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They do, yes.

Are they a heavy slot vs elite slot for mutis, then?

Yes, they are heavy whereas mutilators are elite.

If you were limited to one CAD then maybe this would make sense in a larger game, but your not. Rather than take mutilators I would rather take another CAD, Formation, or demon allies and get something useful.

Have played a game today. Not very competitive but there was noone else to play against as none of the opposition of mutilators was there to proove the point on the battlefield



Lord got Shred from mutation and nightfight warlord trait, sorc got nothing from mutaton and shrowding, hallucination and summoning,

1 Chaos. I got 1-st turn. Shrowding went off, didn't manage to summon + perilled and went superman on a 6. Moved forward, havoks glanced a chimera once. Score a bunch of VP for controliing objectives.
1 IG. Void shield went down from a devil dog's multimelta but shrowding, nightfight and cover saves led to only one spawn getting killed and one wound on another spawn. He scores no VP.
2 Chaos. I get to deepstrike 5 mutilators with re-roll from comms relay and do so very aggressively but all 5 scatter and 3 mishap. All 3 get delayed which is pretty nice. Shrowded goes off once again. Havoks score another glance on the chimera. Rhino goes flat-out towards a squad into a ruin to deny them overwatch and sorc with spawns try to make a 9" charge but fail. Lord and spawns multicharge sentinels and devil dog. Spawns shake and glance a devil dog and lord wrecks one sentinel with his power fist activating a dimensional key. Score a few more VP for controling objectives.
2 IG. He deepstrikes scions near my cultists but mishaps and gets misplaced - i put him into the corner on his side of the board. He stuns and glances a rhino - shrowding helps to survive. Than tries to kill a mutilator but it takes combined shooting from comsquad, chimera vets and lazcannon sentinels to kill one mutilator. The last sentinel gets wrecked by lord. He gets a point for first blood and killing a unit in shooting.
3 Chaos. I deepstrike all 4 mutilators within the dimensional key reach, cornering him completely. Move forwards with spawns for a multicharge on everything i can reach. CSM disembark and glance a leman russ with a melta. Havoks finish off a devil dog. Than i proceed multicharging stuff. Mutilator explodes a leman russ, spawns wreck vehicles here and there, sorc + spawns finally makes it to a squad in ruins and reaches another leman russ to boot, killing and wrecking everything.
3 IG. By this time he's got nowhere to run and is hopelessly behind on VP but he continues a game. Vets and comsquad kill 3 spawns, the rest of the list puts a wound on 2 mutilators. But than it's basically over.

Here's a pic from the start of 4-th turn

The purge can take only Mutilators? I did not know that.

That does change things up a bit.

Ironic that BA have a crowded elite section and CSM are fielding mutilators just to use the elite slot. Mirror images of bad.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The purge can take only Mutilators? I did not know that.

That does change things up a bit.

They can take 6 elite slots, 4 heavy support, a bunch of infantry.

 koooaei wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The purge can take only Mutilators? I did not know that.

That does change things up a bit.

They can take 6 elite slots, 4 heavy support, a bunch of infantry.

I did not know that. However my first thought to that was "Buy all the Blightkings and make a Nurgle Terminator Army".

Which book is this detachment in? I might have to get it.

EDIT:

Martel732 wrote:
Ironic that BA have a crowded elite section and CSM are fielding mutilators just to use the elite slot. Mirror images of bad.

Can you imagine if we still had the 3.5 dex's rules and Iron Warriors can take Elite-slot Obliterators with no restrictions? Especially if the Oblits got their old stats back. We'd have enough cheese to cover every Mcdonalds sandwich for the next 40 years.

 koooaei wrote:
[He] tries to kill a mutilator but it takes combined shooting from comsquad, chimera vets and lazcannon sentinels to kill one mutilator.

Ouch. That's upwards of 300pts to kill a 60pt model.

