Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ace Rimmer wrote:
[
I think the problem re:points costs is simply that the new 7th ed codices are at least 1 edition ahead of so many others and the overall costs of units/upgrades tends to decrease from 1 edition to the next, so when the newer codices are released, they will fall more into line with bang for buck with Eldar/Tau/Space Marines.
Throw in some funky formations and I think the problem will be solved, it's just waiting on GW to pull their finger out and start throwing out the updates. Hopefully 2016 will see a shift away from the AoS rush and give a bit more back to 40k.

Well, we know for a fact that Chaos Marines are getting almost entirely ignored next year. (new Rubrics is the best we *might* get)

So that leaves;
Space Wolves (confirmed for Feb)
Blood Angels (highly likely, because they're Loyalist Marines)
Grey Knights (decent possibility)
Orks (the more likely Xenos)
Tyranids (would be quick & easy as their model range is near complete)
Dark Eldar (not a snowball's chance in hell!)
Guard (probably not, as they got their 'update' in Mont'ka)

The only big looser is Chaos, though with the AoS Tzeentch stuff, there might be a new Daemon unit or two that gets ported over.

Chaos better damn well get the entirety of 2017 at this rate!

Aren't we due a new Big Rule Book Edition? It's nearly been two whole years and we know how often GW like to make all your books redundant.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Aren't we due a new Big Rule Book Edition? It's nearly been two whole years and we know how often GW like to make all your books redundant.

Maybe.. but this has not been in any rumors upcoming (right?). I feel like 7ed was intended to stay for a longer term, and now with the release of the demacles campaign books I think we might start seeing GW release newer content in forms of these campaign style expansions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Someone mentioned space marine bikes.. I think they are equally as nasty as scatterbikes can be. Especially under certain chapters. Definitely one of marines more competitive units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The new white scars formations are pretty solid too.

Ace Rimmer wrote:


As for 6 - Jetbikes really aren't all that durable, they are just MEQ. Base comparison, for 4 points more, a Space Marine Bike gets +1S, +1T, -1I, a Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades, better basic weapons, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics and can still be troops if the captain takes a bike.

Some of this isn't exactly what it seems.
The +1 S, Bolt Pistol, and grenades rarely come up. Jetbikes do not want to see melee combat, and being one of the fastest platforms in the game (and with relentless!) they don't have to unless they want to.
ATSKNF rarely comes up for similar reasons.
Jetbikes are troops without special measures having to be taken, not sure why you listed that as a bonus for marines.
Jetbikes have much better basic weapons. Shruikens have pseudo rending and with the jetbike movement can scoot and shoot, making them much better than bikes.
Jetbikes have much better special weapons, especially with the formation. Being 36" away from your enemies with absurd firepower, and being able to move after shooting, is all the protection you need.
To top it off, marine bikes are more expensive, despite the fact the jetbike has better movement and offers the guardian a better (same as the marine biker, but much better than the guardian normally gets).

The only advantages bikes really have is +1 Toughness and CT.
In return, they lose out to better speed, being cheaper, and better weapons.
Bikes are not equatable to jetbikes in terms of overall power. Cents are, but not bikes.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

The Eldar get a better turboboost and all can take heavy weapons at +10 (Str6), but the space marine bikes get arguably better special weapons (only 2, but the sergeant can take a combi). I'd happily lose Scatter Lasers in favour of fusion guns for +10points!

If every bike could take a fusion gun, maybe? Even then, with the eldar movement BS, the longer range gun is amazing. Eldar and Marines have better options than bikes for targeting heavy tanks (Drop Pods/Cents, Firedragons/Wraith). Troop removal, and MC removal, is done easily by the scat laser, a problem that is not easily solved by the rest of the eldar army (maybe spiders?).

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Mine die all the time because I use their speed for capturing objectives so they end up out in the open and die to anything from a wet fart upwards in strength/AP. If you use them to shoot, then they are only slightly quicker than a jetpack and tbh, if you're planning to JSJ, then you won't use the full 12" move anyway so as to risk being out of cover. The 36" turboboost is a bit tasty, but I think that is often a much better use than shooting, in maelstrom in particular.

If you think firing 4 shots at str 6 for a relatively low cost is a bad use of a unit, we are playing different games. Using them to capture objectives is a mistake, they should be played as far back as possible near LoS blocking cover. A scat laser falls just shy of killing a marine every turn by itself (with guide they do), easily earning their points back after 2 turns or with minimal support. In 3 turns of firing, a scat laser can remove every marine on the board if allowed to fire without losing models. And marines are not their best target.
When I play, removing scat lasers is priority 1. They do way too much damage and are extremely hard to hide from, and cover does not slow them down.

With command squads being elite options now every bike essentially can take a special weapon.

And everyone can tell you how absurdly expensive kitting out the Command Squad is. You've got plenty of Scatterbikes before even purchasing upgrades for them.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
With command squads being elite options now every bike essentially can take a special weapon.

I give you a lot credit for trying hard, but that's not an apples to apples comparison.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
With command squads being elite options now every bike essentially can take a special weapon.

Wow, you can now exchange other elite units for an expensive unit that the Eldar get for far less and at far better quality. And as troops.

Never said they were better then or the best unit to go with. Simply was saying with a command squad you can get a special weapon on every bike.

Cheers!

Akiasura wrote:

Ace Rimmer wrote:


As for 6 - Jetbikes really aren't all that durable, they are just MEQ. Base comparison, for 4 points more, a Space Marine Bike gets +1S, +1T, -1I, a Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades, better basic weapons, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics and can still be troops if the captain takes a bike.

Some of this isn't exactly what it seems.
The +1 S, Bolt Pistol, and grenades rarely come up. Jetbikes do not want to see melee combat, and being one of the fastest platforms in the game (and with relentless!) they don't have to unless they want to.
ATSKNF rarely comes up for similar reasons.
Jetbikes are troops without special measures having to be taken, not sure why you listed that as a bonus for marines.
Jetbikes have much better basic weapons. Shruikens have pseudo rending and with the jetbike movement can scoot and shoot, making them much better than bikes.
Jetbikes have much better special weapons, especially with the formation. Being 36" away from your enemies with absurd firepower, and being able to move after shooting, is all the protection you need.
To top it off, marine bikes are more expensive, despite the fact the jetbike has better movement and offers the guardian a better (same as the marine biker, but much better than the guardian normally gets).

The only advantages bikes really have is +1 Toughness and CT.
In return, they lose out to better speed, being cheaper, and better weapons.
Bikes are not equatable to jetbikes in terms of overall power. Cents are, but not bikes.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

The Eldar get a better turboboost and all can take heavy weapons at +10 (Str6), but the space marine bikes get arguably better special weapons (only 2, but the sergeant can take a combi). I'd happily lose Scatter Lasers in favour of fusion guns for +10points!

If every bike could take a fusion gun, maybe? Even then, with the eldar movement BS, the longer range gun is amazing. Eldar and Marines have better options than bikes for targeting heavy tanks (Drop Pods/Cents, Firedragons/Wraith). Troop removal, and MC removal, is done easily by the scat laser, a problem that is not easily solved by the rest of the eldar army (maybe spiders?).

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Mine die all the time because I use their speed for capturing objectives so they end up out in the open and die to anything from a wet fart upwards in strength/AP. If you use them to shoot, then they are only slightly quicker than a jetpack and tbh, if you're planning to JSJ, then you won't use the full 12" move anyway so as to risk being out of cover. The 36" turboboost is a bit tasty, but I think that is often a much better use than shooting, in maelstrom in particular.

If you think firing 4 shots at str 6 for a relatively low cost is a bad use of a unit, we are playing different games. Using them to capture objectives is a mistake, they should be played as far back as possible near LoS blocking cover. A scat laser falls just shy of killing a marine every turn by itself (with guide they do), easily earning their points back after 2 turns or with minimal support. In 3 turns of firing, a scat laser can remove every marine on the board if allowed to fire without losing models. And marines are not their best target.
When I play, removing scat lasers is priority 1. They do way too much damage and are extremely hard to hide from, and cover does not slow them down.

The fact they listed the Bolt Pistol as a bonus tells you all they need to know about what they know about the Space Marine Bike: nothing.
They have bloody Bolters. TL'd ones. You never use the Bolt Pistol.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Well, we know for a fact that Chaos Marines are getting almost entirely ignored next year. (new Rubrics is the best we *might* get)

So that leaves;
Space Wolves (confirmed for Feb)
Blood Angels (highly likely, because they're Loyalist Marines)
Grey Knights (decent possibility)
Orks (the more likely Xenos)
Tyranids (would be quick & easy as their model range is near complete)
Dark Eldar (not a snowball's chance in hell!)
Guard (probably not, as they got their 'update' in Mont'ka)

The only big looser is Chaos, though with the AoS Tzeentch stuff, there might be a new Daemon unit or two that gets ported over.

