Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

die toten hosen wrote:

 Konrax wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
no greater well of butthurt then a chaos space marine thread.

GW will make you a new codex, just wait, and you will all still hate it because thats what CSM players do.

Demonkin codex? "i hate khorne they're soo stupid wheres my tzeench or malalalalala kin codex?"

be patient. i don't see sisters players on here every week drowing a tread in their tears.

All two of them?
No, but really, Chaos players have a right to complain. They have the worst codex competitively and also fluffy wise.

Fluff wise? how? you have the entire heresy as your history, aswell as a pretty well written codex story wise. you know who has gak fluff? tau, shittiest.
is you codex gak? sure it's hardly toptier but there are numerous ways to supplement it and increase your army power.
want better vehicles? IA14
want a walker that's way better then a Imperial Knight? Kytan, FW.
ally demons for pysker domination.
want to have a fluffy army? khorne demonkin. seems to do well in every event i've seen it played in. looks legit fun to play too.
want to ally guard for traitors? IA14.

and the "i shouldnt have to buy FW" argument is null. "other" ways of getting these rules and or models exsist.
or you could just quit the game and take the crying down a bit

So to make the csm codex not garbage, you must ally in everything else available to prop up the 2 cultist min units and 60pt Hq from the csm codex you have left?

Sure I will just go ahead and stop playing csm all together since that is the next logical step to take.

The ally matrix exsists for a reason.

So does a wood chipper... we arent assuming you'll willing jump in though.

I never got the chance to experience the golden age of 3.5ed csm...

I got the 4th ed book. So it was the time of the double Lash of Submission Daemon Prince and 3 defilers and 2 squads of troops. That was the only way to win.

6th ed, it was the era of 3-6 heldrakes. When anti air was its weakest. In addition were 2 nearly useless supplements, Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. These books should have given powerful army wode buffs but it did not.

As 6th ed ended and 7th ed came. Khorne Daemonkin tried to bridge the gap and fill the void. Your army was good at 2 things...Close combat and they were good at dying...They actually were better at dying. This army resembled Sisters of battle death spiral design. The more they killed you, the more you get to be an annoying troll. Blood tithes were similar to miracles.

But after all this time i think i get it. I am going to share some deep feelings and thoughts that might get me trolled.

1. CSM are supposed to lose. They are the Saturday cartoon villains that the hero cartoons vanquish until next weekend.

2. They are a product of the 90s. A time when heavy metal defined the culture. Guitar rifts were in every cartoon openings and movies, and tv shows. But something happened. People stop likeing heavy metal.

CSM had to grow up and get a new job because that gig didnt sell seats anymore. Somewhere along the way CSM lost its identity by working odd jobs even stooping low to do dirty jobs just to survive. CSM didnt understand its place and role in society and an identy crisis ensued. That is why they had, Black legion, Crimson Slaughter, Khorne Daemonkin, Imperial Armor 13, Be'Lakor, The helbrute dataslates, etc...CSM needs to split up and explore new things to develope a d find its way back to what mades them whole.

3. At the core of CSM, they are just a bunch of child minds in the bodies of grown men who have daddy issues. They just cant admit they are wrong. They didnt have a father to tell them, they are loved or proud. So they lash out at everyone like a rebelious teen or emo kid. They seekout other misfits and outcasts like them and try to form their own clique of goth, emo, punk, scene...

4. CSM army needs to be redifined. What role in 40k is missing? Can CSM fit that niche? Can they distinguish themselves? What makes them worth playing? Why even collect them?

5. Chaso Marines need to be elites. No more, unlocking as troops for the cult marines either. CSM army needs to functions more like Alpha legion where there are few marines but many other agents of chaos cultists. Imperial Armor 13 did a great job of this with renegades and heretics.

6. The Chaos marines that remain need to be scarier than normal marines. Since Marines can only ever be elites and never troops, the marines need super powers. All chaos marines should have option be able warp walk (teleport) thru impassable terrain, move thru cover, even enemies. Even the bikers. All chaos marines should have options to be conduits of the warp so to act as beacons for removing scatter of deepstriking units. Or allow options for all Chaos marines to deepstrike without scatter. Or only option to roll 1 dice instead of 2. All chaos marines should be fearless because they are made of nightmare. All Chaos Marines should have option to infiltrate or scout. All shooting from Chaos Marines should have option to auto wound and glance on a roll of 6s. All Chaos Marines should have a built in 6++ invul from the protection of the warp. Chaos Marines really should have built in feel no pain on a 6+++ from all the torture of the warp. these buffs should cost little to nothing. Because these Chaos Marines are never troops, they should cost only 13ppm compared to Necron warriors who get re animation protocol and gauss. This all only applies, Chaos Marines, Chosen, Raptors, Havocs. None of the cult marines or warp talons or terminators or obliterators.