Pretty cool report koooai. Dimensional key for zero scatter DS was a nice touch.

 koooaei wrote:
Have played a game today. Not very competitive but there was noone else to play against as none of the opposition of mutilators was there to proove the point on the battlefield

Spoiler:

+++ (1496pts) +++

++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (The Purge) ++

Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Gift of mutation, Power Armour, Sigil of corruption, Spell familiar]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]

++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Chaos Lord [Bike, Dimensional Key, Gift of mutation, Lightning Claw, Power Armour, Power Fist, Sigil of corruption]
Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists with Autopistols]
Chaos Space Marines [3x Chaos Marine with Boltgun, 1x Chaos Marine with Meltagun], Aspiring Champion [Combi-melta]
+ Chaos Rhino [Dirge caster, Dozer Blade]
Chaos Spawn [Mark of Nurgle, 5x Spawn]
Chaos Spawn [Mark of Nurgle, 5x Spawn]
Havocs [4x Autocannon, 4x Havoc], Aspiring Champion [Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon]
Imperial Bunker [Comms Relay, Void Shield]

VS IG
company command [carapce armour, plasmagun x2, power weapon, standard]
+ Chimera
vets [melta x3]
+ Chimera [dozer]
vets [melta x3]
+ Chimera [dozer]
scions [10guys, 2 melta]
scions [10guys, 2 melta]
armoured sen [sentinels x2, lascannon x2]
armoured sen [sentinels x2, multilasers x2]
leman russ battle tank [bolter sponsons]
leman russ battle tank [bolter sponsons]
devil dog [multi melta, cammo netting]

total 1498

Lord got Shred from mutation and nightfight warlord trait, sorc got nothing from mutaton and shrowding, hallucination and summoning,

1 Chaos. I got 1-st turn. Shrowding went off, didn't manage to summon + perilled and went superman on a 6. Moved forward, havoks glanced a chimera once. Score a bunch of VP for controliing objectives.
1 IG. Void shield went down from a devil dog's multimelta but shrowding, nightfight and cover saves led to only one spawn getting killed and one wound on another spawn. He scores no VP.
2 Chaos. I get to deepstrike 5 mutilators with re-roll from comms relay and do so very aggressively but all 5 scatter and 3 mishap. All 3 get delayed which is pretty nice. Shrowded goes off once again. Havoks score another glance on the chimera. Rhino goes flat-out towards a squad into a ruin to deny them overwatch and sorc with spawns try to make a 9" charge but fail. Lord and spawns multicharge sentinels and devil dog. Spawns shake and glance a devil dog and lord wrecks one sentinel with his power fist activating a dimensional key. Score a few more VP for controling objectives.
2 IG. He deepstrikes scions near my cultists but mishaps and gets misplaced - i put him into the corner on his side of the board. He stuns and glances a rhino - shrowding helps to survive. Than tries to kill a mutilator but it takes combined shooting from comsquad, chimera vets and lazcannon sentinels to kill one mutilator. The last sentinel gets wrecked by lord. He gets a point for first blood and killing a unit in shooting.
3 Chaos. I deepstrike all 4 mutilators within the dimensional key reach, cornering him completely. Move forwards with spawns for a multicharge on everything i can reach. CSM disembark and glance a leman russ with a melta. Havoks finish off a devil dog. Than i proceed multicharging stuff. Mutilator explodes a leman russ, spawns wreck vehicles here and there, sorc + spawns finally makes it to a squad in ruins and reaches another leman russ to boot, killing and wrecking everything.
3 IG. By this time he's got nowhere to run and is hopelessly behind on VP but he continues a game. Vets and comsquad kill 3 spawns, the rest of the list puts a wound on 2 mutilators. But than it's basically over.

Here's a pic from the start of 4-th turn

It seems most of the heavy lifting came from your Sorceror and Spawns, cuz I see them getting repeatedly mentioned. That is actually honestly surprising since I was expecting the spawns to drop like flies and be little more than tarpits, but they killed a lot. The mutilators though performed more or less as I expected; they ate up roughly 400 points (including the Dimensional key needed to help them not-mishap) and did little other than explode a Russ less than half their points and fork over a few VPs.

If you got the chance, maybe try it out by replacing the muties with some cultists and more spawns?

Well. they wrecked sentinels, chimera and ate overwatch from 2 other squads. They were fine.

Spawns are great too. They need an anvil though.

It was also about as horribly a Guard list as one could possibly make... (seriously, no Wyverns? aren't those a mandatory 2+ in every single IG list circa 2013/14?!)

Muties are fine and dandy against the lowliest levels of opposing lists.
They're not worth the toilet paper they're printed on against anything from Necrons and on however.


