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What a load of old bollocks this thread is.

If you like a paint job, you like a paint job. The method don't matter.

If you can afford a certain amount of work from a certain place, that's what you'll get and the market determines going rate, not any form of meritocracy and its bloody naive to think otherwise.

Here's a 90% airbrush job to finish with and you can now return to your regular scheduled mutterings.

 insaniak wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
Its a subject people are afraid to talk about

Not sure where you got that idea. It's a fairly common topic of discussion on this and most other forums I've been on.

It was a reference to the Tarantino video.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
Twice though, I have sent messages to Ebay sellers stating I believe their models are sub-par when they state they are "professionally painted" and linked them pictures to the same models going for the price they are asking for, yet, what I believe to be, better painted.
.

I sincerely hope that they told you where to go.

There is an awful lot more that goes into determining the price than just what someone else is charging for similar work, and if you genuinely do commission work I would expect you to be aware of that.

The end product is what matters and is the only thing that matters. If somebody was an amazing painter and painted "amazing model X" in five minutes and then there was somebody who was a terrible painter and painted an identical "amazing model Y' in a hundred times the hours with a hundred times the work, his lack of skill and poor time management does not make the model any different and the price should be the same.

If I was doing pinstripe work on a car and was charging $50,000 for it because I messed up a few times and spent hundreds of hours getting it right, would you buy it even though you could get the same work done by a better pinstriper for $200?

No, nobody would, because the end product is all that matters. Anyone who thinks there is more to determine the price of something than the end product is a fool. If everything is the same in the end, there is no reason for a price difference.

edited due to a quotation error

What the feth are you actually trying to say?

winterdyne wrote:
What the feth are you actually trying to say?

What is the context?

winterdyne wrote:
What a load of old bollocks this thread is.

If you like a paint job, you like a paint job. The method don't matter.

If you can afford a certain amount of work from a certain place, that's what you'll get and the market determines going rate, not any form of meritocracy and its bloody naive to think otherwise.

Here's a 90% airbrush job to finish with and you can now return to your regular scheduled mutterings.

Spoiler:

Quoted for both truth and awesomeness

I wish I could say it as well as you... and then back it up by being one of the best painters and commission painters in the world

 Ryan_A wrote:

It was a reference to the Tarantino video.

Ah. It would probably help keep confusion to a minimum if you limit quotes to things that are actually relevant to the discussion, then.

If everything is the same in the end, there is no reason for a price difference.

When you have more than one painter involved, everything is never going to be the same in the end, because everyone produces different work, due to differences in style and technique. And it's complicated further by the fact that the painter's reputation matters to a lot of customers as well. People will often pay more for a piece painted by a 'name' painter or studio than they will from an unknown.

And, really, where are you getting your baseline from? If you're charging what you think is reasonable for a piece, and a commission artist comes along who is willing to do it for half as much, are you automatically going to drop your price to match his?

Of course you're not. So why would you expect others to match what you think a piece is worth on nothing more than your say so?

Hell, back when I was doing commissions, I had absolutely no idea what anyone else was charging for similar work... I never bothered to look, because it simply wasn't relevant. I charged what I felt my time and my skill were worth, and if a potential customer agreed then we were both happy and a transaction occurred. End of story.

Well so far all I've got from this thread is that you don't like majority airbrush jobs. That's fine. You then go on to disparage work of various commission places, and later attempt to justify this by stating the price for that work is too high.

The truth is that if people want to pay for that level of work, that level of work will be provided. Sure it's not golden demon level stuff up close, but it a badly lit gaming room from four feet away, it's functional. And if people want to pay for it, they will.

What determines the price is not the product in isolation (and you're doomed from a business point of view if you think so) it's the supply of equivalent product (meaning standard of paintwork here), the demand for that product (size of the market), the cost of the product in terms of time (this varies massively- I simply cannot paint as cheaply as a Malaysian studio for my time for example) and finally the amount of capital in that market (determing how much people can pay).

If you feth up a pinlining job, that's your problem; you can and should factor the chance of your messing up into your initial quote- it forms part of the cost of your product. Awareness of ones own product is critical in running any business, but in a service business like commission painting or IT consultancy it's even more so.

Back to the core point- a fast airbrushed job is quick and more importantly predictable and consistent once a certain level of skill achieved. This makes it a suitable 'base' product for a professional (financially grounded) commission studio.

So I don't understand what you're trying to say other than stating you don't like something.

winterdyne wrote:
Well so far all I've got from this thread is that you don't like majority airbrush jobs.