Chaos better damn well get the entirety of 2017 at this rate!

I'm reluctant to say either way what's happening next year, but I'd hope that at least half of those get a solid update.

Akiasura wrote:

Ace Rimmer wrote:


As for 6 - Jetbikes really aren't all that durable, they are just MEQ. Base comparison, for 4 points more, a Space Marine Bike gets +1S, +1T, -1I, a Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades, better basic weapons, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics and can still be troops if the captain takes a bike.

Some of this isn't exactly what it seems.
The +1 S, Bolt Pistol, and grenades rarely come up. Jetbikes do not want to see melee combat, and being one of the fastest platforms in the game (and with relentless!) they don't have to unless they want to.
ATSKNF rarely comes up for similar reasons.
Jetbikes are troops without special measures having to be taken, not sure why you listed that as a bonus for marines.
Jetbikes have much better basic weapons. Shruikens have pseudo rending and with the jetbike movement can scoot and shoot, making them much better than bikes.
Jetbikes have much better special weapons, especially with the formation. Being 36" away from your enemies with absurd firepower, and being able to move after shooting, is all the protection you need.
To top it off, marine bikes are more expensive, despite the fact the jetbike has better movement and offers the guardian a better (same as the marine biker, but much better than the guardian normally gets).

The only advantages bikes really have is +1 Toughness and CT.
In return, they lose out to better speed, being cheaper, and better weapons.
Bikes are not equatable to jetbikes in terms of overall power. Cents are, but not bikes.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

The Eldar get a better turboboost and all can take heavy weapons at +10 (Str6), but the space marine bikes get arguably better special weapons (only 2, but the sergeant can take a combi). I'd happily lose Scatter Lasers in favour of fusion guns for +10points!

If every bike could take a fusion gun, maybe? Even then, with the eldar movement BS, the longer range gun is amazing. Eldar and Marines have better options than bikes for targeting heavy tanks (Drop Pods/Cents, Firedragons/Wraith). Troop removal, and MC removal, is done easily by the scat laser, a problem that is not easily solved by the rest of the eldar army (maybe spiders?).

Apologies, I ended with the Captain making them troops so it was (at least to me re-reading before posting) obvious that I was finishing up after what they get extra. I'll start a new sentence next time, but I was merely pointing out that they can be troops.

Marine bikes cost +7pts, Eldar Jetbikes are +8pts based on the price of a tactical marine/guardian respectively.
Marine bikers are 4 pts more expensive because of the extra gear/rules the rider comes with and frankly that stuff adds up to way more than 4pts. If Windriders are overcosted, so are SM/CSM bikes.

ATSKNF doesn't always come up, but the ability to ignore fear and auto-regroup beats not having it every day, you're claiming it isn't a bonus? Assault isn't the only thing that makes marines break.

You seem to be arguing that for the weapons more range > than anything else, then telling me that 24" range bolters are worse than 12" range shuriken catapults? Yes Shuriken catapults have Bladestorm, but even with the assault move, they would be leaving themselves in charge range 42% of the time (as you would have to be within 12" of the unit you were shooting, you would only average 19" away after an average 7" assault move assuming you actually killed everyone within 12" but not over 12". I'd say that a guaranteed 24" away is better from the perspective you seem to be arguing from?

Having grenades is useful. Krak grenades give added anti-vehicle utility up close or against MC at a push, I'll agree it isn't always useful, but there will be occasions where it is, so arguing that having the ability/utility isn't an advantage is counter-intuitive.

The Windrider Host formation special rules don't do anything to Scatter Lasers, it very explicitly states all Shuriken weapons gain shred once per game. Besides which, you can't stay 36" away from the enemy the entire game unless they are running a static gun-line with nothing moving forwards, which would be pretty daft for a game in which almost every mission requires you to capture objectives. Sooner or later they are going to get close and you will either have to shoot or turbo-boost away.

I assume all of your opponents have armies with no long ranged weapons, artillery, barrage weapons or the like?
There are plenty of options out there that can shoot at 48" or shoot without line of sight to hit jetbikes.
Off the top of my head :- Codex:Astra Militarum, Lobba's, Shokk Attack Guns, Stompa's have a couple of guns IIRC, Biovores, Tyrranofex's have the big penis cannon thing, autocannons, missile launchers, battle cannons, havoc launchers, Whirlwinds, the necron barge gun (doomsday?). Apart from possibly Harlequins & Dark Eldar, is there any army that can't field anything at that range? Even GK get cyclone missile launchers.
Almost every army have a potential counter to long-ranged engagement or hiding behind cover.
That's without factoring in things like Fortifications and the like from Stronghold assault which are universal.

I see bikes/jetbikes in combat all the time, for exactly the reason you say they shouldn't see combat, they are a fast unit. Relentless + HoW + Attacks on the charge make them great at flanking a unit, softening them up and then finishing them off in assault.

I was comparing like for like as best as I can with the most popular/populous army(ies). Cent's are a different kettle of fish entirely.

I don't think the Eldar lack anywhere in the codex for ways to remove troops or MC's. Frankly, Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons are far better at killing MC's at than Scatbikes, Swooping Hawks and Dire Avengers throw down more firepower per point for killing Troops (hawks also move fast, have haywire grenades and can hurt flyers), and monofilament works pretty nicely on both (not just warp spiders). D-Scythes kill everything. Scatbikes are only the be-all and end-all of internet cookie cutter lists because they get lots of hype, regardless of whether they are best at it. I've found them to be frankly average over the games I've had since C:Craftworlds dropped.

Akiasura wrote:

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Mine die all the time because I use their speed for capturing objectives so they end up out in the open and die to anything from a wet fart upwards in strength/AP. If you use them to shoot, then they are only slightly quicker than a jetpack and tbh, if you're planning to JSJ, then you won't use the full 12" move anyway so as to risk being out of cover. The 36" turboboost is a bit tasty, but I think that is often a much better use than shooting, in maelstrom in particular.

If you think firing 4 shots at str 6 for a relatively low cost is a bad use of a unit, we are playing different games. Using them to capture objectives is a mistake, they should be played as far back as possible near LoS blocking cover. A scat laser falls just shy of killing a marine every turn by itself (with guide they do), easily earning their points back after 2 turns or with minimal support. In 3 turns of firing, a scat laser can remove every marine on the board if allowed to fire without losing models. And marines are not their best target.
When I play, removing scat lasers is priority 1. They do way too much damage and are extremely hard to hide from, and cover does not slow them down.

If you are looking at it in a bubble, then yes that looks great, but it would seem we are playing a different game. 11/12 missions in 40k are objective based, be it multiple objectives or just a single relic. Only 1 offers points for killing units exclusively, 2 offer points for killing specific units (FA/HS) in addition to the objectives, plus there are what 8 maelstrom cards out of 66 for killing a unit or multiple units for VPs? The vast majority of the victory conditions will come down to who holds objectives, either throughout the flow of the game in maelstrom or at the end of the game in Eternal War.

Jetbikes singularly greatest place in a list if their ability to capture objectives, especially seeing as you reiterated the point about them being troops and therefore ObSec in a CAD. If they aren't capturing objectives, it's a moot point.

And yes a single scatterlaser kills 0.74 of a marine each turn. So it takes 3 turns to kill 2.22 marines and make back the jetbikes points. That's actually a pretty poor investment, but you did say as much. It would take 2 turns for an MSU Scatbike squad to kill a 5 man tac squad. 2 turns of 81 points to till kill 70 points, is actually 162 points of investment in the kill as you had to invest an 81 point unit's firepower on 2 occasions to kill a single 70-point unit of 5 marines whilst ignoring anything else and not boosting onto objectives/line-breaker/behind enemy lines etc...

When I play, I always try to take out the jetbikes first too, because they can cover the board from 1 end to the other in a single turn and contest/capture objectives, so we can at least agree on the fact they need to die early on if you are playing against them? If you can keep your jetbike unit shooting and 36" away from me at all times, I'm doing something seriously wrong as a general as I should be moving up to capture objectives and put you under pressure. deepstrike, drop pods, flyers, jump infantry, infiltrators, scouts, outflanking all enable you the change to get up close and personal and force you to either stay and shoot or turbo-boost away and lose the turn of firepower and potentially come into range of somethgin else.

