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 gmaleron wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
Lusiphur wrote:
Out of curiosity, what rule are you trying to use from the Supplement that is not covered (or nerfed maybe) in Mont'ka?

I can't remember anything that would make a difference in a game.

I'd guess taking members of the Eight (other than Farsight) without taking all of them (which basically means you'll almost never take them).


That is one of them, also in the Farsight Enclaves Supplement it says Riptides can take Signature Systems like the Earth Caste Pilot Array which was designed for them. In the Mont'Ka book it doesn't say wether they can or cannot take Signture Systems so it leaves it up for debate. Personally I feel that a Signature System that is clearly designed for a particular unit that unit should be allowed to take it despite vague rules, however im doing this to basically avoid that drama. Its not the only reasons however, sometimes I want to just play a normal CAD with my Tau, especially in friendly games.

ECPA is a weird one but there's no debate - Riptides can't unless they're characters. It's either an error or they wanted to keep it for O'Vesa exclusively.

What's stopping you from taking a CAD with FSE using Mont'ka?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/21 19:56:03


 
   
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The only reason the FSE Supplement is still being sold is because of the Fluff, which is really good and not all of it is in the Mont'ka.

But rules wise no, Codex Tau Empire + Mont'ka is where it's at.
   
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 Scott-S6 wrote:
ECPA is a weird one but there's no debate - Riptides can't unless they're characters. It's either an error or they wanted to keep it for O'Vesa exclusively.
What's stopping you from taking a CAD with FSE using Mont'ka?

Trust me its an Error, makes no sense to have a Signature System that benefits a particular unit and then have the unit be unable to take said Signature System. As far as im concerned from reading over my Mont'ka book it doesn't talk about running a standard CAD at all, it only goes into detail the Dawn Blade Contingent with rules for the FSE to be run in it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/21 20:49:12


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 gmaleron wrote:

As far as im concerned from reading over my Mont'ka book it doesn't talk about running a standard CAD at all, it only goes into detail the Dawn Blade Contingent with rules for the FSE to be run in it.



It says that you can make any formation or detachment an FSE detachment. That gives you crisis suit as troops and access to the FSE sig systems and warlord traits. Read P196 again.

If you wish, you can say that any Tau Detachment or Formation in your army is from the Farsight Enclaves.
Formations and Detachments from the Farsight Enclaves use the Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives from these pages instead of those in Codex: Tau Empire, and also have the special rules below.


So take a CAD, designate as FSE and you're away.


 gmaleron wrote:

Trust me its an Error, makes no sense to have a Signature System that benefits a particular unit and then have the unit be unable to take said Signature System.

It would be clearly an error if it couldn't be used at all but O'Vesa is a riptide character and has it. Given the fluff that talks about how "it speaks to the bond between the two that he allows any other caste the great honour of piloting a battlesuit, much less a powerful XV104 Riptide" why would you be able to have other earth caste riptide pilots? I'm not convinced that it is an error.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/12/21 22:28:48


 
   
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 Scott-S6 wrote:
 gmaleron wrote:

As far as im concerned from reading over my Mont'ka book it doesn't talk about running a standard CAD at all, it only goes into detail the Dawn Blade Contingent with rules for the FSE to be run in it.



It says that you can make any formation or detachment an FSE detachment. That gives you crisis suit as troops and access to the FSE sig systems and warlord traits. Read P196 again.

If you wish, you can say that any Tau Detachment or Formation in your army is from the Farsight Enclaves.
Formations and Detachments from the Farsight Enclaves use the Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives from these pages instead of those in Codex: Tau Empire, and also have the special rules below.


So take a CAD, designate as FSE and you're away.


 gmaleron wrote:

Trust me its an Error, makes no sense to have a Signature System that benefits a particular unit and then have the unit be unable to take said Signature System.

It would be clearly an error if it couldn't be used at all but O'Vesa is a riptide character and has it. Given the fluff that talks about how "it speaks to the bond between the two that he allows any other caste the great honour of piloting a battlesuit, much less a powerful XV104 Riptide" why would you be able to have other earth caste riptide pilots? I'm not convinced that it is an error.