Over a hundred posts by multiple people and this is all you get? Either you read none of it or you are trolling.

edit: Either way, you would be trolling I suppose.

Of any value, yup that's about all of it.

As for trolling? You don't know me very well yet, do you?

By all means if you have anything constructive or well argued to put forward do so, but so far this has been a bit of bandwagon hatemongering with absolutely no proven standpoint from either an artistic standpoint (post some work, get some feedback), or friom a logical, business point of view.

winterdyne wrote:
so far this has been a bit of bandwagon hatemongering with absolutely no proven standpoint from either an artistic standpoint (post some work, get some feedback), or friom a logical, business point of view.

Clearly false and clearly trolling. Have a good one buddy.

Winterdyne is probably both the most sober and most talented painter I've seen on these forums, or anywhere. Who you are Ryan is not known to me.

Can we lock this useless thread yet insaniak?

I like the tool when used as a shortcut for real painting, but I dislike the painting style that makes miniatures look like van art.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I like the tool when used as a shortcut for real painting, but I dislike the painting style that makes miniatures look like van art.

Since when is van art not real painting?

 Ryan_A wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
so far this has been a bit of bandwagon hatemongering with absolutely no proven standpoint from either an artistic standpoint (post some work, get some feedback), or friom a logical, business point of view.

Clearly false and clearly trolling. Have a good one buddy.

The words pot, kettle and black spring to mind; except in this instance the kettle (winterdyne) has put the pot (you) firmly back in his box with commendable restraint given how ludicrous your posting has become.

kb_lock wrote:
Winterdyne is probably both the most sober and most talented painter I've seen on these forums, or anywhere. Who you are Ryan is not known to me.

Can we lock this useless thread yet insaniak?

I'm not denying he is one of the best painters on dakkadakka. It doesn't give him the excuse to troll. Which his last posts were nothing but trolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sockwithaticket wrote:
ludicrous your posting has become.

Please clarify, I don't want to keep making this mistake.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I like the tool when used as a shortcut for real painting, but I dislike the painting style that makes miniatures look like van art.

I can't say anything on the tool itself as I've never used one myself, nor have people around me, but I completely agree with you. I don't think I have seen a single mini that was painted almost exclusively with airbrushing that doesn't make the miniatures look... well, just off.

kb_lock wrote:
Winterdyne is probably both the most sober and most talented painter I've seen on these forums, or anywhere. Who you are Ryan is not known to me.

Can we lock this useless thread yet insaniak?

Yes please. It seems to consist of random people having brain farts without really understanding what they're talking about.

I'm going to go and hand grind some beans for my coffee now. My hand ground coffee tastes much more ernest than beans ground in an automatic grinder or *shudder* ready ground coffee.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I like the tool when used as a shortcut for real painting, but I dislike the painting style that makes miniatures look like van art.

I can't say anything on the tool itself as I've never used one myself, nor have people around me, but I completely agree with you. I don't think I have seen a single mini that was painted almost exclusively with airbrushing that doesn't make the miniatures look... well, just off.

So in other words.... you haven't seen many minis that were painted almost exclusively with an airbrush.

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Scooty: i don't understand where this idea that NMM is "American style" comes from...
i've seen it called that by a few people, but the first time that NMM exploded onto the scene, around the year 2000, was from the Rackham studio out of France...
it was then picked up and perfected by the Italians and the Spanish long before it became a trend in the US...
i'm American, and i have always painted with TMM, but never felt that i was painting in a European style...
if anything i looked to the French for Zenithal and NMM perfection...

Well, first of all I didn't claim that American painters invented NMM.

There are European painters that are studs when it comes to NMM and American painters that produce amazing TMM models. A painter's geographical location is not the sole thing that decides what style a piece is painted in. Also, NMM and TMM aren't the only two differences between American and European style painting (in short, the American style is more stylized and the European style is more realistic).

However, in the upper echelons of the painting world, broadly speaking, American painters tend to favor one style while European painters favor a different one.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Scooty: i don't understand where this idea that NMM is "American style" comes from...
i've seen it called that by a few people, but the first time that NMM exploded onto the scene, around the year 2000, was from the Rackham studio out of France...
it was then picked up and perfected by the Italians and the Spanish long before it became a trend in the US...
i'm American, and i have always painted with TMM, but never felt that i was painting in a European style...
if anything i looked to the French for Zenithal and NMM perfection...