If we really want to go into it, Take 3 MSU bike squads, 1 with Shuriken Catapults, 1 with Shuriken Cannons, 1 with Scatter Lasers all shooting at MEQ.
Shuriken Catapults, 6 Shots at BS4 with Twin-Linked is 5.33 hits. Thats 1.667wounds + 1 AP2 Autowound, That's an average or 1.56 Dead MEQ for 51pts or 32.8pts per dead marine.
Throw in Shred and it's 1.92 dead marines, with it going up to 2.5 dead marines every 3rd game (6 to wound on the shred re-roll), so an average of 1.71 wounds over 18 games turns (3 battles essentially), so 29.8pts per kill.

Shuriken Cannon, 9 Shots, 6 hits, 4.16wounds + 1 AP 2 wound. Thats 2.39 dead MEQ for 81pts, or 33.9pts per dead marine.
With the shred, it's 2.62 dead marines with 3.39 every 5th game, so over the 5 games (30 turns) required to acheive an average result, thats 2.567 dead MEQ at 31.55pts per kill.

Scatter Laser, 12 shots, 8 hits, 6.66 wounds, 2.22 dead. Thats 36.8pts per kill, literally the worst kill to cost ratio of the available options.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The fact they listed the Bolt Pistol as a bonus tells you all they need to know about what they know about the Space Marine Bike: nothing.
They have bloody Bolters. TL'd ones. You never use the Bolt Pistol.

I never actually said it was a bonus, I said it was something they had Windriders didn't....

I have recently started running MSU (2 catapults+ 1 cannon) or larger (3+2) units, because as stated so many games rely on objectives. This has helped me cut my losses to a minimum when I have to sacrifice a unit for an objective.

If you like running the windrunner formation, I have found this loadout more effecient as well.

It's pretty much what I'm moving back towards, as I don't find Scatter Lasers to be more effective than Shuriken cannons on most occasions.

The only advantages bikes really have is +1 Toughness and CT.
In return, they lose out to better speed, being cheaper, and better weapons.
Bikes are not equatable to jetbikes in terms of overall power. Cents are, but not bikes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this isn't completely accurate. To my knowledge any Eldar unit able to take a Jetbike gets +1 Toughness. They are only toughness 4 on virtue of being Eldar who are toughness 3 normally.

On another note, Marines do get a lot of extras that are mostly useless and they pay through the nose to get them. Other armies however are a lot more specialized and end up with cheaper more effective units. Eldar units don't have a bunch of extra crap they don't really need or are marginally useful. Nor are Eldar limited to 2 special weapons and a one use combi weapon (all pretty short range, especially compared to jetbikes movement and weapon range vs the marine bike movement and weapon range). The marine weapons are also considerably more expensive than eldar weapons.

I don't know how anyone reasonable can think that space marine bikes come remotely close to Eldar jetbikes in versatility, usefulness and power level for a broad range of situations.

That being said, there are edge cases where the space marine bikes are going to be better against particular targets, specifically because of grav weapons. But if space marines ahd a choice between jetbikes with pretty much any of the Eldar special weapons and regular bikes with their choice of similarly-costed space marine weaponry, there would be no contest.

DA bikers are > than eldar bikes. Who cares how much you shoot if you can't get through 2+ rerollable.

The new whitescar formations have made their bikes much more flexible then vanilla. Even the ability to JSJ. Just thought it was worth noting.

Cheers!

 Grizzyzz wrote:
The new whitescar formations have made their bikes much more flexible then vanilla. Even the ability to JSJ. Just thought it was worth noting.

Cheers!

Flexible? I'm not sure you can call it that. The Stormlance Battle Demi-company you're apparently referring to can only include max. 1 bike squad and you have to take plenty of tax units for your bikes to be able to JSJ. If the ability to JSJ is worth at least 370 points to you I guess you could call it a flexible option.

I think there's a good case that Bikes, just in general, are rather overpowered. Between their speed, increased toughness, Relentless, generally toting either Twin Linked or Heavy weapons, and Jink ability, and their often relatively paltry price difference relative to footslotting equivalents, Bikes in general in almost every army (except maybe DE) could stand to take a rather substantial nerfing and still remain viable.

NorseSig wrote:

The only advantages bikes really have is +1 Toughness and CT.
In return, they lose out to better speed, being cheaper, and better weapons.
Bikes are not equatable to jetbikes in terms of overall power. Cents are, but not bikes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this isn't completely accurate. To my knowledge any Eldar unit able to take a Jetbike gets +1 Toughness. They are only toughness 4 on virtue of being Eldar who are toughness 3 normally.

Yes, what was meant is that they have +1T relative to the Windrider, both models get +1T from the bikes, but that is because the Tactical Marine has a higher base toughness, one of many reasons why they cost more than the windrider and the point of the list I posted....

NorseSig wrote:On another note, Marines do get a lot of extras that are mostly useless and they pay through the nose to get them. Other armies however are a lot more specialized and end up with cheaper more effective units. Eldar units don't have a bunch of extra crap they don't really need or are marginally useful. Nor are Eldar limited to 2 special weapons and a one use combi weapon (all pretty short range, especially compared to jetbikes movement and weapon range vs the marine bike movement and weapon range). The marine weapons are also considerably more expensive than eldar weapons.

Talys wrote:I don't know how anyone reasonable can think that space marine bikes come remotely close to Eldar jetbikes in versatility, usefulness and power level for a broad range of situations.

That being said, there are edge cases where the space marine bikes are going to be better against particular targets, specifically because of grav weapons. But if space marines ahd a choice between jetbikes with pretty much any of the Eldar special weapons and regular bikes with their choice of similarly-costed space marine weaponry, there would be no contest.

My point is that saying they are undercosted doesn't stack up to other bikers who get a lot more gear/stats for not a lot more points.
It seems I'm the only person who doesn't think that better stats, double the range on their basic weapons, ATSKNF, chapter tactics, a bevy of grenades, and other things that would add up to at least 10-12 points minimum per model of potentially useful upgrades are useless? ATSKNF is essentially fearless without the downsides, Krak grenades are fairly useful to have to hand if you are facing any kind of light/medium vehicles, frag grenades offer utility for assaulting into cover to finish off MSU objective holders once you've shot them up with your bolters, hit harder in assault when you do with +1S, and be tougher against all fire courtesy of T5 vs T4. You can pull up 20-22" away from a unit of infrantry and shoot them up and have a reasonable chance of little-no return fire from them without forcing them to move to you, certainly out of rapid-fire range if applicable. On a like for like basis, SM bikers are better than windriders with the singular exception of the turbo boost and potentially the weapon options.
Eldar have nothing >S6 all at 10 points, Marines get Melta(10), Grav and Plasma options(15) and flamers (5), all of which have uses. I'd say that Grav/Plasma are easily as good or better than the Eldar options and are likewise costed at 5 pts more. Melta is a great option as it offers fast moving anti-tank and is the same price, flamers are more situational as you're getting really up close, but actually, I like that as you can burn units straight out of cover and objectives and still break the remnants with an assault so you can capture it because you are fast enough to get there nice and quick.
Unless I'm mistaken, Space Marine bikes don't lose their Twin-Linked bolters for taking their special weapons either as you can swap the "useless" bolt pistol for a chainsword to give you the melee weapon to swap for the special, so it is in essence an extra weapon, making them more versatile as an option?

If you throw in 3 Scout Bikes, they drop to 4+ armour, but gain Infiltrate and Scout ,a Scout Shotgun, Still T5 with grenades, etc.. and are only 1pt per model more than windriders and for +5pts can take the astartes grenade launcher. I'd be tempted to double-tap the frag grenades as that would be around 2 hits per grenade if they are spread out, more so if they are bunched up in cover. So if we say 2 hits average per grenade,
12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 dead MEQ, thats 34.5pts per kill, which is comparable to the windriders and still at the same range as the shuriken cannon, better than catapults, worse than the scatter laser. Or you could throw out the krak grenades for S6 against vehicles/MC's.

All I'm saying is that crying out that something is undercosted doesn't stack up against the closest comparable options in similarly aged codices.

Just checking the Ork Codex and Warbikes are 18pts and get 2 CCW, 3 Twin-linked S5 AP5 shots (admittedly at a lower BS) Furious Charge, T5, 2A base , re-roll 1 die when rolling charge distance.
Again against MEQ
9 shots, 5 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 dead, 48.64 pts per kill, but then they have 4 attacks on the charge compared to the Eldar/SM's 2, so pushing to assault, like an Ork.