Come on... use some common sense lol. They wouldn't give it a point value of 30 points and allow it to be taken as a signature system if Riptides shouldn't be allowed to take it. They would have just given it to O'vesa and not put it in the Sig Sys. It is clearly an error.

ECPA's main rule is specific to riptides only.
Riptides could take it in the previous codex
ECPA is exactly the same in this codex
Its obvious they made a mistake in not allowing riptides to equip it in this codex.

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Cobleskill

Myself, and I am certain many others would like to say that this is an error.

However. . .

the faqs were recently updated, and this was not fixed.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html

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 carldooley wrote:
Myself, and I am certain many others would like to say that this is an error.

However. . .

the faqs were recently updated, and this was not fixed.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html


lol that means absolutely NOTHING. Essentially nothing was updated in ANY codex (i believe a total of TWO things amongst ALL codexes)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 07:45:41


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Cobleskill

notredameguy10 wrote:
Come on... use some common sense lol. They wouldn't give it a point value of 30 points and allow it to be taken as a signature system if Riptides shouldn't be allowed to take it. They would have just given it to O'vesa and not put it in the Sig Sys. It is clearly an error.

ECPA's main rule is specific to riptides only.
Riptides could take it in the previous codex
ECPA is exactly the same in this codex
Its obvious they made a mistake in not allowing riptides to equip it in this codex.


notredameguy10 wrote:
lol that means absolutely NOTHING. Essentially nothing was updated in ANY codex (i believe a total of TWO things amongst ALL codexes)

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notredameguy10 wrote:

Come on... use some common sense lol. They wouldn't give it a point value of 30 points and allow it to be taken as a signature system if Riptides shouldn't be allowed to take it. They would have just given it to O'vesa and not put it in the Sig Sys. It is clearly an error.

If there was a stated points cost for O'vesa including the ECPA then you might have a point but there isn't - so ECPA had to be given a points value so that you could build O'vesa.

Not mention - how does making it a signature system (which no riptide other than O'vesa can access) indicate that they want it to be available to all riptides? Surely it indicates the opposite?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 12:35:46


 
   
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 Scott-S6 wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:

Come on... use some common sense lol. They wouldn't give it a point value of 30 points and allow it to be taken as a signature system if Riptides shouldn't be allowed to take it. They would have just given it to O'vesa and not put it in the Sig Sys. It is clearly an error.

If there was a stated points cost for O'vesa including the ECPA then you might have a point but there isn't - so ECPA had to be given a points value so that you could build O'vesa.

Not mention - how does making it a signature system (which no riptide other than O'vesa can access) indicate that they want it to be available to all riptides? Surely it indicates the opposite?


Beat me to the punch! I agree, no points listed for O'Vesa, therefore you need the listed system and points cost in order to properly make your list with O'Vesa in it.

I am going with the impression they wanted to make the ECPA more rare, and another reason why you should $$$$ for all the parts to build your "Eight" formation to bring one.

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As it stands, OP, you're arguing for a very specific binary answer when the question isn't binary at all. Even if you're technically correct and the FSE book is still good in leu of Mont'Ka by strict interpretation of the text presented in all books involved, the actual letter of the rule is that what the TO, store owner, or collective gaming community says goes, goes.

My local GW store was split right down the middle as to whether the FSE book was even permitted after Kauyon dropped but before Mont"Ka, and the tourney being organized at the time elected to ban the FSE book before the details to Kauyon were known (in anticipation of there being conflicts that ended up not happening)

Also, perhaps someone can help me out here. Where exactly does it say you can take an ECPA on a Riptide? I have both the new and old relevant books here and I don't see it.

   
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 Captain Joystick wrote:
Also, perhaps someone can help me out here. Where exactly does it say you can take an ECPA on a Riptide? I have both the new and old relevant books here and I don't see it.


In FSE: Supplement, it states "characters in FSE may take sig systems. RIPTIDES ALSO HAVE ACCESS"
In Montka: "characters in FSE may take sig systems"

It is the leaving out that Riptides also have access that makes it RAW that out of Montka riptides cannot take ECPA; O'Vesa can but only in the Eight formation, again out of Montka.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 16:27:07


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Cool RaW FSE supplement is still legal. RaW FSE Supplement (like all 6th Ed Supplements) doesn't work as there is no way of making any given detachment a FSE detachment without using the Mont'ka rules.