One thing I think that would be helpful for them, (and by extension ALL the 'Daemon' CSM units), would be to replace their marks with the actual "Daemon of 'X'" rules.
Remove the utterly crippling tiny unit size cap, (make them 1-6 for feth's sake!), and obviously Slow & Purposeful (which has 0 place on an ASSAULT unit in the first place!), and they'd be a fun, decent unit to take.

Experiment 626 wrote:
It was also about as horribly a Guard list as one could possibly make... (seriously, no Wyverns? aren't those a mandatory 2+ in every single IG list circa 2013/14?!)

Muties are fine and dandy against the lowliest levels of opposing lists.
They're not worth the toilet paper they're printed on against anything from Necrons and on however.


One thing I think that would be helpful for them, (and by extension ALL the 'Daemon' CSM units), would be to replace their marks with the actual "Daemon of 'X'" rules.
Remove the utterly crippling tiny unit size cap, (make them 1-6 for feth's sake!), and obviously Slow & Purposeful (which has 0 place on an ASSAULT unit in the first place!), and they'd be a fun, decent unit to take.

I would give the enemy list the benefit of the doubt as like dice rolls, you never know if your opponent will bring a soul-crushing cheese list or something noob.

However my main concern is that the Muties didn't seem to even earn back their points (and actually forked over two VPs) even against this kind of a list (speaking of which, I thought it was the Spawns and Lord that destroyed those sentinels). My Vindicators win back their points every time the cannon fires.

Experiment 626 wrote:

It was also about as horribly a Guard list as one could possibly make... (seriously, no Wyverns? aren't those a mandatory 2+ in every single IG list circa 2013/14?!)

I don't mind playing against other lists. Want a match?

#MutilatorShame2016




Automatically Appended Next Post:
More hilarity here... Huron infiltrates 3x MoK (!) Mutilators who proceed to make short work of a CSM list.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184601

Bonus points for the defeated player referring to "infiltratin' gangsta mutilators"

 koooaei wrote:
Have played a game today. Not very competitive but there was noone else to play against as none of the opposition of mutilators was there to proove the point on the battlefield

Spoiler:

+++ (1496pts) +++

++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (The Purge) ++

Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Gift of mutation, Power Armour, Sigil of corruption, Spell familiar]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]

++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Chaos Lord [Bike, Dimensional Key, Gift of mutation, Lightning Claw, Power Armour, Power Fist, Sigil of corruption]
Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists with Autopistols]
Chaos Space Marines [3x Chaos Marine with Boltgun, 1x Chaos Marine with Meltagun], Aspiring Champion [Combi-melta]
+ Chaos Rhino [Dirge caster, Dozer Blade]
Chaos Spawn [Mark of Nurgle, 5x Spawn]
Chaos Spawn [Mark of Nurgle, 5x Spawn]
Havocs [4x Autocannon, 4x Havoc], Aspiring Champion [Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon]
Imperial Bunker [Comms Relay, Void Shield]

VS IG
company command [carapce armour, plasmagun x2, power weapon, standard]
+ Chimera
vets [melta x3]
+ Chimera [dozer]
vets [melta x3]
+ Chimera [dozer]
scions [10guys, 2 melta]
scions [10guys, 2 melta]
armoured sen [sentinels x2, lascannon x2]
armoured sen [sentinels x2, multilasers x2]
leman russ battle tank [bolter sponsons]
leman russ battle tank [bolter sponsons]
devil dog [multi melta, cammo netting]

total 1498

Spoiler:

Lord got Shred from mutation and nightfight warlord trait, sorc got nothing from mutaton and shrowding, hallucination and summoning,