7. Throw out ALL random charts and tables. Its not fun and it waste time rolling and keeping track of. This should be number 1.

8. rant to be continued. ..

 Filch wrote:
I never got the chance to experience the golden age of 3.5ed csm...

I got the 4th ed book. So it was the time of the double Lash of Submission Daemon Prince and 3 defilers and 2 squads of troops. That was the only way to win.

6th ed, it was the era of 3-6 heldrakes. When anti air was its weakest. In addition were 2 nearly useless supplements, Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter. These books should have given powerful army wode buffs but it did not.

As 6th ed ended and 7th ed came. Khorne Daemonkin tried to bridge the gap and fill the void. Your army was good at 2 things...Close combat and they were good at dying...They actually were better at dying. This army resembled Sisters of battle death spiral design. The more they killed you, the more you get to be an annoying troll. Blood tithes were similar to miracles.

But after all this time i think i get it. I am going to share some deep feelings and thoughts that might get me trolled.

1. CSM are supposed to lose. They are the Saturday cartoon villains that the hero cartoons vanquish until next weekend.

2. They are a product of the 90s. A time when heavy metal defined the culture. Guitar rifts were in every cartoon openings and movies, and tv shows. But something happened. People stop likeing heavy metal.

CSM had to grow up and get a new job because that gig didnt sell seats anymore. Somewhere along the way CSM lost its identity by working odd jobs even stooping low to do dirty jobs just to survive. CSM didnt understand its place and role in society and an identy crisis ensued. That is why they had, Black legion, Crimson Slaughter, Khorne Daemonkin, Imperial Armor 13, Be'Lakor, The helbrute dataslates, etc...CSM needs to split up and explore new things to develope a d find its way back to what mades them whole.

3. At the core of CSM, they are just a bunch of child minds in the bodies of grown men who have daddy issues. They just cant admit they are wrong. They didnt have a father to tell them, they are loved or proud. So they lash out at everyone like a rebelious teen or emo kid. They seekout other misfits and outcasts like them and try to form their own clique of goth, emo, punk, scene...

4. CSM army needs to be redifined. What role in 40k is missing? Can CSM fit that niche? Can they distinguish themselves? What makes them worth playing? Why even collect them?

5. Chaso Marines need to be elites. No more, unlocking as troops for the cult marines either. CSM army needs to functions more like Alpha legion where there are few marines but many other agents of chaos cultists. Imperial Armor 13 did a great job of this with renegades and heretics.

6. The Chaos marines that remain need to be scarier than normal marines. Since Marines can only ever be elites and never troops, the marines need super powers. All chaos marines should have option be able warp walk (teleport) thru impassable terrain, move thru cover, even enemies. Even the bikers. All chaos marines should have options to be conduits of the warp so to act as beacons for removing scatter of deepstriking units. Or allow options for all Chaos marines to deepstrike without scatter. Or only option to roll 1 dice instead of 2. All chaos marines should be fearless because they are made of nightmare. All Chaos Marines should have option to infiltrate or scout. All shooting from Chaos Marines should have option to auto wound and glance on a roll of 6s. All Chaos Marines should have a built in 6++ invul from the protection of the warp. Chaos Marines really should have built in feel no pain on a 6+++ from all the torture of the warp. these buffs should cost little to nothing. Because these Chaos Marines are never troops, they should cost only 13ppm compared to Necron warriors who get re animation protocol and gauss. This all only applies, Chaos Marines, Chosen, Raptors, Havocs. None of the cult marines or warp talons or terminators or obliterators.

7. Throw out ALL random charts and tables. Its not fun and it waste time rolling and keeping track of. This should be number 1.

8. rant to be continued. ..

+1, Well said. They only drawback to a new codex is the 2-4 new SUPER units you will need to purchase to have a chance. All the old stuff will still suck. Rememeber GW is a MODEL company, they need to sell models. My dusty CSM sitting the army bag will not GW any $$$ if all my units are good.

Didn't you guys get a ton of new units under the last codex and all of them sucked exept for the helldrake after the 360 LoS errata.

As others have said, I think it is down to them needing a complete overhaul of their rules which is a massive undertaking in terms of time and investment, especially since they are trying to also bring up AoS.