Mont'ka clearly updates the FSE supplement and thus replaces it. Much like when the Assassins can subsumed into Codex Grey Knights (and later separated). If you want to play RaW games you can't puck and choose which RaW applies and which doesn't.

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 FlingitNow wrote:
RaW FSE Supplement (like all 6th Ed Supplements) doesn't work as there is no way of making any given detachment a FSE detachment without using the Mont'ka rules.


Just be careful in this thread throwing that around some people will lash out. But to correct you.. Only Iyanden has really been completely 100% removed. All the SM supplements GW outright said were fine. FSE is only questionable because
1) GW hasn't removed it completely from its store.
2) GW hasn't said it was ok to use, in lieu of montka

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East Coast, USA

Seems like the main issue is that it's still for sale directly from Games Workshop. If FSE had gone out of print when Mont'ka came out, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

I would consider the fact that it's still for sale a passive allowance to use the rules contained therein. Otherwise, we have to question EVERY currently available publication and say that we can't use it unless GW specifically tells us we can... which is clearly a ridiculous thing to do.

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Cobleskill

does anyone still use the X source restrictions when making a list? If 2, then by all means use the FSE supplement and the Tau Codex, but no Mont'ka?

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 Grizzyzz wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
RaW FSE Supplement (like all 6th Ed Supplements) doesn't work as there is no way of making any given detachment a FSE detachment without using the Mont'ka rules.


Just be careful in this thread throwing that around some people will lash out. But to correct you.. Only Iyanden has really been completely 100% removed. All the SM supplements GW outright said were fine. FSE is only questionable because
1) GW hasn't removed it completely from its store.
2) GW hasn't said it was ok to use, in lieu of montka


I was talking RaW. RaW the FSE supplement doesn't work, most people will allow the RaI of being able to designate any TE detachment as a FSE detachment, however with Mont'kas release asking people to adhere to strict RaW (under it doesn't say I can't premise) to allow use of the supplement then jump straight to RaI to try to make it work is a bit rich to say the least.

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 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool RaW FSE supplement is still legal. RaW FSE Supplement (like all 6th Ed Supplements) doesn't work as there is no way of making any given detachment a FSE detachment without using the Mont'ka rules.

How so? If they make a campaign book with Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, would that invalidate Sentinels of Terra and Clan Raccoon? Can you provide and actual quote from the book?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Mont'ka clearly updates the FSE supplement and thus replaces it. Much like when the Assassins can subsumed into Codex Grey Knights (and later separated). If you want to play RaW games you can't puck and choose which RaW applies and which doesn't.

Actually, you CAN pick and choose which RAW applies by using the books them come from, just the cohesiveness must be maintained. Otherwise, Codex: Dark Angels would update Codex: Blood Angels, Space Marines, and Space Wolves for every unit they have in common. If one wants to use the Mont'ka Formations and detachments, they must abide by the Mont'ka's rules and stipulations and changes. FSE doesn't have much of that, so can be run in CAD or AD.

Really, the only person's who determine the legality of a book are the game organizers, friendly or tournament. Whether you want to run all 3rd Edition codices or a 2nd Edition versus Dark Vengeance is all up to them.

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Charistoph wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool RaW FSE supplement is still legal. RaW FSE Supplement (like all 6th Ed Supplements) doesn't work as there is no way of making any given detachment a FSE detachment without using the Mont'ka rules.

How so? If they make a campaign book with Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, would that invalidate Sentinels of Terra and Clan Raccoon? Can you provide and actual quote from the book?


How do you use the FSE supplement? How do you know how to make a detachment into a FSE detachment (thus triggering all the rules in the supplement)?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Mont'ka clearly updates the FSE supplement and thus replaces it. Much like when the Assassins can subsumed into Codex Grey Knights (and later separated). If you want to play RaW games you can't puck and choose which RaW applies and which doesn't.

Actually, you CAN pick and choose which RAW applies by using the books them come from, just the cohesiveness must be maintained. Otherwise, Codex: Dark Angels would update Codex: Blood Angels, Space Marines, and Space Wolves for every unit they have in common. If one wants to use the Mont'ka Formations and detachments, they must abide by the Mont'ka's rules and stipulations and changes. FSE doesn't have much of that, so can be run in CAD or AD.