1 Chaos. I got 1-st turn. Shrowding went off, didn't manage to summon + perilled and went superman on a 6. Moved forward, havoks glanced a chimera once. Score a bunch of VP for controliing objectives.
1 IG. Void shield went down from a devil dog's multimelta but shrowding, nightfight and cover saves led to only one spawn getting killed and one wound on another spawn. He scores no VP.
2 Chaos. I get to deepstrike 5 mutilators with re-roll from comms relay and do so very aggressively but all 5 scatter and 3 mishap. All 3 get delayed which is pretty nice. Shrowded goes off once again. Havoks score another glance on the chimera. Rhino goes flat-out towards a squad into a ruin to deny them overwatch and sorc with spawns try to make a 9" charge but fail. Lord and spawns multicharge sentinels and devil dog. Spawns shake and glance a devil dog and lord wrecks one sentinel with his power fist activating a dimensional key. Score a few more VP for controling objectives.
2 IG. He deepstrikes scions near my cultists but mishaps and gets misplaced - i put him into the corner on his side of the board. He stuns and glances a rhino - shrowding helps to survive. Than tries to kill a mutilator but it takes combined shooting from comsquad, chimera vets and lazcannon sentinels to kill one mutilator. The last sentinel gets wrecked by lord. He gets a point for first blood and killing a unit in shooting.
3 Chaos. I deepstrike all 4 mutilators within the dimensional key reach, cornering him completely. Move forwards with spawns for a multicharge on everything i can reach. CSM disembark and glance a leman russ with a melta. Havoks finish off a devil dog. Than i proceed multicharging stuff. Mutilator explodes a leman russ, spawns wreck vehicles here and there, sorc + spawns finally makes it to a squad in ruins and reaches another leman russ to boot, killing and wrecking everything.
3 IG. By this time he's got nowhere to run and is hopelessly behind on VP but he continues a game. Vets and comsquad kill 3 spawns, the rest of the list puts a wound on 2 mutilators. But than it's basically over.

Here's a pic from the start of 4-th turn

It seems that the Mutilators charged on the same turn they arrived from reserves, isn't that against the rules or is there something there I'm missing?

{EDIT} Found it, guessing the mutilator that charged was one which arrived on turn 2

 koooaei wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

It was also about as horribly a Guard list as one could possibly make... (seriously, no Wyverns? aren't those a mandatory 2+ in every single IG list circa 2013/14?!)

I don't mind playing against other lists. Want a match?

I not in the 'Mutilators are useless trash' camp myself... I honestly think they can be used decently in strictly non-competitive style games, where they do indeed function well enough as solo/dual Deep Strikers.

But that's really it. Outside of being essentially pawns and playing against other really watered down lists, they just have too much working against them to be functional - especially against the 7.5 Decurion/Gladius styled lists!
They're too slow on their own to be used effectively as the beatstick line breaker they're meant to be. Bikers, Spawn, Raptors, allied Daemons/Gorepack, etc... all do that job better and aren't reliant on a 230+pts delivery system.
They're too random as compared to other specialised assault units, as you're forced to change-up their weapon option each phase.
They have little to no synergies within their own codex. Take them as allies to a Chaos Daemons army though, and suddenly they get perks! (ie: Icons for D6" scatter, Instruments for chaining Reserves, amazing Psychic supports, Grimoire, etc...)

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

I would give the enemy list the benefit of the doubt as like dice rolls, you never know if your opponent will bring a soul-crushing cheese list or something noob.

However my main concern is that the Muties didn't seem to even earn back their points (and actually forked over two VPs) even against this kind of a list (speaking of which, I thought it was the Spawns and Lord that destroyed those sentinels). My Vindicators win back their points every time the cannon fires.

This is why it's so important nowadays to take a few minutes and be upfront with opponents about what you're looking for out of a game.

Vs. another strictly non-serious list, the Mutilator can function reasonably well, as they did soak up more firepower than they were worth against that very low key IG list. (a pair of Wyverns + Pask-Punisher would have munched those Spawns!)
Against a Marine list running lots of grav, or an MSU'd Eldar list or other 'competitive' list? They're more than likely dead weight & wasted points. (at least Plasmacide Termies for example can nuke something juicy when they DS into play, while Obsec Possessed can take/hold Objectives, etc...)

Experiment 626 wrote:
This is why it's so important nowadays to take a few minutes and be upfront with opponents about what you're looking for out of a game.

Vs. another strictly non-serious list, the Mutilator can function reasonably well, as they did soak up more firepower than they were worth against that very low key IG list. (a pair of Wyverns + Pask-Punisher would have munched those Spawns!)
Against a Marine list running lots of grav, or an MSU'd Eldar list or other 'competitive' list? They're more than likely dead weight & wasted points. (at least Plasmacide Termies for example can nuke something juicy when they DS into play, while Obsec Possessed can take/hold Objectives, etc...)

If you've read the past 10 or so pages, the pro camp basically ignored every scenario that doesn't favor mutilators over other types of troops and, in one case, deliberately made Terminators overspend on equipment just to prove the Mutilator's superiority.

Mutilators aren't superior to Terminators.

Units are just tools to produce effects, and the idea is you use different tools in different situations.

Basically, don't blame a crowbar for not being a hammer.