I predict that we will see a CSM release later on this year, maybe in the latter part of 2016/early 2017. As to how many of the kits and characters will be updated is anyone's guess. Abbadon's model definitely needs an update, but then again, GW left Dante, Mephiston and Corbulo alone for the Blood Angels and Ragnar Blackmane alone for Space Wolves - all of these are aging models that don't like right next to their modern day brothers.

 Slaphead wrote:
As others have said, I think it is down to them needing a complete overhaul of their rules which is a massive undertaking in terms of time and investment, especially since they are trying to also bring up AoS.

I predict that we will see a CSM release later on this year, maybe in the latter part of 2016/early 2017. As to how many of the kits and characters will be updated is anyone's guess. Abbadon's model definitely needs an update, but then again, GW left Dante, Mephiston and Corbulo alone for the Blood Angels and Ragnar Blackmane alone for Space Wolves - all of these are aging models that don't like right next to their modern day brothers.

I can tell you're not a Chaos player...

Abbadon can get in line for a new model right after we get replacement/updated kits for;
Chaos Marines
Terminators
Havocs
Chosen
Berserkers
Thousand Sons
Noise Marines
Plaguemarines
Oblits/Mutilator combo-kit
Cultists
Chaos Rhino variant
Chaos Land Raider variant
Re-tooled Deflier that doesn't look like a gakky Happy Meal toy

Once we get those minor needs addressed, then our SC's can get some new sculpts.

Slaphead's not a Chaos player, but he plays against them exclusively as far as I know...

Crispy78 wrote:
Slaphead's not a Chaos player, but he plays against them exclusively as far as I know...

Well, I did mention that I could easily tell he wasn't a CSM player!

But still, even if the only time you ever see Chaos Marines is as a routine opponent, it should still be glaringly obvious just how huge of a gakfest our model line is.
really, without the Loyalist line to cannibalise for so many of our needs, we'd be as bad as pre-5th ed Dark Eldar were in.

I am in the process of converting mh chaos marines back into loyalists...

Experiment 626 wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Slaphead's not a Chaos player, but he plays against them exclusively as far as I know...

Well, I did mention that I could easily tell he wasn't a CSM player!

But still, even if the only time you ever see Chaos Marines is as a routine opponent, it should still be glaringly obvious just how huge of a gakfest our model line is.
really, without the Loyalist line to cannibalise for so many of our needs, we'd be as bad as pre-5th ed Dark Eldar were in.

To be fair, they'd look a bit better if I could get round to painting the bloody things...

For what it's worth I think there are a number of issues:

- GW probably do more research than we give them credit for (i.e. some but not a huge amount!). They know there is a big divide among CSM players as to what they want in their army. Some scream for legion rules, others want extensive access to cultists, some want renegades, etc. To satisfy all these will take a significant investment of time and energy.

- To maintain consistency they will have to remodel large swathes of the range. At the very least they will need to rework the basic CSM box. In order to ensure you can buy all the units in the dex, which is now policy, they will need to make new chosen and havoc boxes.

- CSM was the first 6th ed dex. It had more good ideas than they are given credit for imho. BUT these ideas were not well-implemented. Chaos gifts could have been a great boon but ended up being pretty poor.

- The army is a key one in the canon, it is one of the major factions and is widely believed to be currently poor. It needs a major rethink and reworking. A quick release a couple of new kits and minor rework on the dex a la Tau is not feasible and they know this.

- Right now GW have a policy (confirmed to me personally by Jes Goodwin) that since they allowed IoM armies to ally freely with one another then they would break down the other armies into more dexes to allow them some flexibility. This doesn't really work for Tau and nids, say, but CSM is absolutely ideal. You could have Codex CSM: Traitor Legions, Codex CSM: cults, Codex CSM: renegades, etc, etc. This again wil take time.

- I think KDK was an attempt to do this, I fully expected the other three gods to follow suit with their own daemonkin dexes. Why this did not happen I'm not sure. I think they trialled folding CSM and DC together with this release.

My opinion, my hunch, is that they know this army is the one that really needs a massive refit and simply throwing out a quick dex won't wash. I think they have been working on this for a long time, but they won't release until they have the whole thing ready. I am pretty confident that new CSM, havoc and chosen figures are done, we know they produce the figures months or years in advance. I think they are toying and tinkering with new rules and exactly how to approach this. I expect an Ad Mech style release with many kits and several dexes which can be slotted together. I would bet on the following, plus some surprises:
- New 'tac' box. 10 but with many more options and probably 50% more price wise.
- Some kind of cult marine plastics, maybe head swap options etc in a pricey chosen/cult troop box? Would be consistent with sternguard, put 5 figs in a box with oodles of options.
- Chosen box, similar to sternguard (see above)
- Havocs with all options in plastic.
- Legion dex
- Renegades and cultists dex
- Army rebadged into chaos folding in daemons to give three dexes to tinker about with, similar to Eldar with DE, Craftworlds and Harlies.