Even DE Reavers are cheaper, get 2 CCW's, the same movement rules, combat drugs, hit & run, skilled rider, power from pain, improved HoW, plus the option to make it better still at 1/3 models and throw in some S6 Ap1 or S8 Ap2 18" weapons to increase the general killiness of the unit.

I'm not saying they necessarily perform the exact same roles, but point for point, they are all within the same ball-park and each race gets it's own different sets of rules for those points that suits the nature of the rider. Eldar jetbikes seem to get an unfairly high proportion of grief for what is in essence on par with other codices?

Ace Rimmer wrote:
*A perfect example of someone not getting it*

I do not even know where to begin? How the hell can you compare Eldar bikes to Ork Bikers and claim that they are both equal? Or hell, even Eldar bikes to SM bikes? The Eldar biker units are so far above all of the other units of a similar type that any attempt at a comparison is a total and utter joke.
Stop trying to claim that everything is balanced and actually think about what you are trying to claim, please.

You just said that it is handy to have Krak Grenades when Scatterbikes get 4 shots with them at a ludicrous range.

Bikes in general are strong this addition but nothing holds a candle to the eldar version.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Ace Rimmer wrote:


As for 6 - Jetbikes really aren't all that durable, they are just MEQ. Base comparison, for 4 points more, a Space Marine Bike gets +1S, +1T, -1I, a Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak Grenades, better basic weapons, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics and can still be troops if the captain takes a bike.

Some of this isn't exactly what it seems.
The +1 S, Bolt Pistol, and grenades rarely come up. Jetbikes do not want to see melee combat, and being one of the fastest platforms in the game (and with relentless!) they don't have to unless they want to.
ATSKNF rarely comes up for similar reasons.
Jetbikes are troops without special measures having to be taken, not sure why you listed that as a bonus for marines.
Jetbikes have much better basic weapons. Shruikens have pseudo rending and with the jetbike movement can scoot and shoot, making them much better than bikes.
Jetbikes have much better special weapons, especially with the formation. Being 36" away from your enemies with absurd firepower, and being able to move after shooting, is all the protection you need.
To top it off, marine bikes are more expensive, despite the fact the jetbike has better movement and offers the guardian a better (same as the marine biker, but much better than the guardian normally gets).

The only advantages bikes really have is +1 Toughness and CT.
In return, they lose out to better speed, being cheaper, and better weapons.
Bikes are not equatable to jetbikes in terms of overall power. Cents are, but not bikes.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

The Eldar get a better turboboost and all can take heavy weapons at +10 (Str6), but the space marine bikes get arguably better special weapons (only 2, but the sergeant can take a combi). I'd happily lose Scatter Lasers in favour of fusion guns for +10points!

If every bike could take a fusion gun, maybe? Even then, with the eldar movement BS, the longer range gun is amazing. Eldar and Marines have better options than bikes for targeting heavy tanks (Drop Pods/Cents, Firedragons/Wraith). Troop removal, and MC removal, is done easily by the scat laser, a problem that is not easily solved by the rest of the eldar army (maybe spiders?).

Apologies, I ended with the Captain making them troops so it was (at least to me re-reading before posting) obvious that I was finishing up after what they get extra. I'll start a new sentence next time, but I was merely pointing out that they can be troops.

Marine bikes cost +7pts, Eldar Jetbikes are +8pts based on the price of a tactical marine/guardian respectively.
Marine bikers are 4 pts more expensive because of the extra gear/rules the rider comes with and frankly that stuff adds up to way more than 4pts. If Windriders are overcosted, so are SM/CSM bikes.

I'm going to assume you mean undercosted here, because you'd be crazy to say either unit is overcosted. If I'm wrong ignore this.

Marine bikes cost +7 points and provide relentless, TL, +1 T, and increase speed. Nothing else you listed is from the bike itself, but rather marine special rules.
Eldar bikes cost +8 points, provide all of the above, even greater speed, and an increased armor save.
For 1 more point, and being cheaper over all, eldar jetbikes provide way more than the marine bikes. They do not gain more special rules than eldar bikes, though the list might be longer because marines come standard with more than guardians. But that's not the argument you made. As for relevant rules...eldar bikes have the better ones.
It's been a complaint for a while now that eldar jetbikes provide more special rules than any other bike out there after all.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

ATSKNF doesn't always come up, but the ability to ignore fear and auto-regroup beats not having it every day, you're claiming it isn't a bonus? Assault isn't the only thing that makes marines break.

No, I'm claiming its a small bonus for a unit that will never see melee and is commonly seen in msu formations. Eldar have relatively good leadership, and the big penalties to leadership only come about in close range for the most part.
So yeah, minor bonus. Certainly not big enough to swing it in the favor of the marines.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

You seem to be arguing that for the weapons more range > than anything else, then telling me that 24" range bolters are worse than 12" range shuriken catapults? Yes Shuriken catapults have Bladestorm, but even with the assault move, they would be leaving themselves in charge range 42% of the time (as you would have to be within 12" of the unit you were shooting, you would only average 19" away after an average 7" assault move assuming you actually killed everyone within 12" but not over 12". I'd say that a guaranteed 24" away is better from the perspective you seem to be arguing from?

This is a bit misleading.
The bolters, and most of the special weapons that bikes can fire, aren't effective at 24". A TL bolter shot is not scary by any means, so bikes really need to be at the 12" range to be effective. They are also slower than jetbikes, so have trouble reaching there compared to the jetbikes. They are then in melee range unless they happen to roll quite well and do some damage. Bikes are always in melee or rapid fire range, because they need to be there to be effective with the standard loadout.

Jetbikes, with standard equipment, only have a 12" range, true. Their weapons are deadlier than a bolter (essentially being them with pseudo rending), but the assault move makes them better in every way. Being 19" away + kill distance means that unless the melee unit can move 12", they won't reach melee (I'm assuming your 42% was assuming that the unit charging could move 12 inches and charge...which most units can't). Not to mention dodging out of LoS, which the marine bikes can only dream about.

With special weapons, it's only worse. The jetbikes have a huge range advantage and can move 2d6, while the bikers just get deadlier at a foot closer.

Basically, the marine bikes with standard loadout trade ~5" of extra range for worse than half firepower at that range. At closer range, when the bikes do damage, the jetbikes severely outperform the marine bikes. With special weapons, the jetbikes outrange the bikes by a foot plus the 2d6" in the assault phase.
So in terms of firepower and range based defense, the jetbikes are almost always superior. Very rarely is it the other way (when you want 1 shot at 24" from a bolter, basically. I would not pay 100 points for 5 TL bolter shots, but YMMV).

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Having grenades is useful. Krak grenades give added anti-vehicle utility up close or against MC at a push, I'll agree it isn't always useful, but there will be occasions where it is, so arguing that having the ability/utility isn't an advantage is counter-intuitive.

I never said it isn't an advantage, I said it isn't a useful advantage. Both armies have far superior options for targeting heavy armor, bikes even have grav most of the time. The grenades aren't needed.
Eldar jetbikes have higher init, but we aren't discussing it because...who cares? It is rare and isn't what makes the unit good. Marine bikes aren't good because of the grenades.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

The Windrider Host formation special rules don't do anything to Scatter Lasers, it very explicitly states all Shuriken weapons gain shred once per game. Besides which, you can't stay 36" away from the enemy the entire game unless they are running a static gun-line with nothing moving forwards, which would be pretty daft for a game in which almost every mission requires you to capture objectives. Sooner or later they are going to get close and you will either have to shoot or turbo-boost away.

Uh, you can stay 36" away unless the enemy deepstrikes or turbo boosts. The unit can move 12" in the movement phase, shoot 36" away, and then move 2d6". Outside of flyers, eldar jetbikes are the fastest unit in the range. There are very few unit that can catch them before they can fire for 3 turns.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

I assume all of your opponents have armies with no long ranged weapons, artillery, barrage weapons or the like?
There are plenty of options out there that can shoot at 48" or shoot without line of sight to hit jetbikes.
Off the top of my head :- Codex:Astra Militarum, Lobba's, Shokk Attack Guns, Stompa's have a couple of guns IIRC, Biovores, Tyrranofex's have the big penis cannon thing, autocannons, missile launchers, battle cannons, havoc launchers, Whirlwinds, the necron barge gun (doomsday?). Apart from possibly Harlequins & Dark Eldar, is there any army that can't field anything at that range? Even GK get cyclone missile launchers.
Almost every army have a potential counter to long-ranged engagement or hiding behind cover.