Yoyoyo wrote:Mutilators aren't superior to Terminators.

Units are just tools to produce effects, and the idea is you use different tools in different situations.

Basically, don't blame a crowbar for not being a hammer.

The quote below implies differently:

Yoyoyo wrote:I think we can do better. If you really want to see which unit outperforms the other, let's try and set up the most accurate comparison we can.

At 183pts you get 3x Nurgle Mutilators with the Mutilators Weapons rule, for 177pts you get 3x Nurgle Terminators each with a LC and Chainfist.

Mutilators have twice the # of wounds and Fear, while Terminators have Chaos Boons and aren't saddled by SnP. Melee output should be identical given no casualties. Damage falloff is more severe for the Terminators. There are some tradeoffs in the 'Mutilator Weapons" rules compared to the Terminators, which have permanent access to a LC and Chainfist. Pretty fair though. Neither can sweep, the Terminators cost 6pts less, and they have +1LD.

So which is the better pure multirole CC unit? I'll let you two decide, but I think this is a better comparison for discussion. If you want Mutilators, you aren't choosing them for Combi-Meltas and a min Chainfist.

That was an example of what I mean by "ignored every scenario that doesn't favor mutilators over other types of troops". Whenever we put the Muties in a scenario that would realistically happen or compare a unit that can approach the same problem from a much more effective or point-efficient angle (such as Terminators that can shoot people with Meltas), it gets either brushed off as "not being the same role" or just completely ignored. Yes, the terminators would suck if they had to be restricted to pretend they're mutilators, but that doesn't innately mean Mutilators would be good for that situation either. "Pure Multi-role CC unit"? A Chaos Lord can do better for the same points. A Forge Fiend doesn't even need to get into CC range to be multi-role, namely because those two can actually catch the stuff they need to and can catch stuff that other things can't catch.

Finally, that whole "don't blame a crowbar for not being a hammer" analogy is very off. As it stands, a Mutilator is a tool without a purpose. Other things in the codex can either perform the same job better (which, surprisingly, is the Spawn of all things), perform it's job and something else (terminators with min. melee weapons and a combi weapon) or achieve the same ends through different means (anything with a decent gun). We're not blaming the Mutilator for not being a role it's not suppose to do, we're blaming it because the job it can do is both so obscure and inconsequential that it's taking resources away from other units to do their jobs (it's effectively only good against units that can't cause a lot of S8 wounds in a single turn, has no good guns, and walks slowly...which is basically other Mutilators). So no, we're not blaming mutilators for not being a hammer when it's a crowbar. We're saying we don't need crowbars and we're keep getting examples where the situation for a hammer is continually adjusted so a Crowbar can do it.

Plus there's the need to try and shoehorn as much into the unit as you can. On another forum I was debating how Plague Marines made the Vanilla Marines useless, and one person said that to get 10 Plague Marines with two Plasma Guns is much more expensive than 10 Marines with two Plasma Guns and MoN. There were several things off with that:
1. Plague Marines are Fearless, so you don't need to max out the Rhino they travel in.
2. The Plague Marines get their guns at minimum size anyway.
3. They end being cheaper that way, surprisingly.
So we end up with 5 Plague Marines with two Plasma Guns are the main direct comparison between the two. They also end up being tougher (T5 + FNP + Fearless for not running away + Being easier to hide in cover). The only thing you get more of is Bolters, and why get them that way? You're not low on Bolters in the first place

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus there's the need to try and shoehorn as much into the unit as you can. On another forum I was debating how Plague Marines made the Vanilla Marines useless, and one person said that to get 10 Plague Marines with two Plasma Guns is much more expensive than 10 Marines with two Plasma Guns and MoN. There were several things off with that:
1. Plague Marines are Fearless, so you don't need to max out the Rhino they travel in.
2. The Plague Marines get their guns at minimum size anyway.
3. They end being cheaper that way, surprisingly.
So we end up with 5 Plague Marines with two Plasma Guns are the main direct comparison between the two. They also end up being tougher (T5 + FNP + Fearless for not running away + Being easier to hide in cover). The only thing you get more of is Bolters, and why get them that way? You're not low on Bolters in the first place

Indeed, Plague Marines are still one of the better units in the codex. And even with those excessive spending, 10 Plague Marines with 2 Plasma Guns with a rhino can still reasonably threaten anything near their point range, as well as claim objectives and be damn hard to shift. 10 regular plasma marines, especially without VotLW? Not so much.