Just my pointless noodling!

Isengard wrote:
I think KDK was an attempt to do this, I fully expected the other three gods to follow suit with their own daemonkin dexes. Why this did not happen I'm not sure. I think they trialled folding CSM and DC together with this release.

I think it is happening. For whatever reason, GW simply won't respond quickly. It's like their design cycle takes upwards of a year.

I just want a codex that every unit has a table you need to roll on before it does anything.

And another table that gives random buffs you roll on when it kills stuff, and finally another table that you roll on to see which other tble you roll on next.

Lastly each table should have a chance to hurt you or kill you since it is only logical that after navigating all these tables you should must have a chance to do it all for nothing.

Then and only then will Chaos truly be free.

 Konrax wrote:
I just want a codex that every unit has a table you need to roll on before it does anything.

And another table that gives random buffs you roll on when it kills stuff, and finally another table that you roll on to see which other tble you roll on next.

Lastly each table should have a chance to hurt you or kill you since it is only logical that after navigating all these tables you should must have a chance to do it all for nothing.

Then and only then will Chaos truly be free.

This is awesome. Chaos should definitely have a random chance of your guys just dying every turn on a roll of a D6. But they can't just die on a 1 - that would be too easy and Chaos is anything but! No, you need to roll on a D66 table to see just what kind of hits your guys will be taking! Like maybe they're poisoned or maybe they're fleshbane or maybe they're Str D or who knows? IT'S CHAOS! And the wounds all use random wound allocation - but get this - you have to randomly allocate each to a model randomly chosen from your entire army! Because that's fun for everyone involved. Chaos is fickle!

They also need rules to reflect infighting and backstabbing. CSM models should treat everyone as Come The Apocalypse, including members of their own squad. Cuz let's face it - it's always The Apocalypse for CSM! Also there should be a rule called 'Look Out, Me!' that would force you to allocate wounds to the nearest Character within 6" on a 4+ (2+ if that Character is an Independent Character). Watch your back!

Do you guys work for GW??

Makumba wrote:
Didn't you guys get a ton of new units under the last codex and all of them sucked exept for the helldrake after the 360 LoS errata.

Maulerfiends/Forgefiends, decent, can be usefull, but not stellar, even if it can be a real suprise sometimes.

Warptalons, CCW unit, who's overcosted and who's special ability doesn't work.

Heldrake, was OVER functional, is now under performing.

Mutilators,...lol..., no seriously...

Warpsmith, Sub par Lord, Techy with nothing interesting.

Dark Apostle,...okay-ish, if you don't want an HQ that doesn't do anything interesting.

Cultists, cheap bastards good at what they are good at , dying.

6 new units, in wich 2 are just a variant of existing units, and bad ones and 2 nearly useless characters, is not what i call a "Ton" of new stuff.

WArptalons could have been a Posseseds variant, and WArpsmith/Dark Apostle is the bare minimum for those who wanted to field a "IW"-esque or "WB"-esque army, Cultists are not really a new thing, since they was in the CHapter Approved from 2001/2 and in 3.5codex, but at least they could take special weapons like plasma and meltas and could infiltrate.

All those new units. Three of them were removed from the 3.5 into 4 conversion. Alpha legion could get cultists. Word Bearers had dark apostles (and they were pretty awesome) and iron warriors could get war smiths. And Basilisks.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and we had cult terminators. And the book was so confusing it would give you migraines. Just like chaos wanted!

It's also worth noting that;
- Neither the Dark Apostle nor the Warpsmith can take any alternate forms of movement or Termie armour, unlike their Loyalist counterparts... This is not so much of a blow for the Warpsmith, (though a bike would nice), but it makes the Dark Apostle a useless IC.
Literally, the only units he can properly support are Cultists, Chaos Marines/Chosen and Berserkers. God forbid Chaos being able to add his Zealot rule to units like Bikes or Termies or Raptors like Loyalist scum can!

- All the new daemonic stuff - the engines + Talons/Mutilators, have absolutely 0 synergies within their own army. Put them in a Daemons of Chaos army however, and they become viable to solid units!

