a referendum returning anything other than a big feth off to Europe.

William Hague warning that a Brexit could see the end of the UK.

I very much hope so

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
William Hague warning that a Brexit could see the end of the UK.

I very much hope so

Will the UK crumble into the sea or something?

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
William Hague warning that a Brexit could see the end of the UK.

I very much hope so

Will the UK crumble into the sea or something?

Nobody likes a smart-ass

I am of course referring to God's own Country, Scotland, going it alone.

Going it alone by splitting off from the United Kingdom and becoming part of a European Union, you mean...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Going it alone by splitting off from the United Kingdom and becoming part of a European Union, you mean...

If it were up to me, I'd have an independent Scotland out of the UK and the EU, something along the Swiss or Norway model.

Is this bigger or smaller than any of the labour 'civil wars' going on? Or about the same and blown out of proportion

It's probably worse. The Tories have been conflicted about Europe for decades.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Going it alone by splitting off from the United Kingdom and becoming part of a European Union, you mean...

If it were up to me, I'd have an independent Scotland out of the UK and the EU, something along the Swiss or Norway model.

Luckily for all involved, odds are there will not be another referendum for another fifty odd years I would bet.

I always find the parallels between the Scottish Independence movement and the British Exit movement hilarious, especially given the usual contempt each side holds the other in.

 Ketara wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Going it alone by splitting off from the United Kingdom and becoming part of a European Union, you mean...

If it were up to me, I'd have an independent Scotland out of the UK and the EU, something along the Swiss or Norway model.

Luckily for all involved, odds are there will not be another referendum for another fifty odd years I would bet.

I'll take that bet any day of the week.

Although the Scotts have been in a relatively unchanged union (except for where they now have additional powers to those they had under the original agreement) for quite a long time, where the UK is on the brink of being pulled into something very different from what it originally signed up for.

So yeah, totally the same except for where they are not

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
True to form, the Tories reveal their true colours - they just can't help themselves

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/20/tories-brexit-liam-fox-eu-david-cameron

Liam Fox's declaration of war is important as he is respected within the Tory Party, and he's long been seen as the 'mouthpiece' of other senior Tories who hold similar views.
Make no mistake, this is a clear and present danger to David Cameron, because if he tries to crack down on the Euro-sceptics, there will be a bloodbath, but if allows the cabinet a free vote, he'll be a laughing stock all over Europe, and will probably encourage a massive split down the middle of the Tory party.
Fox's timing is interesting as well. It's the Christmas break, and Tory MPs will be away from London and the scrutiny of the party whips, and back home in the shires. Plenty of time for the rebels to meet up and plot their next move...
I said months ago during the general election thread that Cameron should enjoy his victory, because it would be a short honeymoon.
I lived through the John Major years - the last time the Tories tore themselves apart over Europe, and it was not a pretty sight...
One advantage the Tories have this time around is that Labour are pretty much useless, and beset with their own in-fighting, and so they're unlikely to capitalise on this, unlike Tony Blair did.
What does everybody else think?

Hysterical OP.

So you 'lived through' the Major years, you make it sound like a era of Stalinist purges.

As for your 'declaration of war', what you should say is that Cameron has given his party an open vote. Which is quite democratic of him actually. There is nothing snister about hat, in fact its refreshing that the party hip is not eing used on so critical an issue.

Besides as many have pointed out to you, the people will decide in a referendum.

So you 'lived through' the Major years, you make it sound like a era of Stalinist purges.

We had a Prime Minister preaching family values...who then promptly had an affair with his health secretary. To be fair, he wasn't the only one.

We had a Tory government held to ransom by Unionist MPs from Northern Ireland in order to secure a majority, at a time when the links between Unionist MPs and Loyalist Terror groups were highly questionable.

We were made a laughing stock of Europe with the Black Wednesday Debacle

We witnessed the Tory party oust one of its most successful leaders in his history

and we had a country divided by poll tax riots.

No, it wasn't 1930s Russia, but it wasn't exactly a golden age either. It was pretty shambolic.

Which is quite democratic of him actually

A man with a gun to his head doesn't have much of a choice in the matter

Besides as many have pointed out to you, the people will decide in a referendum.

If the British people suspect that game has been rigged beforehand, there may be trouble.

A few months ago, the Tories, at the behest of Cameron, changed the rules on Purdah for the EU referendum. Many Tory backbenchers were upset, seeing this as an unfair advantage for the In campaign.

Ironically enough, SNP MPs voted with Tory backbenchers against this change...

Major's affair was before he was PM.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

So you 'lived through' the Major years, you make it sound like a era of Stalinist purges.

We had a Prime Minister preaching family values...who then promptly had an affair with his health secretary. To be fair, he wasn't the only one.

Ministerial affairs are not an issue, unless Soviet moles are involved. Then its a fair issue.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

We had a Tory government held to ransom by Unionist MPs from Northern Ireland in order to secure a majority, at a time when the links between Unionist MPs and Loyalist Terror groups were highly questionable.

Held to ransom? What are you on.
Besides it was John Major who set up the peace process, Blair stepped in to take the credit for the work done in th previous years very shortly after he took office.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

We were made a laughing stock of Europe with the Black Wednesday Debacle

Actually Major made good choices there. The Tories took a short term hit but bgetting out of the ERM was a solid long term decision. It kept us out of the Euro and related problems.
John Major was unafraid to make decisions which were immediately unpopular but had longer term benefits, we havent had anyone working on a long term agenda since, and it shows.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

We witnessed the Tory party oust one of its most successful leaders in his history

and we had a country divided by poll tax riots.

Both true, but no government is perfect. You need more that sticks.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

No, it wasn't 1930s Russia, but it wasn't exactly a golden age either. It was pretty shambolic.

Major didnt have the spin on his side.
But what did the spin yield:
Blair, and a decade of heaped BS on BS.

All in all Major did a good job.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

A man with a gun to his head doesn't have much of a choice in the matter

Where is the gun?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Besides as many have pointed out to you, the people will decide in a referendum.

If the British people suspect that game has been rigged beforehand, there may be trouble.

Rigged? Thgis isnt Central America. Your tinfoil hat needs an extra polishing today.

I actually think Major was a pretty good prime minister from various points of view, but it is worth remembering that Black Wednesday happened before he became PM, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer. He didn't cunningly take us out of a stupid, unsustainable system so much as fight desperately to keep us in one that had been joined by the Conservative as a matter of national pride (strong currency, etc) until the Pound was squeezes out by financial forces.

In the process George Soros became a billionaire and my mortgage payments practically doubled thanks to the Bank of England base rate being set to 15% by the Treasury.

The Referendum will be rigged by the choice of questions on it, as was the PR referendum a couple of years ago, and the Australian Republican referendum before that (I don't remember the year.)