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I ran it in a small scale battle (750 points VS 6th edition Vanilla Space Marines in a CAD) but the thing was I ran only helbrutes.

It was like benny hill especially since his heavy weapons couldn't reliably engage them anymore (cuz they were, in his words, popping out of the woodwork).

EDIT: I just ran the vanilla DV Helbrutes with the multimelta since I didn't have converted ones or the money to buy the newer ones (I'd have prefered to go full CC). Also forgot to mention I was unbound, since otherwise my entire army would have been held back in reserve.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I'm not sure that Helbrute formation is better. Seems like you'd have to test that.

I tried them once and they didn't do much. They're pretty random as they have to roll on a frenzied table every turn - that's my main issue with them. 1/3 chance to not do what you want them to do. And they're vehicles, so have quite mediocre durability for the points. I've had much better results with a murderpack formation.

I know that one game is not enough but i don't have faith in them Now the 5 helbrute squad has some potential with psy buffs. I've had them perform good vs droppod nidzilla and SM smashfether+bikers without H&R. The combination i used was 3 with fist+melta, one with fist + flamer + scourge and champ with 2 fists + flamer.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I'm not sure that Helbrute formation is better. Seems like you'd have to test that.

I faced helbrutes a few times. The Deep Striking was very cool. Only trouble was, they cost a LOT more and of course you had to take them in that formation so it is kind of a heavier investment. It would sap a fairly significant part of the list for me to use it instead.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I don't know why you are bringing up sternguard or assault centurions, unless you, once again, aren't reading what people are typing.

Here's why:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's functionally the CSM version of Drop Pod Sternguards, but a bit more risky as nothing in the CSM codex has mishap mitigation.

I thought it was a very valid comparison from Mecha. And yes, I read what he typed, apparently you didn't. Maybe consider your own fallibility and tone down the snark.

You may want to make it clear that you're referencing someone else. Since, you know, you quoted me directly and immediately mentioned sternguard in the original opening remark and then brought it up later, all without mentioning you were talking to/about anyone else's comments. It was all even in one sentence after a quote from me.
Which would be pretty obvious if you quoted the entire thing, or even mentioned MechaEmperor at all.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Next, "DS element" specifically refers to a DS element in the context of koooaei and Jancoran's strategy.

It does?
The part where I quoted you (and you notice I quoted the entire part) didn't include any such conditions.

Regardless, I don't see what bearing this has on what I stated. The oblits and warptalons are pretty much the only other choices, and what I stated can be related to their strategy or separately. Warp talons are awful, oblits are good. I'm not sure if I'd take them as a single unit (maybe if you get multiple CADs?) since they are often the only good HS option we have outside of tanks (where you want to spam transports for armor saturation, not mutilators) and havoks (who don't really support the mutilators much or really anything else).

Yoyoyo wrote:

So don't ignore context and cherry pick yourself.

No context was ever supplied by you.
You'll notice I quoted the entire part and replied to everything that you stated, so no cherry picking was performed. Next time, you may want to provide some context if what you are saying relies on it.

And besides, nothing I said doesn't apply to their strategy. There is nothing stated you can't take a few mutilators and use termicide, for example, to target a tank or MC that might reliably threaten the Mutilators. Muties don't like most Mc's in CC, since the MCs are usually faster and ignore their 2+ save.
Maybe tone down the anger a bit.

Yoyoyo wrote:

The Termicide option and even Oblits have been sized up already. Reference koooaei's comments about threat saturation and positioning, and Martel's comments about being a cost-effective bullet sponge.

The termicide option was never fully explored in the context of DS options, only as a CC bully with a very specific loadout. Saying it was sized up isn't really true at all.
If you are including oblits, I have to assume we are looking at the whole package and not just the CC bully options, since no one would take oblits for their CC prowess. Oblits can serve just fine as target saturation choices as well, although 3 termies with combi are more expensive than a single mutilator with MoN. Still, you could include a mixture of both.

Yoyoyo wrote:

You can't just see "CC bully" and forget about these other points we're using to compare value.