Really? Most armies don't have many unless they design for it, at least enough that will take out 20-40 bikes, which is what you see in the competitive lists.
Most of the options you listed require line of sight, or won't do much damage to the bikes (removing, at best 1-2 and costing a ton of points). Many of them are easily removed by the rest of the eldar army, because wraithguard or firedragons are a thing.
Which...I mentioned?
What removes marine bikes? Everything you listed and more, because they trade +1 toughness for a roughly equivalent cost to a scat bike (3 points?), a slower speed, the inability to hide from enemy firepower, and a shorter range with weaker firepower against more targets (grav being the exception).

Ace Rimmer wrote:

That's without factoring in things like Fortifications and the like from Stronghold assault which are universal.

I see bikes/jetbikes in combat all the time, for exactly the reason you say they shouldn't see combat, they are a fast unit. Relentless + HoW + Attacks on the charge make them great at flanking a unit, softening them up and then finishing them off in assault.

Bikes, especially with White Scars tactics, are excellent in CC and pretty much have to go there if you want to see them earn their points back. With a HQ in front tanking attacks and dealing some damage, they do quite well. I never claimed marine bikes shouldn't be in assault.
Jetbikes, however, are garbage in CC and should never see it. Str 3 is bad in melee. If people are putting the jetbikes in CC willingly, I would question their strategy. Unless it would cost you the game not to charge them (how?) you are always better off shooting the scat laser.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

I was comparing like for like as best as I can with the most popular/populous army(ies). Cent's are a different kettle of fish entirely.

I was only pointing out that both are the strongest options in their codex, and are roughly equal in power.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

I don't think the Eldar lack anywhere in the codex for ways to remove troops or MC's. Frankly, Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons are far better at killing MC's at than Scatbikes, Swooping Hawks and Dire Avengers throw down more firepower per point for killing Troops (hawks also move fast, have haywire grenades and can hurt flyers), and monofilament works pretty nicely on both (not just warp spiders). D-Scythes kill everything. Scatbikes are only the be-all and end-all of internet cookie cutter lists because they get lots of hype, regardless of whether they are best at it. I've found them to be frankly average over the games I've had since C:Craftworlds dropped.

Well, you probably think they are average because you see them get used as a pseudo CC platform and objective grabber, rather than fire support.
Fire dragons are short ranged, T3, and fire a 1 shot weapon. They are great at killing tanks and do ok at MC hunting, and are pretty terrible at most other targets.
Dark reapers are good at infantry killing, but are T3 and immobile.
Swooping hawks are garbage at killing infantry and are used exclusively for haywire. Not sure why you think they excel at killing infantry compared to a scatlaser.
DA do not compare well to scat lasers. They are T3, 4+ save, short ranged, slow, and can only use the shurikens that get replaced on the bikes.
Wraithguard are amazing, but slow if their transport dies and are short ranged.

Look at how many units you had to reach for to compare to the scat bikes. That is why scat bikes are chosen. They don't beat every unit in the dex at every target, but they can compete against nearly every target.
The only ones they can't, heavy armor/GMCs, is why you see Firedragons, hawks, and spiders.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Mine die all the time because I use their speed for capturing objectives so they end up out in the open and die to anything from a wet fart upwards in strength/AP. If you use them to shoot, then they are only slightly quicker than a jetpack and tbh, if you're planning to JSJ, then you won't use the full 12" move anyway so as to risk being out of cover. The 36" turboboost is a bit tasty, but I think that is often a much better use than shooting, in maelstrom in particular.

If you think firing 4 shots at str 6 for a relatively low cost is a bad use of a unit, we are playing different games. Using them to capture objectives is a mistake, they should be played as far back as possible near LoS blocking cover. A scat laser falls just shy of killing a marine every turn by itself (with guide they do), easily earning their points back after 2 turns or with minimal support. In 3 turns of firing, a scat laser can remove every marine on the board if allowed to fire without losing models. And marines are not their best target.
When I play, removing scat lasers is priority 1. They do way too much damage and are extremely hard to hide from, and cover does not slow them down.

If you are looking at it in a bubble, then yes that looks great, but it would seem we are playing a different game. 11/12 missions in 40k are objective based, be it multiple objectives or just a single relic. Only 1 offers points for killing units exclusively, 2 offer points for killing specific units (FA/HS) in addition to the objectives, plus there are what 8 maelstrom cards out of 66 for killing a unit or multiple units for VPs? The vast majority of the victory conditions will come down to who holds objectives, either throughout the flow of the game in maelstrom or at the end of the game in Eternal War.

And removing the enemies units reduces their ability to capture objectives. Scat lasers remove troops in ways other units can only dream of, all while being incredibly safe.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Jetbikes singularly greatest place in a list if their ability to capture objectives, especially seeing as you reiterated the point about them being troops and therefore ObSec in a CAD. If they aren't capturing objectives, it's a moot point.

I mentioned it because it's nice, they can claim backfield objectives (Eldar don't have troops that are mobile and want to stay backfield), but I never once said that's their main objective. You'd be hard pressed to find battle reports where the jetbikes are desperately chasing objectives instead of removing units from the enemy.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

And yes a single scatterlaser kills 0.74 of a marine each turn. So it takes 3 turns to kill 2.22 marines and make back the jetbikes points. That's actually a pretty poor investment, but you did say as much. It would take 2 turns for an MSU Scatbike squad to kill a 5 man tac squad. 2 turns of 81 points to till kill 70 points, is actually 162 points of investment in the kill as you had to invest an 81 point unit's firepower on 2 occasions to kill a single 70-point unit of 5 marines whilst ignoring anything else and not boosting onto objectives/line-breaker/behind enemy lines etc...

Show me another unit that can do this. Most units, at best, earn roughly 1/2 their points back, and that is things like cents.
And this is against marines, one of their worst targets since the point/save ratio is pretty good.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

If we really want to go into it, Take 3 MSU bike squads, 1 with Shuriken Catapults, 1 with Shuriken Cannons, 1 with Scatter Lasers all shooting at MEQ.
Shuriken Catapults, 6 Shots at BS4 with Twin-Linked is 5.33 hits. Thats 1.667wounds + 1 AP2 Autowound, That's an average or 1.56 Dead MEQ for 51pts or 32.8pts per dead marine.
Throw in Shred and it's 1.92 dead marines, with it going up to 2.5 dead marines every 3rd game (6 to wound on the shred re-roll), so an average of 1.71 wounds over 18 games turns (3 battles essentially), so 29.8pts per kill.

Shuriken Cannon, 9 Shots, 6 hits, 4.16wounds + 1 AP 2 wound. Thats 2.39 dead MEQ for 81pts, or 33.9pts per dead marine.
With the shred, it's 2.62 dead marines with 3.39 every 5th game, so over the 5 games (30 turns) required to acheive an average result, thats 2.567 dead MEQ at 31.55pts per kill.

Scatter Laser, 12 shots, 8 hits, 6.66 wounds, 2.22 dead. Thats 36.8pts per kill, literally the worst kill to cost ratio of the available options.

It's 32.8 pints, to 33.9 points, to 36.8 points.
It's not a big difference, you are trading in 10% firepower (at worse) against a not great target, and having to get a lot closer to do so.
Compare them against other targets, like Av 10/11/12, Mcs, light troops. Scats have the best or comparable firepower at greater range.
Not to mention that scats benefit greatly from guide, which ups their firepower quite a bit. The best weapon, the catapaults, don't benefit from guide at all.
I won't mention the shred because it lasts for one round, and scat lasers can expect to fire 5 at least. Catapaults will get 1 before being rapid fired, and cannons will fare slightly better. Neither is as safe as the scat laser or can target as many units.

When comparing weapons, you want to compare against a variety of targets, not cherry pick one result and not mention any of the other advantages.

Alcibiades wrote:
I'm still amazed that PacificRimJob is an allowable alias, when the word that would be donkey cave is banned. Do people not know what that means?

There's also a user called c00n, so, yeah... That's a thing...

Trying to quote snippets is taking ages so I'll try to deal with your points in order mostly without the quotes if that's okay?

Akiasura wrote:
I'm going to assume you mean undercosted here, because you'd be crazy to say either unit is overcosted. If I'm wrong ignore this.