Really, the only person's who determine the legality of a book are the game organizers, friendly or tournament. Whether you want to run all 3rd Edition codices or a 2nd Edition versus Dark Vengeance is all up to them.


How do you know that you can use a CAD or an AD with the FSE Supplement? I know you can use them with Mont'ka as I have rules for that. What rules are you using to take a CAD or AD using the FSE supplement rules?

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 FlingitNow wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool RaW FSE supplement is still legal. RaW FSE Supplement (like all 6th Ed Supplements) doesn't work as there is no way of making any given detachment a FSE detachment without using the Mont'ka rules.

How so? If they make a campaign book with Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, would that invalidate Sentinels of Terra and Clan Raccoon? Can you provide and actual quote from the book?

How do you use the FSE supplement? How do you know how to make a detachment into a FSE detachment (thus triggering all the rules in the supplement)?

How did you do so before? What has changed to invalidate this previous method?

 FlingitNow wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
Mont'ka clearly updates the FSE supplement and thus replaces it. Much like when the Assassins can subsumed into Codex Grey Knights (and later separated). If you want to play RaW games you can't puck and choose which RaW applies and which doesn't.

Actually, you CAN pick and choose which RAW applies by using the books them come from, just the cohesiveness must be maintained. Otherwise, Codex: Dark Angels would update Codex: Blood Angels, Space Marines, and Space Wolves for every unit they have in common. If one wants to use the Mont'ka Formations and detachments, they must abide by the Mont'ka's rules and stipulations and changes. FSE doesn't have much of that, so can be run in CAD or AD.

Really, the only person's who determine the legality of a book are the game organizers, friendly or tournament. Whether you want to run all 3rd Edition codices or a 2nd Edition versus Dark Vengeance is all up to them.

How do you know that you can use a CAD or an AD with the FSE Supplement? I know you can use them with Mont'ka as I have rules for that. What rules are you using to take a CAD or AD using the FSE supplement rules?

How did I know I can use a CAD or an AD with the FSE Supplement before? What has changed to invalidated this previous method?

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You couldn't use it before RaW but we could agree that the RaI was that you could designate any Tau CAD or AD as a FSE CAD or AD. You are unlikely to gain such a concession now, as you are trying to force an antiRaI strict RaW reading to use the Supplement at all. Essentially you can't have it both ways.

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 FlingitNow wrote:
You couldn't use it before RaW but we could agree that the RaI was that you could designate any Tau CAD or AD as a FSE CAD or AD. You are unlikely to gain such a concession now, as you are trying to force an antiRaI strict RaW reading to use the Supplement at all. Essentially you can't have it both ways.


Sure you can. That's how house rules work. You can do whatever you want.

FSE worked before. FSE is still for sale. In a vacuum, FSE still works. Are we in a vacuum? Yes, because no subsequent publication references FSE or tells us to disregard any or all portions of it.

The fact that Mont'ka has similar rules isn't really relevant to this discussion. If you're building an army/detachment using the rules presented in FSE, use FSE as your reference. If you're building an army/detachment using the rules presented in Mont'ka, use Mont'ka as your reference. This isn't rocket science. Coteaz existed in two publications at the same time. Is it crazy to think that Farsight (and his Enclaves) could have rules in two publications at the same time?

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 Kriswall wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
You couldn't use it before RaW but we could agree that the RaI was that you could designate any Tau CAD or AD as a FSE CAD or AD. You are unlikely to gain such a concession now, as you are trying to force an antiRaI strict RaW reading to use the Supplement at all. Essentially you can't have it both ways.


Sure you can. That's how house rules work. You can do whatever you want.

FSE worked before. FSE is still for sale. In a vacuum, FSE still works. Are we in a vacuum? Yes, because no subsequent publication references FSE or tells us to disregard any or all portions of it.

The fact that Mont'ka has similar rules isn't really relevant to this discussion. If you're building an army/detachment using the rules presented in FSE, use FSE as your reference. If you're building an army/detachment using the rules presented in Mont'ka, use Mont'ka as your reference. This isn't rocket science. Coteaz existed in two publications at the same time. Is it crazy to think that Farsight (and his Enclaves) could have rules in two publications at the same time?


