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The catch with railguns is that you only get one per tank. The only other tank like that is the Eldar Fire Prism, really. Even the Leman Russ Vanquisher has a hull-mounted lascannon and can get sponson weapons. A Hammerhead has a secondary weapon that is better than a heavy bolter (but not better than three of them), but doesn't have a secondary anti-tank weapon.

As for heavy rail rifles, they compare decently to lascannons, except that the closest Imperial unit is the Devastator Centurion. First off, hardly anyone runs them with lascannons in the first place, because grav-cannons are just better (in much the same way that HYMPs are just better than HRRs) - but even if you did, they still have a second anti-tank weapon (if you bought it, but with a lascannon, why wouldn't you?), T5, ATSKNF, SnP, Chapter Tactics and the Omniscope.

The idea isn't that they should be "instantly kill anything guns", but rather that the HRR should be worth using (usually it isn't) and the Railgun should be good enough that you want to take Hammerheads, and not just more Spamsides.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
This whole conversation is crazy. What are you comparing railguns to, las cannons, melta guns, distortion weapons. Railguns are exactly where they should be in that they either have better stats or better range then all the mention weapons. If you want SD or multiple wounds and autopens make the range 24"

The problem is that all of those things are ALSO terrible singly.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
This whole conversation is crazy. What are you comparing railguns to, las cannons, melta guns, distortion weapons. Railguns are exactly where they should be in that they either have better stats or better range then all the mention weapons. If you want SD or multiple wounds and autopens make the range 24"

It's not crazy at all. Single shot anti-tank weapons are nearly useless in 7th. D weapons ignore armor and put multiple wounds on MCs, and that's why they are good even with a single shot. Lascannons, melta, etc, are all also very poor in 7th.

Well, they're decent when you can take them in numbers, but not singly. And that's part of why railguns are pretty poor - you get one per model, tops. HRRs are cheaper, but also less useful than lascannons. S8 vs S9 is significant when trying to peel off hull points, while AP1 vs AP2 doesn't matter all that much. The lucky instakill can happen, but it's just that - lucky.

The rub is figuring out how to make one-shot AT weapons useful without creating either the 5E parking-lot problem (where tanks won't die until you get that one lucky shot) or the 6E problem but worse (where tanks kinda just evaporate, so don't bother). 7E is closer than 6E was, but not by a lot.

Check out my rule change for vehicle damage

It could be possible the issue is less to do with the HRR and more to do with "it is just too easy to glance out vehicles"

Str 8 AP 1 is still a crap profile because Str 8 doesn't generate that many penetrating hits to take advantage of the AP 1. The whole vehicle system needs overhauled.

Martel732 wrote:
Str 8 AP 1 is still a crap profile because Str 8 doesn't generate that many penetrating hits to take advantage of the AP 1. The whole vehicle system needs overhauled.

Thats the arguement i had the moment i saw they went to S8. Theyre weaker than a damn lascannon and way way more expensive (paying about twice the price for 2+ armor essentially, since -1str on the shot and T4 usually renders the 2wounds useless). S8 wont make use of the AP1 unless it has Armourbane or Melta or at LEAST Ordnance. Rail Rifles are the same boat but theyre bunched up with S5 buddies, so shooting vehicles the S5 cant hurt is pointless anyway - theyre more useful for guaranteeing a kill or two every time that unit shoots against infantry

The regular rail rifle is OK in my book because killing vehicles isn't actually its role IMHO - it's a better plasma gun, not a worse heat lance. Vehicles that S5 can't hurt are vehicles S6 can't pen, so AP1 would be pointless there anyway - think of it as AP2 and you'll be more on the right track, except that if you do manage to whang a Venom with it, you'll see much more impressive fireworks. I sometimes use them for cracking transports when I can get side/rear shots (and then curse and swear about Eldar and Necrons, but them's the breaks), with the side bonus of having enough shots to threaten marines, immortals or other such armored infantry afterward. It's not atrocious against MCs either. My only beef is that it's still a bit too expensive for only coming on Pathfinders - if Fire Warriors could take them, they'd be more interesting.

The HRR would be OK if it had either more shots (making it something like a super plasma gun) or could penetrate more reliably (making it a more anti-tank-optimized lascannon).

For any single shot weapon to be effective, the whole toughness system needs to be reworked.

Grav guns are infintely better than lascannons because they have more shots and take out 2+ armor just as easily, or MORE easily if that model has a high T.

HYMPs are infinitely better than HRRs because they have more shots and are more likely to cause wounds/glances.

I think the problem is that AP1 really means nothing. A weapon with AP1 should cause two wounds instead of one. I mean, if it can penetrate tank armor with ease, it's definitely going to feth up whatever it hits.

I still think instant death is appropriate for many heavy weapons. If you shoot a T-Rex with an Abrams battle tank, it's dead.

Fair enough there, but remember that also means that other multi-wound models like Captains and such get insta-killed by them.

Giving, say, anything above S8 instant death will radically change the meta. Multi-wound models will basically go away, replaced by hordes, because the horde will survive being hit with a lascannon (losing one model), while the expensive elite infantry or MC will not. I suppose if multi-wound characters were made cheaper, that might work.

I guarantee you'd never see another nidzilla army, though.

jade_angel wrote:
Fair enough there, but remember that also means that other multi-wound models like Captains and such get insta-killed by them.

Giving, say, anything above S8 instant death will radically change the meta. Multi-wound models will basically go away, replaced by hordes, because the horde will survive being hit with a lascannon (losing one model), while the expensive elite infantry or MC will not. I suppose if multi-wound characters were made cheaper, that might work.

I guarantee you'd never see another nidzilla army, though.

Kinda like a futuristic combat would actually be. Survivability would be minimal; there would be no heroes per se.

Yeah.. but everyone likes having heroes!

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Yeah.. but everyone likes having heroes!

Feth that. My heroes always get stepped on by WK anyway. WK and Stormsurge.... the real heroes of 40K. GMCs have ruined any pretense of heroics in this game.

So set rules: No gargantuan creatures. No 2+ saves unless you're space marines or a variant and then only Captains in Artificer/Terminator/Runic armor or Techmarines. No bike or Jetbike troops. No MCs with guns over S5.

Or heck, even something like "any second-tier armies get a 40% points bonus".

Broadsides having 2+ armor is fine. WK would be fine if they were 500 pts. I don't mind any given powerful model as long as it is appropriately costed.

The 40% bonus for crap codices is the least intrusive change, because that is compensating for overcostedness.

I like the idea of the line shot, if target doesn't save or goes through. But also the heavy 2 would already be a blessing. I hear if you gave tau more d weapons people will hate us even more:(

I don't want D for railguns. Just being more reliable would be fine.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I don't want D for railguns. Just being more reliable would be fine.

But that's what strD is. More reliable than s10 because it pens on a 2+.

I guess, but I'd rather not, just because my view is the less D the better (also my view on my love life )

How about this:

Rail weapons have Fleshbane and Armorbane, making all of them wound on a 2+ and reliably pen any armor but only the Rail Gun can ID T5 models.
HRR deals D3 wounds on a To Wound of 6
Rail Gun deals D3 wounds on a To Wound of 4+
(or glances)

RR really only gets a buff because its a rail weapon. Tbh though, all it would do is make it reliably wound instead of wound a T5 target (i.e. bikes) on 2s rather than 3s. Shooting at anything higher than T7 with them wastes the pulse carbine shots anyway. Theres also the uber squishyness problem lol.