Marine bikes cost +7 points and provide relentless, TL, +1 T, and increase speed. Nothing else you listed is from the bike itself, but rather marine special rules.
Eldar bikes cost +8 points, provide all of the above, even greater speed, and an increased armor save.
For 1 more point, and being cheaper over all, eldar jetbikes provide way more than the marine bikes. They do not gain more special rules than eldar bikes, though the list might be longer because marines come standard with more than guardians. But that's not the argument you made. As for relevant rules...eldar bikes have the better ones.
It's been a complaint for a while now that eldar jetbikes provide more special rules than any other bike out there after all.

Yes sorry, typo on my part.
I did throw in several other comparisons later on that you seem to have neglected (Scout Bikes, Warbikes, DE Reavers) where they are comparably priced and get many similar or extra rules/abilities/equipment and that are not given the same vehement treatment as Wind Riders.


I can't argue that the windriders are killier if you roll the pseudo-rend, but I disagree on the special weapon as 2 plasma guns firing once at 24" kill 1.10 MEQ, , Rapid Firing at 12" would be 2.2 MEQ, 2 Twin-linked Bolters rapid firing at 12" kill 0.59 MEQ, 2 T-L Shuriken Catapults at 12" kill 1.42 with the pseudo-rend. In my opinion that's a worthwhile purchase as it's 77% as effective at killing at twice the range or 155% as effective at the same range and is also more effective against TEQ, Vehicles than anything the Windriders can take.
I also wouldn't pay 100pts for 5 TL Bolter shots, but 5 TL Bolter shots that can move 12" then follow up with potentially 5 HoW attacks and 10 A on the charge into a unit I probably would.


I brought up the Higher I in the first place, you ignored it before and I followed suit.

Added utility is never a bad thing, just because you have a superior option for targetting it, doesn't mean you're always going to be able to use it.

I'm also not saying that grenades alone make them good, I'm saying that as a whole package, they come with greater utility through having more options.


Are you playing on an infinitely large table with no terrain other than the bit you are hiding jetbikes behind? I did mention this already but to reiiterate:- deepstrike, drop pods, flyers, jump infantry, infiltrators, scouts, outflanking all exist within game and offer ways to get up close and personal really quickly with the opponents deployment zone. If you're in their face, they have to decide between moving or shooting as 12" + 2d6" is unlikely to get them out of retalition range and even if they do turbo-boost, they run the risk of coming into range/LOS of other units.

Well if most competitive lists feature 20-40 bikes, why isn't anyone sensible enough to consider building a list that would feature something that is apparently going to be used a lot?

I never said the weapons didn't have to require LOS, I said long range or ignore LOS. I'm well aware Wraithguard and Fire Dragons are a thing as I own quite a few from when they were £1.75 for a blister pack. At 1850pts, going with 30 Scat Bikes (you said 20-40, so I went halfway) you have spent 75% on your points on 3 units of jetbikes, 5 fire dragons and 5 d-guard with a naked WS each so they might actually get near something to get to shoot at it. That leaves you 500pts to buy an HQ, the useful upgrades on the serpents and something else to actually put some models on the table so you're not hopelessly outnumbered.

SM Bikes are 6 pts cheaper than a Scatterbike.

The same things that remove marine bikes remove windriders, you just have to use some sort of strategy to place them/move them/transport them to where they can kill them.

Jetbikes are not an outright assault unit, S3 is not ideal for Melee, but against small units, shooting and then assaulting with them is useful, as softening them up, HoW and then their attacks on the charge is usually enough to break the enemy and force them off an objective or away from another unit. I frequently use them to as such to great effect.

I've tried running them a fire support, but frankly I find Dark Reapers better bang for buck as Str 8 Ap3 and Str 5 Ap 3 negates a lot of saves that the Scatbikes have to shoot through. The reapers usually make back their points by the end of turn 2 and with 3 smaller units, they can cover almost the entire board with their overlapping fire lanes. Forcing people to not enter an area once they've felt the dark reapers bite is equally useful.

I don't really use Fire Dragons anymore as there aren't many AV14 users or terminators in my meta so my hawks, reapers and bright lances deal with the vehicles.

I'm seeing them used(and using them) as an objective grabber because they do that better than any other unit in game.

Dire Avengers are 18" range, not 12", can battle focus for added speed (not jetbike speed admittedly, but faster than whoever they are chasing/being chased by), and are actually very good as a unit.

Swooping Hawks at a comparable cost (7 at 112, to 4 scatbikes at 108) would only put out about 1.56wounds, as opposed to the scat bikes 2.96, but have the haywire for much better anti-tank and anti-flyer, have battle focus so can potentially JSJ, move 18" and also have the deep strike large blast if they start in reserve or skyleap. I'm not saying they are the same, I'm saying they have other options to achieve or better the utility of Scatbikes within the codex.

I
As for your unit assessment, Fire Dragons also kill MEQ/TEQ very efficiently, but otherwise you are right, too slow without a wave serpent.
Dark Reapers are a pretty good all-rounder, S8 ID's T4 multiwound models, wounds most MC's on a 2+ many of whom are only 3+ or worse, and now with Starhawk on the exarch have a good shot on fliers too. 2 Plasma missiles plus 4+ S5 AP3 shots hurts pretty much any infantry. They are also S&P so they can move and shoot and (not that you would) assault despite their heavy weapons. I have seen them used in a Wave Serpent to open up a flanking fire lane to great effect a couple of times, I've been toying with trying it myself.

Wraithguard is bang on the money, you can run away from them on foot.

I didn't have to reach for that many units, they were just the ones that I think offer a reasonably similar offensive output. I'd rather take Reapers and stick with cheap bikes to harass smaller unit and claim objectives. Warp Spiders actually were a good shout on your part, they are pretty comparable (S6, no AP) but are 8pts cheaper per model, get 2 less shots but are more effective against low I MC's, get a pseudo rend and get that ridiculous "oh no you shot me" run away rule as well as being jetpack infantry for JSJ.


Yes removing enemy units reduces their ability to capture objectives and scatter lasers do that as effectively as many other weapons in the eldar arsenal, but not exclusively. Deep Strike/outflank eats jetbikes hard, I've been on the giving and receiving end of it.

I mentioned it because it's nice, they can claim backfield objectives (Eldar don't have troops that are mobile and want to stay backfield), but I never once said that's their main objective. You'd be hard pressed to find battle reports where the jetbikes are desperately chasing objectives instead of removing units from the enemy.

Really? There's a few on here, plenty more on youtube where they are busy running around objectives instead of shooting so they win the game.

Show me another unit that can do this. Most units, at best, earn roughly 1/2 their points back, and that is things like cents.
And this is against marines, one of their worst targets since the point/save ratio is pretty good.

Dark Reapers, Shadow Weaver Support Platforms, Necron Wraiths/Tomb Spyders, Mawlocs, Trygons off the top of my head I see regularly make back their points.


I picked MEQ as it's the most popular/populous army/target, it's a fairly standard yard stick. Guide offers a 22% increase in hits, 18.3% in wounds, for 6% overall casualties on the above calculation for scatter lasers, whilst more than doubling the investment of points in the kill. You'd be better off taking another unit of scatbikes or frankly anything else for your 100pts.

Against light troops, the odds move in favour of the shurikens even more because they will ignore 5+ and the catapults will cause more wounds on T3.
Pseudo-rend favours Shuriken against MC's.
AV10/11/12 favours the scatter laser, but as you said above why use a couple of turns of anything else on a vehicle when you could use fire dragons or swooping hawks to kill it in one?

@master of ordinance - I wasn't trying to claim they are equal, merely comparable in so much as they are simliar points and all have a multitude of special rules unique to their race/speciality. Eldar are quick, space marines are all-rounders, orks like hitting stuff, Dark Eldar are of all of those but fragile.

@ Slayer-Fan123 - Well actualy, Krak grenades are Ap4 rather than ap6, they don't have to pay more to get them, get those as well as other weapons and can use them in assault, not even similar.

In the interest of general forum harmony, might I suggest we either take this elsewhere or agree to disagree as it's taking 1 hour plus per post to work through and I do in all honesty have better things to be doing (cheese, wine, Open Uni work amongst others)?

WHEN is that AP4 going to matter? A range of 36" with 4 shots is going to kill more infantry AND tanks. The AP4 will also matter never against a tank, which is the primary target for them.

And yes they ARE paying through the nose to get them. A standard Space Marine Biker is not much cheaper than a Scatterbike.

Ace Rimmer wrote:
Trying to quote snippets is taking ages so I'll try to deal with your points in order mostly without the quotes if that's okay?