It's for purposes of comparison Slayer.

Identical effects mean you are restricted to sizing up the platform and its relative price, you aren't comparing a Plague unit with a plasma gun to a CSM unit with a power sword.

Once units have different effects they will outperform each other in different situations, and as a wargame the player's job is to manufacture situations conducive to winning.

You're literally missing the point.

We want AT, and striking hard in melee. Therefore, you don't NEED 5 Chainfists in the same squad because you want it. You buy 1-2 and use Combi-Melta in unison.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's for purposes of comparison Slayer.

Identical effects mean you are restricted to sizing up the platform and its relative price, you aren't comparing a Plague unit with a plasma gun to a CSM unit with a power sword.

Once units have different effects they will outperform each other in different situations, and as a wargame the player's job is to manufacture situations conducive to winning.

Yes, to manufacture a situation conducive to winning is a Wargamer's job. Unfortunately, any situation where you place yourself into where Mutilators are superior, point for point, to something else is intentionally going against this. I will reiterate, yet again for the third page, the situation in which Mutilators would be superior to Chaos Terminators means you're ignoring the options Chaos Terminators have and you're ignoring their abilities. This is anything but fair, because the point cost for a unit isn't just for what it has, but also what it has access to. Chaos Terminators PAY points for the ability to run in the shooting phase if they can't shoot anything. They PAY points for the ability to buy a Land Raider and not use a HS slot. They pay for having the option of choosing their weapons, and they pay for being able to shoot in the first place. They also pay for the ability to choose what to do in those situations. And even in that example, those options don't just disappear. Forcing them to chase after a specific target as the Mutilators, then claiming they don't do it well enough, is just backwards. Where's the Fairness for the Chaos Terminators?

In that example, let's reverse it:

The Chaos Terminators take a Reaper Autocannon, bump themselves up to a 5 man squad doing so. They take Combi-meltas on the rest, and take 2 Chainfists in the unit while everyone else uses Power Swords. They take Mark of Tzeentch instead of Mark of Nurgle because they're not afraid of ID. Comes to 232 points.

The closest you can get with Mutilators is 252, which is 4 of them with Mark of Tzeentch(probably split into 2 units instead of 4, "to be fair" to the Terminators).

Neither unit gets access to a Transport, but they can teleport in. They have to hunt down several Chimeras and then deal with a few Leman Russes coming at them.

The Terminators can DS in and immediately engage the Chimeras with the Reaper Autocannon and can advance on the Russes. Their Combi-Bolters also lets them threaten the Chimeras still at range as long as they're not shooting at the front armor. The Reaper Autocannon can also threaten the rear armor of the russ, so it either has to turn around now to face the Terminators (and thus revealing it to forces on the other side) or leave it be and be susceptible to rear-armor shooting. The Mutilators can do nothing this turn, as they have no guns and cannot run. The mutilators are also vulnerable to the Leman Russ's Battle Cannon as, while they will have their armor save against it, they will instantly die because they are T4. The russ will also not care about turning around for the Mutilators, as they will hit it on the rear armor regardless of which way the russ is looking, so it will continue to hold it's AV14 towards your other troops. In addition, since not all of the units are holding the crucial Chainfist and Autocannons, they can tank wounds for those that do, letting them survive longer without lowering overall combat effectiveness. Mutilators start losing combat effectiveness the moment the unit takes more than 1 wound (or takes an ID wound).

The above scenario doesn't sound very fair to the Mutilators does it? That's because they're being forced to neglect options available to them. They're not even being restricted in abilities like the Terminators were. To make the fight more "fair" in this case, the Mutilators should be allowed to take MoN instead of MoT and split up into 4 units of 1. That is fair because while the two units can't do exactly the same thing, they can mitigate their lack in one area to strengthen another area. Your example with the Terminators was unfair for this specific reason; you were forcing them to neglect their own options and abilities for the sake of playing along with the Mutilators.

(and, to be honest, even with all of that going for the Mutilators, they still won't be very effective in that since the only thing they would mitigate is the ID. Everything else will more or less stay the same).

EDIT: Forgot to add Mark of Tzeentch to the Mutilators

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If you were limited to one CAD then maybe this would make sense in a larger game, but your not. Rather than take mutilators I would rather take another CAD, Formation, or demon allies and get something useful.