You specifically mentioned it's a CC bully able to take on any unit it encounters in a cost effective manner. You'll notice I quoted that part specifically so you could see what I'm addressing.
It's not. A mutilator is useful because it's cheap and provides target saturation, but it's not a CC bully. It certainly can't target any unit.

I didn't forget the other points, I included them, but you calling them a CC bully is simply not a strength of theirs. They need to target units that are weak in CC or stationary tanks.
If taken against say, Space Wolves, they couldn't charge grey hunters without dying before swinging, and thats their basic infantry. Possibly Long Fangs, but you don't see them taken as much anymore. I don't think they could take down chaos marines with true grit either. They are certainly not CC bullies, but this doesn't discount their usage as a saturation unit entirely and I don't think anyone claimed otherwise.

Let's stick to what people typed and not strawman them.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Daemon Prince is a fail on threat saturation,

Agreed, probably why I mentioned that it isn't cheap (so fails at threat saturation) and merely mentioned it in the context of a CC bully.

Yoyoyo wrote:

can't charge as many targets and is far less durable for the points.

It's true, a Daemon prince can't charge as many targets as 3 mutilators can (ideally).

In practice, a DP can probably charge a many different types of targets (certainly more than the mutilator is capable of, depending on the DPs loadout which is pretty much all I was saying in regards to the DP).
Even in the Battle report we saw, 6 only charged a few units over the course of the game. Certainly not more than a DP could be made to charge over a battle.

As for being far tougher for the points, that isn't always true. Remember, many DPs can fly and can gain a very good cover save. The difference between a 3+ to hit to a 6+ to hit is big, especially when few weapons are capable of dealing reliable wounds on either. Mutilators are weaker against grav weapons, which are common if you face marines. DPs also have access to powers that can make them invisible, or raise their stats to the point where they are much tougher than a mutilator. Not to mention, being so much faster, they can utilize LoS blocking cover a lot better than the mutilator.

So, far tougher is a bit of an exaggeration. I'd say the DP is a bit risky, but can be made to be tougher than the mutilator if the right powers are rolled. Probably why everyone goes for the special character or just a Black Mace one with wings.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Same to Warp Talons, both these units are 3+.

Agreed, Warp Talons are awful. Easily the worst unit in the dex. Pretty much all that's worth saying about them, but if we are talking DS options we might as well be complete.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Sternguard and Termicide do have earlier impact with Melta on the drop, but they are less durable and less capable in CC.

Sure, I think everyone is saying the same thing. Sternguard are probably some of the best DSing units you can take outside of centurions, but they aren't very durable at all. Certainly lack CC by a huge amount in comparison.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Assault Cents serve the same purpose as a dangerous CC, they'd be a great analogue but they need a Drop Pod and can't run solo. So they don't really match either. Lictors are probably a better true analogue, max dispersion and a dedicated CC profile.

Why don't we stick to CSM or Daemons? It's the only units we are likely to see in a CSM list. Let's not broaded the scope of the argument to include Assault Cents or Lictors.

Yoyoyo wrote:

That's my take on it. Do try and control your outbursts a little, maybe even play the strategy so you understand how it works better. I am enjoying the more productive side of this discussion and I'd prefer to see the thread not get locked.

No offense, but you burst into the thread a while back and accused people of involving themselves in a pseudo-intellectual dick measuring contest right from the start.
I don't think you should lecture anyone in regards to outbursts.

You should really try quoting people in their entirety, or mention people by name if you don't want to, so you don't take people out of context. I don't want to accuse you of strawmanning, I think it's the nature of your posting style, but it does keep happening, Even in this post.

Just let it go dude.

I have nothing against you personally, but I'm not reading all that.

If you drop them close enough with a ranged weapon, they actually do surprisingly well. Going Crazed means it pumps 2 melta shots into whatever's close by. The other two results gives you a respectable amount of attacks on the charge otherwise. They just generally do better if you can drop them behind vehicle lines or expensive Infantry (but MCs are a big nono). Failing that tho, dropping them in a large squad and reverse-tarpitting them is also good.

Granted, my success was probably due to the low points, since the other guy opted to combat squad his squads, so my helbrutes actually did use them as cover to avoid shooting phases (5 marines can be reliably killed in 2 turns). But hey, lemons to lemonade.