Well, first of all I didn't claim that American painters invented NMM.

There are European painters that are studs when it comes to NMM and American painters that produce amazing TMM models. A painter's geographical location is not the sole thing that decides what style a piece is painted in. Also, NMM and TMM aren't the only two differences between American and European style painting (in short, the American style is more stylized and the European style is more realistic).

However, in the upper echelons of the painting world, broadly speaking, American painters tend to favor one style while European painters favor a different one.

I'm not arguing (have no reason to wish to do so), but where do you encounter these differences on display that it's clearly based on geography? I'd be genuinely curious as I'd not realised, thinking the Internet the great equaliser.
That sounds sarcastic as feth, but I assure you it isn't.

winterdyne wrote:
Well so far all I've got from this thread is that you don't like majority airbrush jobs. That's fine. You then go on to disparage work of various commission places, and later attempt to justify this by stating the price for that work is too high.

The truth is that if people want to pay for that level of work, that level of work will be provided. Sure it's not golden demon level stuff up close, but it a badly lit gaming room from four feet away, it's functional. And if people want to pay for it, they will.

What determines the price is not the product in isolation (and you're doomed from a business point of view if you think so) it's the supply of equivalent product (meaning standard of paintwork here), the demand for that product (size of the market), the cost of the product in terms of time (this varies massively- I simply cannot paint as cheaply as a Malaysian studio for my time for example) and finally the amount of capital in that market (determing how much people can pay).

If you feth up a pinlining job, that's your problem; you can and should factor the chance of your messing up into your initial quote- it forms part of the cost of your product. Awareness of ones own product is critical in running any business, but in a service business like commission painting or IT consultancy it's even more so.

Back to the core point- a fast airbrushed job is quick and more importantly predictable and consistent once a certain level of skill achieved. This makes it a suitable 'base' product for a professional (financially grounded) commission studio.

So I don't understand what you're trying to say other than stating you don't like something.

this is the point to end all points. since most people here are poo painters they have never had anyone ask them to paint something or offer to be hired. I get asked all the time and I never do it. the reason is once i said sure, followed by returning the money a day later when it hit me how long it actually takes to get a certain standard without an airbrush

lets talk salary/money

- you paint a squad for commission.
- avg work day is 8 hours and lets say bare minimum 10 an hour
- the client wants an army that will score well at tournys (as many do)


how long does it take you to paint 10 models? an hour each? ok so do you think someones paying 80 bucks for 10 marines to be painted? also it doesnt take an hour each to paint a good model. id be lucky to do one in an hour. is someone paying 100 bucks PLUS 30 for the marines to be painted? he needs like 40 more marines...... and tanks, and special units. what is the price at over a grand? who here is going to pay a grand for a not that well painted army? it will score well kinda, it wont look that great up close?

- heres the most important part

- most people are TERRIBLE painters. i mean AWFUL. that being said a really poorly airbrushed model like that bloodthirster has inherent shading that airbrushes provide and look good from a distance will REALLY appeal to most people and take VERY little time to accomplish. it completely DESTROYS anything most people can even do and what ive learned is that most people who cannot paint well, also cannot really take notice to most of the detail a high standard paint job entails. its just a thing ive noticed.

you can choose to not believe me but go to 5 hobby shops that play tabletop. take note of the plastic awfulness or just downright globbed on garbage paint jobs then think.... those airbrushed models are lookin pretty good right about now.

i still maintain airbrushing needs a sep category at painting competitions

Your points would be taken more seriously if you didn't gak on the people you're trying to convince.

Here's the thing:
If you want us to agree with you, blanket calling everyone else's work a turd is not going to help, especially doing it as abrasively as this.

If you don't want us to agree with you, and are just posting to read your own words, that is masturbation, and we don't need to see it here.

I'm actually on board with many of your points, but your eloquent approach is sullying it significantly.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Your points would be taken more seriously if you didn't gak on the people you're trying to convince.

Here's the thing:
If you want us to agree with you, blanket calling everyone else's work a turd is not going to help, especially doing it as abrasively as this.

If you don't want us to agree with you, and are just posting to read your own words, that is masturbation, and we don't need to see it here.