Kinda wish you would, because you are misconstruing what is being said.
Frequently and badly.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I'm going to assume you mean undercosted here, because you'd be crazy to say either unit is overcosted. If I'm wrong ignore this.

Marine bikes cost +7 points and provide relentless, TL, +1 T, and increase speed. Nothing else you listed is from the bike itself, but rather marine special rules.
Eldar bikes cost +8 points, provide all of the above, even greater speed, and an increased armor save.
For 1 more point, and being cheaper over all, eldar jetbikes provide way more than the marine bikes. They do not gain more special rules than eldar bikes, though the list might be longer because marines come standard with more than guardians. But that's not the argument you made. As for relevant rules...eldar bikes have the better ones.
It's been a complaint for a while now that eldar jetbikes provide more special rules than any other bike out there after all.

Yes sorry, typo on my part.
I did throw in several other comparisons later on that you seem to have neglected (Scout Bikes, Warbikes, DE Reavers) where they are comparably priced and get many similar or extra rules/abilities/equipment and that are not given the same vehement treatment as Wind Riders.

We can discuss the others if you want, but that just makes it a more complicated discussion and it's already complicated enough it seems.
I'll just say that, in general, no bike is given the following abilities;
Jetbike speed
Additional armor
Assault phase move
Ability for every model to take a heavy weapon
All on a cheap package. You might get some of these, but nobody gets all of these.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

I can't argue that the windriders are killier if you roll the pseudo-rend, but I disagree on the special weapon as 2 plasma guns firing once at 24" kill 1.10 MEQ, , Rapid Firing at 12" would be 2.2 MEQ, 2 Twin-linked Bolters rapid firing at 12" kill 0.59 MEQ, 2 T-L Shuriken Catapults at 12" kill 1.42 with the pseudo-rend. In my opinion that's a worthwhile purchase as it's 77% as effective at killing at twice the range or 155% as effective at the same range and is also more effective against TEQ, Vehicles than anything the Windriders can take.

Couple problems, again, with your suggestions.

1) Your numbers assume no cover. Cover is pretty prolific, and in general you can assume most infantry units will have access to at least a 5+ cover save. With a 5+ cover save, 2 plasma guns become as effective as 1 scat bike, while requiring being much closer and being much more expensive. So with cover, 2 plasma guns at 24" kill ~0.8 marines, meaning it will take 3 turns to kill 2.4-2.5. So it'll take 5 turns to pay for both bikes, quite a bit worse than the scat bike. They need rapid fire range to be effective, as stated.

2) Not every bike in the squad can take a plasma gun. Every jetbike can take a scat laser. If we compare unit output, the jetbikes will pull ahead. For the marines, you are taking some models that are just expensive bodies that hopefully die first.

3) There are some targets that plasma is better against. TEQs, sure (though TEQs are probably the rarest type of unit, since most models with a 2+ outside of HQs or Mcs are very weak offensively and overcosted). Most tanks? no.
Against av 10, 2 scat bikes do 2.67 HP not including cover. 2 plasma guns at 24" do 0.88, and rapid fire will double that.
Against av 11, 2 scat bikes do 1.78 HP not including cover. 2 plasma guns at 24" do 0.67, and rapid fire will double that.
Against av 12, 2 scat bikes do 0.88 HP not including cover. 2 plasma guns at 24" do 0.44, and rapid fire will double that.

So yeah, not really better against most tanks.

4) We were comparing standard issue jetbikes to standard issue marines. In this case, the jetbikes do a lot more damage for less (6 jetbikes compared to 5 marines, because jetbikes are cheaper will do more damage against MEQs).
We also compared special weapon marines to special weapon scatlasers. Which, as shown, the scatlasers out perform the Pg bikers for less points . 2 PG bikes should be comapred to 3 scat laser bikers, where it will get worse, if we are talking point cost.

For some reason, you decided to compare to pg bikers (how much are they? 60-70 points for two?) to two regular jetbikes to prove some kind of point. The jetbikes are nearly half the cost of the PG bikers.
You'll notice at equivalent point costs, the PG bikers are slightly worse than the standard jetbikes against MEQs, especially with cover introduced. The scat laser bikes, at equivalent point cost, are much better than the PG bikers against much more targets.
To prove something is better, you can't find one niche example (TEQ) and claim that makes one weapon superior. Especially if the other weapon does more damage against GEQ, MEQ, most Tanks, and all of that at a much longer range.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

I also wouldn't pay 100pts for 5 TL Bolter shots, but 5 TL Bolter shots that can move 12" then follow up with potentially 5 HoW attacks and 10 A on the charge into a unit I probably would.

That's extremely misleading and taken out of context.
I mentioned 100 points for 5 TL bolter shots because you mentioned bikers have superior range to jetbikes .
I stated that while, technically this is true, no one will use the 24" range because paying 100 points for 5 TL bolter shots is awful .
If you are stating that they need melee range to compete with jetbikes (and I agree, they do) than the effective range of a marine biker with standard gear is less than a jetbike .

Ace Rimmer wrote:

I brought up the Higher I in the first place, you ignored it before and I followed suit.

Right, along with grenades and the bolt pistol. None of those attributes matter because they generally don't come up. It's just a way to increase the list of benefits that a unit has, without them being meaningful benefits.
If bikes didn't have relentless, the pistol would matter. If they didn't always come with grav, the grenades would matter a lot more. If jetbikes could be caught in melee, their weak combat stats would matter.
None of these things are a big deal.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Added utility is never a bad thing, just because you have a superior option for targetting it, doesn't mean you're always going to be able to use it.

Added utility is worse if you pay for it, and marine bikers do pay for it. They have weaker offense for more points than jetbikes, a common problem with most marine units.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

I'm also not saying that grenades alone make them good, I'm saying that as a whole package, they come with greater utility through having more options.

Sure, and if they cost the same points this would matter. The frag grenades are good because cover, but the krak grenades rarely come up.
It's an advantage, I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just saying it's not relevant to how powerful the unit is, since it's a somewhat small advantage. It certainly doesn't beat the package that the jetbikes get.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Are you playing on an infinitely large table with no terrain other than the bit you are hiding jetbikes behind? I did mention this already but to reiiterate:- deepstrike, drop pods, flyers, jump infantry, infiltrators, scouts, outflanking all exist within game and offer ways to get up close and personal really quickly with the opponents deployment zone. If you're in their face, they have to decide between moving or shooting as 12" + 2d6" is unlikely to get them out of retalition range and even if they do turbo-boost, they run the risk of coming into range/LOS of other units.

Anything that deepstrikes accurately will get to shoot at the bikes of course. Neither unit can ignore deepstriking (no unit in the game can, unless interceptor) so this seems pointless to mention. Marine bikes are more resistant to small arms fire with their +1 T, but lose out to special weapons that tend to inflict more damage since they cost more per model, and wound on a 2+/3+ regardless of toughness (plasma, grav).
Flyers, infiltrators, scouts, and outflanking units will never reach the bikes in melee. They might be able to shoot at them for 1 turn, more if they are fast, but my original statement that jetbikes are nearly the fastest unit in the game still stands.
They are certainly faster than marine bikes, who have to tank all of those shots and can't hide since they need to be at a closer range and are slower.

Remember, this is a comparison.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Well if most competitive lists feature 20-40 bikes, why isn't anyone sensible enough to consider building a list that would feature something that is apparently going to be used a lot?

Honestly not sure what you are saying here. Look at some of the major tournies and you'll see 20+ scat bikes in every list.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

I never said the weapons didn't have to require LOS, I said long range or ignore LOS. I'm well aware Wraithguard and Fire Dragons are a thing as I own quite a few from when they were £1.75 for a blister pack. At 1850pts, going with 30 Scat Bikes (you said 20-40, so I went halfway) you have spent 75% on your points on 3 units of jetbikes, 5 fire dragons and 5 d-guard with a naked WS each so they might actually get near something to get to shoot at it. That leaves you 500pts to buy an HQ, the useful upgrades on the serpents and something else to actually put some models on the table so you're not hopelessly outnumbered.

Your example is again misleading.
6 units of 5 man jetbikes is ~750 points (don't want to post the actual number), which is a small number of the points invested for all of the anti-infantry you need in a list.
5 fire dragons and 5 d-guard with 2 wave serpents is all of the anti-tank most lists need.
500 points for an HQ is a lot. Outside of nids I can't imagine spending that much, it'll be closer to 200. I could, at that point, get some spiders, maybe another dragon+WS, WK, or something else that's quite strong.
In what way is 30 bikes, 5 dragons, 5 d-guard, 2 WS, a WK, and an HQ choice a bad list? That sounds similar to most competitive lists that you see to me.