Yes by Houserules you can use FSE Supplement. I don't really get your point? RaW you can't use it, RaI you can't use it. If your opponent agrees to the houserule to use it go ahead.

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I'm not sure I understand your argument of why you can't use it RaW.

Works just fine every time I open the book.

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 FlingitNow wrote:
You couldn't use it before RaW but we could agree that the RaI was that you could designate any Tau CAD or AD as a FSE CAD or AD. You are unlikely to gain such a concession now, as you are trying to force an antiRaI strict RaW reading to use the Supplement at all. Essentially you can't have it both ways.

Why could it not? You still have yet to answer this question, you just keep declaring it.

Spoiler:
A Farsight Enclaves army is chosen using the army list presented in Codex: Tau Empire. It also has a series of supplemental rules (presented below) that can be used in addition to the material found in Codex: Tau Empire. Note that you can only use the options from one codex supplement when choosing your army...

So, it looks like it uses whatever is in Codex: Tau Empire to build an army, with restrictions and benefits noted right after. So by using your standards, I cannot use Codex: Tau Empire to build an army?

Gaining such a concession is one thing, but you are stating this is RAW that FSE is illegal, and now WAS illegal. I'm still waiting for something to properly support this claim more than your declarations.

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So how do I know a CAD that contains TE faction units is a FSE detachment? What rules determine how you turn a TE CAD into a FSE CAD?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is not new stuff this all cane out the day 7th dropped.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 20:39:07


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 FlingitNow wrote:
So how do I know a CAD that contains TE faction units is a FSE detachment? What rules determine how you turn a TE CAD into a FSE CAD?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is not new stuff this all cane out the day 7th dropped.


"A Farsight Enclaves army is chosen using the army list presented in Codex: Tau Empire. It also has a series of supplemental rules (presented below) that can be used in addition to the material found in Codex: Tau Empire."

If I tell you I'm choosing my CAD using the Farsight Enclaves Supplement, it's a CAD that contains TE faction units and is a FSE detachment. I can't tell if you're purposefully trolling. You know it's a FSE detachment because you use... wait for it... spoken communication with your opponent.

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 FlingitNow wrote:
So how do I know a CAD that contains TE faction units is a FSE detachment? What rules determine how you turn a TE CAD into a FSE CAD?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is not new stuff this all cane out the day 7th dropped.

Try the day the FSE supplement dropped. There really isn't any difference in what they wrote then and now. How do you know a CAD is one Chapter Tactics or another (without obvious things like Unique Characters or Tactic Specific units)? The army is built that way and your opponent tells you.

As for TE versus FSE: Special Rules available to units, Crisis Suits changed Roles, certain Uniques became unavailable, and certain Wargear was required while new ones became available.

Where is it written that Mont'ka overrides the FSE supplement? All you've given is your declarations.

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So of you choose a FSE Army all detachments within are FSE Detachments is that your claim?

As for knowing what detachments are/aren't FSE detachments I meant from a rules perspective. What rules have you used to determine if a detachment is a FSE detachment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote:
 FlingitNow wrote:
So how do I know a CAD that contains TE faction units is a FSE detachment? What rules determine how you turn a TE CAD into a FSE CAD?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is not new stuff this all cane out the day 7th dropped.

Try the day the FSE supplement dropped. There really isn't any difference in what they wrote then and now. How do you know a CAD is one Chapter Tactics or another (without obvious things like Unique Characters or Tactic Specific units)? The army is built that way and your opponent tells you.

As for TE versus FSE: Special Rules available to units, Crisis Suits changed Roles, certain Uniques became unavailable, and certain Wargear was required while new ones became available.

Where is it written that Mont'ka overrides the FSE supplement? All you've given is your declarations.


Actually FSE worked fine with 6th Ed army building largely due to the quote you've given. In 6th you selected an ARMY that followed a FOC and could add an Ally to it. In 7th you simply select units, formations and detachments from any codex you wish.

Chapter Tactics is a good example as that is also a broken rule for the same reason (no rules tell you how to nominate which CT you are using they all deal with what happens once that choice is made).

Nothing declares Mont'ka overrides the FSE supplement. Just as nothing declares Codex: Craftworlds overrides Codex: Eldar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 21:00:40


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