You're asking why I don't ally myself? Why? I've told you that I have.

In fact what I use is (and i alluded to it earlier) a Chaos Space Marine army with a Black Legion Allied Detachment. What you're suggesting costs me more Chaos Marines which i don't need just to fford NOT choosing a very good option for my strategy. why would I do that? Between the cost of them and their rhino, it simply doesn't help my plan to spend those extra points all in some effort to avoid an obvious choice, the Mutilator.

Strategy is the issue here.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Have played a game today. Not very competitive but there was noone else to play against as none of the opposition of mutilators was there to proove the point on the battlefield

Spoiler:

+++ (1496pts) +++

++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (The Purge) ++

Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Gift of mutation, Power Armour, Sigil of corruption, Spell familiar]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]

++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Chaos Lord [Bike, Dimensional Key, Gift of mutation, Lightning Claw, Power Armour, Power Fist, Sigil of corruption]
Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists with Autopistols]
Chaos Space Marines [3x Chaos Marine with Boltgun, 1x Chaos Marine with Meltagun], Aspiring Champion [Combi-melta]
+ Chaos Rhino [Dirge caster, Dozer Blade]
Chaos Spawn [Mark of Nurgle, 5x Spawn]
Chaos Spawn [Mark of Nurgle, 5x Spawn]
Havocs [4x Autocannon, 4x Havoc], Aspiring Champion [Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon]
Imperial Bunker [Comms Relay, Void Shield]

VS IG
company command [carapce armour, plasmagun x2, power weapon, standard]
+ Chimera
vets [melta x3]
+ Chimera [dozer]
vets [melta x3]
+ Chimera [dozer]
scions [10guys, 2 melta]
scions [10guys, 2 melta]
armoured sen [sentinels x2, lascannon x2]
armoured sen [sentinels x2, multilasers x2]
leman russ battle tank [bolter sponsons]
leman russ battle tank [bolter sponsons]
devil dog [multi melta, cammo netting]

total 1498

Lord got Shred from mutation and nightfight warlord trait, sorc got nothing from mutaton and shrowding, hallucination and summoning,

1 Chaos. I got 1-st turn. Shrowding went off, didn't manage to summon + perilled and went superman on a 6. Moved forward, havoks glanced a chimera once. Score a bunch of VP for controliing objectives.
1 IG. Void shield went down from a devil dog's multimelta but shrowding, nightfight and cover saves led to only one spawn getting killed and one wound on another spawn. He scores no VP.
2 Chaos. I get to deepstrike 5 mutilators with re-roll from comms relay and do so very aggressively but all 5 scatter and 3 mishap. All 3 get delayed which is pretty nice. Shrowded goes off once again. Havoks score another glance on the chimera. Rhino goes flat-out towards a squad into a ruin to deny them overwatch and sorc with spawns try to make a 9" charge but fail. Lord and spawns multicharge sentinels and devil dog. Spawns shake and glance a devil dog and lord wrecks one sentinel with his power fist activating a dimensional key. Score a few more VP for controling objectives.
2 IG. He deepstrikes scions near my cultists but mishaps and gets misplaced - i put him into the corner on his side of the board. He stuns and glances a rhino - shrowding helps to survive. Than tries to kill a mutilator but it takes combined shooting from comsquad, chimera vets and lazcannon sentinels to kill one mutilator. The last sentinel gets wrecked by lord. He gets a point for first blood and killing a unit in shooting.
3 Chaos. I deepstrike all 4 mutilators within the dimensional key reach, cornering him completely. Move forwards with spawns for a multicharge on everything i can reach. CSM disembark and glance a leman russ with a melta. Havoks finish off a devil dog. Than i proceed multicharging stuff. Mutilator explodes a leman russ, spawns wreck vehicles here and there, sorc + spawns finally makes it to a squad in ruins and reaches another leman russ to boot, killing and wrecking everything.
3 IG. By this time he's got nowhere to run and is hopelessly behind on VP but he continues a game. Vets and comsquad kill 3 spawns, the rest of the list puts a wound on 2 mutilators. But than it's basically over.

Here's a pic from the start of 4-th turn

Yup. Box of doom. The Mutilators work well for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:Mutilators aren't superior to Terminators.

Units are just tools to produce effects, and the idea is you use different tools in different situations.

Basically, don't blame a crowbar for not being a hammer.