Long range weapons will rarely be able to draw LoS to the jetbikes because of the scoot and shoot tactic. You need to ignore LoS or get closer.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

SM Bikes are 6 pts cheaper than a Scatterbike.

Please stop comparing standard issue marine bikes to special weapon jetbikes and vice versa, unless you will include damage output, range, and point cost .
Because 1 SM bike at rapid fire range does not come close to a scat bike at 3x the range .
2 SM bikes kill 0.59 MEQs at rapid fire range which is still worse than 1 scat bike, which is now much cheaper and still doing it at 3x the range. .

Ace Rimmer wrote:

The same things that remove marine bikes remove windriders, you just have to use some sort of strategy to place them/move them/transport them to where they can kill them.

Sure, but with windriders you need to move and think, or dedicate limited deepstriking units towards them, since they can stay 36" away and move in the assault phase behind LoS cover.
Marine bikes want to get much closer and can't hide in the assault phase. They are much easier to remove. That's all that I'm saying.
If one unit requires a strategy to remove and the other simply requires "apply melee/rapid fire PG to face" the former unit is tougher to remove.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Jetbikes are not an outright assault unit, S3 is not ideal for Melee, but against small units, shooting and then assaulting with them is useful, as softening them up, HoW and then their attacks on the charge is usually enough to break the enemy and force them off an objective or away from another unit. I frequently use them to as such to great effect.

Can't be that great an effect if you think marine bikers are better, and warbikes are comparable.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

I've tried running them a fire support, but frankly I find Dark Reapers better bang for buck as Str 8 Ap3 and Str 5 Ap 3 negates a lot of saves that the Scatbikes have to shoot through. The reapers usually make back their points by the end of turn 2 and with 3 smaller units, they can cover almost the entire board with their overlapping fire lanes. Forcing people to not enter an area once they've felt the dark reapers bite is equally useful.

Dark reapers are much easier to remove than scat lasers, and are only better against extremely heavy armor or MEQs outside of cover for the points.
It's why you don't see dark reapers in any competitive list. That and they are incredibly slow, so LoS blocking terrain destroys them.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

I don't really use Fire Dragons anymore as there aren't many AV14 users or terminators in my meta so my hawks, reapers and bright lances deal with the vehicles.

Bright lances are god awful, easily one of the worst anti-tank weapons in the game.
Hawks outperform scatbikes against AV values (and are much worse at everything else) but reapers aren't as good as scatbikes against most tanks. The AP3 doesn't matter, and scat bikes are faster, have higher strength, and more shots (unless going with the 1 str 8 shot, but then you lose out on a lot of shots and reapers only pull ahead at av 13-14, which are pretty rare. Jetbikes can hit side armor if they have to).
Fire dragons and hawks are the most commonly seen anti-tank units in a competitive meta for a reason. Reapers and brightlances? Nope.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

I'm seeing them used(and using them) as an objective grabber because they do that better than any other unit in game.

Dire Avengers are 18" range, not 12", can battle focus for added speed (not jetbike speed admittedly, but faster than whoever they are chasing/being chased by), and are actually very good as a unit.

Never said they were 12, I said they were short ranged. Half the range of a jetbike, slower, weaker offensively and defensively...they are a okay unit (good for a troop choice) but overshadowed by scat bikes in every way.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Swooping Hawks at a comparable cost (7 at 112, to 4 scatbikes at 108) would only put out about 1.56wounds, as opposed to the scat bikes 2.96, but have the haywire for much better anti-tank and anti-flyer, have battle focus so can potentially JSJ, move 18" and also have the deep strike large blast if they start in reserve or skyleap. I'm not saying they are the same, I'm saying they have other options to achieve or better the utility of Scatbikes within the codex.

So half the wounds is comparable? You can't use haywire against MCs either, which scat bikes are better against as well. Hawks are amazing for the haywire, and pretty much only the haywire.

And you've completely missed my point.
Look at all the units that Scatbikes can compete with and do quite well against. No unit, despite your claims, would be compared against so many other units to discuss it's effectiveness, because no other unit does as much as the scatbike does.
Against infantry, light and heavy, tanks up to AV 12, Mc's and GMC's, scatbikes are in the discussion for effective unit if not the most effective unit. No other unit in the eldar codex can do that .
In marines Cents are the only unit that can perform so many roles, and it's why they are widely considered the best unit in that codex.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

As for your unit assessment, Fire Dragons also kill MEQ/TEQ very efficiently, but otherwise you are right, too slow without a wave serpent.

No, they do not. 1 shot right away means they only hit with 3-4 shots, then you can roll 1's to hit, then cover. They cause about as many wounds as a scatbike squad, but require a WS and will be in retaliation range. Fire dragons need to go after a big juicy target to earn their points back, as they mostly fire once or twice before getting eliminated.

Ace Rimmer wrote:

Dark Reapers are a pretty good all-rounder, S8 ID's T4 multiwound models, wounds most MC's on a 2+ many of whom are only 3+ or worse, and now with Starhawk on the exarch have a good shot on fliers too. 2 Plasma missiles plus 4+ S5 AP3 shots hurts pretty much any infantry. They are also S&P so they can move and shoot and (not that you would) assault despite their heavy weapons. I have seen them used in a Wave Serpent to open up a flanking fire lane to great effect a couple of times, I've been toying with trying it myself.

Wraithguard is bang on the money, you can run away from them on foot.

I didn't have to reach for that many units, they were just the ones that I think offer a reasonably similar offensive output. I'd rather take Reapers and stick with cheap bikes to harass smaller unit and claim objectives. Warp Spiders actually were a good shout on your part, they are pretty comparable (S6, no AP) but are 8pts cheaper per model, get 2 less shots but are more effective against low I MC's, get a pseudo rend and get that ridiculous "oh no you shot me" run away rule as well as being jetpack infantry for JSJ.

Which is why you see spiders and hawks in competitive lists. You occasionally see wraithguard...never reapers. Spiders still don't have their offensive output in most situations, but have other uses that make them really good.
But in every competitive list you will see 20+ scatbikes, because of how many different roles the unit performs. No other unit in the eldar codex is seen in those numbers that frequently. Certainly not reapers.

Also, for a guy that uses brightlances, you are adopting a very condescending tone. Stop.





Basically to sum it up;
You are moving the goalposts. We originally were comparing marine bikes to jetbikes. Now you want to talk about other units in the eldar codex and other dexes, comparing 4+ units to the scatbike and saying because the unit is better in this one way, scatbikes aren't as good as they seem. That's crazy. There is no unit that has their toughness, firepower, range, speed, cheap cost, and is a troops choice. None.
No unit is so effective against a wide range of targets, except for WKs and Spiders, which you also commonly see taken. Hawks are taken because haywire is that good and hawks are fast, not for their anti-infantry power.
Dark reapers are above average in a codex that frequently hits best in show, and brightlances are just terrible.

You are using misleading examples. Comparing 60+ points of PG marine bikes to 30 points of standard jetbikes and declaring that PG bikes have better firepower. Comparing scatbikes to standard marine bikes and saying the standard marine bike has a lower cost (while neglecting to mention the fact that the marine biker has ~2/5 the firepower at 1/3 the range and is STILL slower).

You are taking me out of context constantly. I never said that 5 TL bolters was an effective use of marine bikers or that they shouldn't see melee, quite the opposite. You were the one claiming marine bikers have a better effective range than jetbikes and I was listing why that isn't really true, despite what you see on paper . Marine bikers need to be, mostly, under 12" or in melee to be effective, making them easier to remove than the 36" away jetbikes that moves in the assault phase.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
WHEN is that AP4 going to matter? A range of 36" with 4 shots is going to kill more infantry AND tanks. The AP4 will also matter never against a tank, which is the primary target for them.

And yes they ARE paying through the nose to get them. A standard Space Marine Biker is not much cheaper than a Scatterbike.

it matters much less now. But ap4 krak used to wreck Nids.

Add crisis suits to the list of units that nearly always earn their points back =)

Cheers!

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think there's a good case that Bikes, just in general, are rather overpowered. Between their speed, increased toughness, Relentless, generally toting either Twin Linked or Heavy weapons, and Jink ability, and their often relatively paltry price difference relative to footslotting equivalents, Bikes in general in almost every army (except maybe DE) could stand to take a rather substantial nerfing and still remain viable.

This. I think the game would change a lot if Bikes were either removed or had their higher Toughness and other abilities reduced.