Akiasura wrote:

Agreed, Warp Talons are awful. Easily the worst unit in the dex. Pretty much all that's worth saying about them, but if we are talking DS options we might as well be complete.

Warp talons are at least fast and choppy against 3+ armor. Now possessed are a whole different story.

Oh boy here we go again.

@ Yoyoyo,
Sure.
I only had a problem with the quotes out of context and the rude start up to your contribution in this thread.
We can let bygones be bygones as long as it's kept polite.

@ MechaEmperor,
I always found the helbrute formation to be pretty good against most lists. I run a lot of transports in my lists, I actually consider the rhino with Havok launcher to be a huge advantage CSM has over SM, so the helbrute formation just adds to the armor saturation of the list.

I usually play big games and found they work well. The only thing that causes them to fall over is other MCs, where they don't do very well, being slower. GMCs especially are a problem, notably the wraith knight. I usually take Belakor and try to target the WK or other MC's on the table. My strategies match yours.

My games play as follows;

Turn 1, All bikes turbo boost and rhinos go flat out. Nothing in my army walks. FMC goes behind the rhinos for cover, as do the spawn (if the game is big enough...spawn are the first thing I cut tbh)


Turn 2, Bikes enter melee, rhinos drop plague marines who double tap. Any rhinos that died, their plague marines run to try to reach double tap range or assault.
Oblits drop in, I've also tried Havoks and can't decide what I like better. Havoks are in a transport with special weapons in this list. At this point, the enemy usually has too many units in his front line to deal with. Or I'm dealing with a super competitive list and I'm screwed.

Mcs are given priority by the PGs while oblits target tanks. Bikes go after infantry squads that can threaten me, since most of my army is T5 or sporting better saves than a 3+. I find bikes with lord back up not bad, though marines have much better bikes.

Helbrutes target vehicles and basically saturate the place in armor.

Turn 3;
FMC enters combat, everything is hopefully in melee range or I am way up on attrition and can carry the victory home. If all of the enemy MCs are dead I usually do okay. Deathstars usually will walk all over me though, can't really counter those.

I find this list does well against most dexes, but suffers against Eldar (WK x 2 is hard to handle), Marines (bike deathstar plus grav cents), Daemons (Screamer star). It does well against Tau and Necrons, who don't do well against armor saturation or CC by turn 2. I haven't faced the newest formation or a flying bakery however. Wraiths in high enough numbers in decurion are a problem if you don't target the spyders, but they are usually not horribly hard to kill with so much plasma running around.

I can't suggest the bikes enough. I don't run the same list, I personally don't use muties much, but in any saturation list being able to enter melee by turn 2 is huge if the rest of your army is fast. Bikes are probably the best thing in our dex, even though I am not sure what the best loadout is.

I can't decide to use Slaanesh, Nurgle, Or Khorne (GASP) on the bikes. Slaanesh is good for FnP but requires huge units and gets pricey. Nurgle is good for T6 but a lot of weapons seem to be higher strength lately. I'm leaning towards khorne since it's not expensive and allows the bikes to do a lot of damage in melee.

I tried the same thing with Bjorn and his angels once and actually got embarassingly shot off the table when three tornados looked at them in the wrong way (glanced at their bootys, quite literally), so it's not always gonna work. I also haven't tried it in bigger games (I presume 1000 points would go roughly the same, but no clue on 1500 or 2000) so this might be less viable at those ends. I need more helbrutes for that.

Koooaie,
I'd rate warp talons as the worst and possessed as second but it's minor. I'd be surprised to see either accomplish anything.

I think that warp talons have a place in current biker-heavy enviroment. Just a min squad around the midfield.

I'm forced to use Warp Talons because that's the only way my all-Raptors list would be battle forged. (the KDK formation). It makes me a sad panda.

Well Mecha... if Mutilators ever become a tax unit in a better formation, you'll be very well versed in how to use them effectively

Not really. I just use the Warp Talons like I would have a Raptor Lord. A needlessly expensive Raptor lord. (if you can't tell I'd rather have an actual Raptor lord)

 koooaei wrote:
BTW, i'm up for a game again. Want to test mutilators against other stuff than just IG.