I'm actually on board with many of your points, but your eloquent approach is sullying it significantly.

im not running for office. i can point out a fact most dont want to admit

"most people are crappy painters" "this stuff looks so good to them"

who am i insulting anyway? bad painters who want to comment about topics involving painting. what a joke. that be like insulting illiterate people in text and being worried

also where do you get this notion i want to read my own words lol. are you upset i made comments that might disqualify you from commenting about the matter? its the internet man you are one google search away from dudes having heads cut off on vid. thicker skin please

also all the logic in the world falls on deaf ears over the internet and even in real life. if anything im wasting my time. accuse me of that

I would posit that one does not need to be a chef to understand that raw sewage is unsafe to eat.

eosgreen wrote:
- most people are TERRIBLE painters. i mean AWFUL. that being said a really poorly airbrushed model like that bloodthirster has inherent shading that airbrushes provide and look good from a distance will REALLY appeal to most people and take VERY little time to accomplish. it completely DESTROYS anything most people can even do and what ive learned is that most people who cannot paint well, also cannot really take notice to most of the detail a high standard paint job entails. its just a thing ive noticed.

I'm not sure if this is support for airbrushes or condemnation of them.

If you can paint a model quickly that appeals to people.... err... that's the whole idea of a business?

You don't get brownie points for doing things the hard way

Also I think you exaggerate what "very" little time things take to accomplish. Faster? Yes. Though still long enough that you are going to end up charging 2-4 times the cost of the model to earn minimum wage.

If the pictures in your gallery are yours then you are obviously a decent painter, but have you actually used an airbrush? If so did you watch the clock? It can feel fast because the paint gets laid down quickly, but once you include the extra effort involved in setting it up, mixing your paints to the right consistency, adding masks to the model, spending a few minutes cleaning it out between colour changes plus the time at the end. It's quicker for large models, no doubt, but it's not some magical "instant complete" button, for small models that are going to require a lot of masking I'd hazard a guess and say it's not much quicker than brush painting for high standard stuff.

Can everyone hold on replying to this thread for 20 minutes while I go buy some popcorn please?

To stay vaguely on-topic: I don't necessarily disagree with many of the points made in the original and follow-up posts, but I very strongly agree with Buttery that "but your eloquent approach is sullying it significantly."

There's a couple of the people replying to you that seem to have wilfully mis-understood or isolated parts of your posts as well. There's still a smidgeon of potential in this thread, but I'm not holding my breath.

Winterdyne - that mini you posted as a '90% airbrush' example - I really like it, but there are tons of details I have trouble seeing being done with an airbrush - are we taking 90% of the painted surface, or 90% of the time spent? Not getting at you - I've just never taken on a project of that type and size so have no clue about it!

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I'm not arguing (have no reason to wish to do so), but where do you encounter these differences on display that it's clearly based on geography? I'd be genuinely curious as I'd not realised, thinking the Internet the great equaliser.
That sounds sarcastic as feth, but I assure you it isn't.

Just follow some of the high profile miniature painters out there and you'll see it. Again, this isn't some hard and fast rule that all painters from certain areas have to paint this one way, but there is a definite trend when it comes to certain styles.

mockingbirduk wrote:
There's a couple of the people replying to you that seem to have wilfully mis-understood or isolated parts of your posts as well. There's still a smidgeon of potential in this thread, but I'm not holding my breath.

I don't think I've wilfully misunderstood but of course I've wilfully isolated parts, when I delete half the post to only quote 1 paragraph it's not an accident I quoted the part I wanted to discuss further. I may have slightly misinterpreted eos's intent due to the tone used in the post, but not enough so to edit my previous reply.

I don't disagree eosgreen's overall post other than I don't think in this day and age we need separate categories in painting competitions for airbrushed or not airbrushed. It's a tool you can choose to use or not choose to use. It's not always the appropriate tool and it doesn't magically make you a better artist, so I don't think it needs a separate category.

The circlejerk in this thread...

I just want to say that although airbrushed miniatures can look good, what's up with spraying blue on all lamps you see?

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I'm not arguing (have no reason to wish to do so), but where do you encounter these differences on display that it's clearly based on geography? I'd be genuinely curious as I'd not realised, thinking the Internet the great equaliser.
That sounds sarcastic as feth, but I assure you it isn't.

Just follow some of the high profile miniature painters out there and you'll see it. Again, this isn't some hard and fast rule that all painters from certain areas have to paint this one way, but there is a definite trend when it comes to certain styles.

It's possibly because I live in Europe, but I think of high profile NMM and I immediately think of Kabuki, Rackham, Golem Studios, etc. and they're quite close to home. I don't disagree with you because I don't have reason to, but I wonder if like I say, it's down to geography and what we are exposed to?