The quote below implies differently:

Yoyoyo wrote:I think we can do better. If you really want to see which unit outperforms the other, let's try and set up the most accurate comparison we can.

At 183pts you get 3x Nurgle Mutilators with the Mutilators Weapons rule, for 177pts you get 3x Nurgle Terminators each with a LC and Chainfist.

Mutilators have twice the # of wounds and Fear, while Terminators have Chaos Boons and aren't saddled by SnP. Melee output should be identical given no casualties. Damage falloff is more severe for the Terminators. There are some tradeoffs in the 'Mutilator Weapons" rules compared to the Terminators, which have permanent access to a LC and Chainfist. Pretty fair though. Neither can sweep, the Terminators cost 6pts less, and they have +1LD.

So which is the better pure multirole CC unit? I'll let you two decide, but I think this is a better comparison for discussion. If you want Mutilators, you aren't choosing them for Combi-Meltas and a min Chainfist.

That was an example of what I mean by "ignored every scenario that doesn't favor mutilators over other types of troops". Whenever we put the Muties in a scenario that would realistically happen or compare a unit that can approach the same problem from a much more effective or point-efficient angle (such as Terminators that can shoot people with Meltas), it gets either brushed off as "not being the same role" or just completely ignored. Yes, the terminators would suck if they had to be restricted to pretend they're mutilators, but that doesn't innately mean Mutilators would be good for that situation either. "Pure Multi-role CC unit"? A Chaos Lord can do better for the same points. A Forge Fiend doesn't even need to get into CC range to be multi-role, namely because those two can actually catch the stuff they need to and can catch stuff that other things can't catch.

Finally, that whole "don't blame a crowbar for not being a hammer" analogy is very off. As it stands, a Mutilator is a tool without a purpose. Other things in the codex can either perform the same job better (which, surprisingly, is the Spawn of all things), perform it's job and something else (terminators with min. melee weapons and a combi weapon) or achieve the same ends through different means (anything with a decent gun). We're not blaming the Mutilator for not being a role it's not suppose to do, we're blaming it because the job it can do is both so obscure and inconsequential that it's taking resources away from other units to do their jobs (it's effectively only good against units that can't cause a lot of S8 wounds in a single turn, has no good guns, and walks slowly...which is basically other Mutilators). So no, we're not blaming mutilators for not being a hammer when it's a crowbar. We're saying we don't need crowbars and we're keep getting examples where the situation for a hammer is continually adjusted so a Crowbar can do it.

Did this all make sense to you when you read it out loud to yourself? Do you not understand that he is trying to tell you that the effect I am paying points for is the best tool for that effect and you are changing the discussion when you DEMAND that the effect I need be different? It's absurd to tell me that! Do you understand that this is what he is telling you?

Or in the case of BA, box of mild annoyance until the opponent gets their turn and shoots me off the table.

Mutilators > BA


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry dude!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:


Yes, to manufacture a situation conducive to winning is a Wargamer's job.

If you had just stopped right there, you'd have been right. Ya' didn't. You "yeah but"'d him.

THIS is why the Mutilators work so well. You are using them to force the strategy of Saturation with diminished return for the enemies efforts in stopping it. And it works. You can say it doesn't til the cows come home. You can say it's only done in "non-competitive metas, but mine isn't one.

This level of disregard won't serve you well when it's done to you. When it is, you won't have the luxury of the internet to tell you you're "so right". Lol. You'll have the same hard choices to make that saturatin forces on everyone. Saturation only matters if the units involved are pretty capable of damage dealing. Mutilators fit that bill. Tying things up? Also a redeeming quality. wasteful of enemy resources? good times.

I don't know what army you play most of the time. What I do know is that

A: You don't need Mutilators to win, but they will win for you if your strategy makes them useful.
B: Your strategy dictates the right units. Always.

So if you want to know the secret of Mutilators, there it is. Apply yourself strategically to the problem instead of being a Codex-nay sayer like the rest of them. Strategy is the thing. it's everything you should be considering when you look at a unit. Every list and idea is a case study. Learn instead of shutting your mind off. Maybe you dont NEED Mutilators for the list you have and if so, i think thats super. Saying you cant use them or "shouldn't" is another matter. That's just a closed mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Or in the case of BA, box of mild annoyance until the opponent gets their turn and shoots me off the table.

You really need to cheer up. Lol.