For all y'all who have Vassal, let's get koooaei another game. I want to see more hot Mutilator CSM action

 koooaei wrote:
I think that warp talons have a place in current biker-heavy enviroment. Just a min squad around the midfield.

Hm, I don't think many bikers are that worried about warp talons. Warp talons need to deepstrike, and their chances of blinding most units are very slim unless its orks or necrons...maybe tau?
While warp talons hit like a truck, any 2+ save and they fall over. Recall that, for marine bikers, a guy with a 2+ save is usually in front tanking as many hits as possible. The warp talons will just bounce off of him. They can't do anything against centurions, and those are the 2 units I'm really afraid of.

Against eldar, they perform better having more targets. It's still easy for 2 min size units of scat bikers to decide they are a good target and wipe them, since they are about as tough as marines are against most guns without decent AP values while being incredibly more expensive. Not to mention their jetbikes are fast enough where the warp talons most likely won't reach CC.

Orks probably would worry a bit about warp talons, oddly enough. Their bikers are expensive, and the army as a whole lacks shooting power to remove them trivially.

Basically, I don't think any army that has MSU or split fire is worried about Talons. Way too overcosted and not tough enough for what they do. Even if they wipe one unit, it has to be a large unit for them to be a plus in the attrition battle.

Possessed aren't really any better. Their only use is if you roll lucky, or in one of the formations that makes them better. Maybe in a raider, but I think raiders are pretty bad against eldar and marines. Khorne Berzerkers are probably better in a raider, though they are also terrible.


Did anyone play Ashirya?

No, not yet. My studies are done for the day; I am available for championing either side.

What armies do you play? I'd like to see the mutilators go up against a more competitive list myself.

I main(ed) CSM, but I also have 30k Word Bearers and Orks.

Of course, if we want to be mean I can dig out my Eldar...

 Ashiraya wrote:
I main(ed) CSM, but I also have 30k Word Bearers and Orks.

Of course, if we want to be mean I can dig out my Eldar...

Hm, I think a playtest against CSM without mutilators would be very interesting.
Eldar would be a bit much. I don't think anyone is claiming that mutilators have a place against a competitive eldar list. If they are, eldar would probably be the better choice. We can determine a competitive level where mutilators still have a place.

I have a feeling we will find that place faster working from the ground up than bottom down though.

True.

Here was my old CSM 1850 list (not very optimised, it is mainly built from the models I have).



Naturally, if we're playing Vassal I wouldn't need to concern myself with what models I have, and I could devise a much stronger list.

I don't mind playing agains eldar too. Interested to see how well will they fare.

Waiting in vassal.

Oh dear. Count me out tonight. Turns out I won't be at home.

Hm, I have a class. We could build a semi-competitive Eldar list to see how the muties fare if you're up for it.

I haven't used vassal in...well forever. Does it work on ipads? The university makes us all use these worthless things sadly.

Doubt it. Might want to try though. It's written in Java so multiplatform but it might get unwieldy to controle.

I like the idea of a 'control experiment' CSM list with no mutilators...

On the other hand, anyone going to bring a cheesefest Come The Apocalypse list with all top of the line competitive units with a mutilator spam purge detachment thrown in?

Is it really fair to have the mutilators performance weighed down by the rest of their CSM buddies?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
BTW, i'm up for a game again. Want to test mutilators against other stuff than just IG.

For all y'all who have Vassal, let's get koooaei another game. I want to see more hot Mutilator CSM action

Me too. Although I'm bias'd. Lol. You know if you tell people when the game is, people can join and watch it.

The best way to play on Vassal is with Skype going and since i dont really WANT most people knowing my number, I am a little loathe to go there with some. The interface doesnt easily allow you to type and focus on the game simultaneously as a player. But VASSAL is really good for getting some games in like this so I'm torn on doing it with people on Dakkadakka.

But I will totally tune in for one of these games!

I don't even know the password to my old Skype account.

I've gotten old.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't even know the password to my old Skype account.

I've gotten old.

Create a new one. Its free.