So really, the only things we really gained per say, was a decent flyer that became OP due to an FAQ ruling, (that has since been fixed, but don't let that Loyalist bias get in the way of anything!), and a cheap meat shield unit with hugely limited options in the form of Cultists. (who still missed out on interesting rules like Infiltrate which they at one time had!)

As someone who bought Slaves to Darkness when it was new and Lost and the Damned on the day it came out, Chaos and its marines have always been close to my heart. I honestly feel it should be the most interesting and exciting faction, and that it deserves more. In fact I think that is true of Chaos generally.

Back in 1989 Chaos was, well, chaotic. It was crazy and anarchic. It was amoral, but not necessarily evil. It was a bit horror, a bit scary, but rarely all about the killing. There was more at stake than getting killed. There were immortal souls at risk, and the gods had their games to play.

Marines were always more militaristic than some other elements of Chaos, but they were marines, after all. Yes, it all went a bit "metal" in the 90s, with Noise Marines and the like, but before that, it was interesting.

What does the faction need now? It is easier to list what it should not be (an Industrial-military complex with spiky bits and skulls), but that almost doesn't matter. It needs fluff that honours the earliest fluff from Realm of Chaos, but offers something more at the same time. It needs a sense of the fact that these people are slaves, that they are lost and some despair and hopelessness at the fact they are damned. Some mania and delirium might not go amiss in some factions. I need to go away and think about it more, I'll be back!

What amuses me the most about these threads is that, despite ignoring the OP and simply fielding everyone's own grievances, they are representative of exactly why Chaos has yet to really win in 40k. We are united in our hatred but that hatred quickly turns inward.

It is almost ironic how appropriate the internal strife within the Chaos community is. Like our very own Eye of Terror. It gives my tentacles goosebumps just thinking about it.

In regards to the OP:

The rebranding of Chaos as a GW specific faction is definitely a genuine problem. What do you call a faction that is both Adeptus Astartes but not? What do you call a unit that is Space Marine but not Space Marine? More importantly, what do you call a unit which has held the same name for so long that it has become synonymous with some pop-culture references that defy trademarking?

The various units within the book are probably not going to get much renaming, but the book itself will need to be called something else and fit into the mythos. Most importantly of all Chaos Space Marines are the ultimate driving force beyond the impending apocalypse.

Hear me out. Tyranids are "coming." Necrons are "awakening." Tau are "expanding." Orks are "uniting." What's Chaos doing? Chaos has united, expanded, and awakened. The daemon-primarchs are not just debating interfering, they have all been brought out (except Magnus, screw that guy). Abaddon's thirteenth Black Crusade is HAPPENING.

The issue is that in creating the CSM Codex, GW has to make a VERY important decision. Do they do what they did in 7th edition of Fantasy and 40k thus far, have the clock a minute before midnight? Or do they finally let the bell tole midnight and let hell loose?

The reason this is important is because if the CSM codex is released it will need to either be appropriately prepared for the coming massive campaign in order to stay relevant, or it will need to be sufficiently powerful and new without spoiling the coming campaign.

Long story short, GW needs to choose what to do with the coming Apocalypse that Abaddon is going to bring to the Imperium. Will it be like the End Times? At that point, forget a new Codex, just make a bunch of new releases like Kau'yon. Will it be like The Storm of Chaos and Thirteenth Black Crusade events, where the supplements are campaign specific and the take-aways become army-wide? At that point, a codex remake makes sense.

The issue with the branding of Chaos is that it is so pivotal to GW's coming plans that they have to very carefully decide on a timeframe for the future of 40k. A future that Chaos (as has been mirrored in AoS) will have a massive part to play in.

GW doesn't need "help" finding a place for CSM as a niche or a theme in 40k. They have that niche and theme in spades. Fluff wise Chaos is at its peak. Abaddon is no longer armless and a failure, read the Black Legion supplement's fluff. Huron Blackheart isn't just some random pirate, he's creating a warband so large that it's starting to challenge the Legions of old themselves in numbers.

The Chaos Gods aren't just accepting Marine Chapters, but actively corrupting them. Ahriman now has the resources of an entire Black Crusade to use to find the Black Library. Typhus, Kharn, Lucius, Fulgrim, Angron, Perturabo, Mortarion, Ahriman, Lorgar, ALL OF THEM ARE ON ABADDON'S SIDE! They have all vowed to join the Thirteenth Black Crusade.

Abaddon has a Daemon Prince under his control who has seen the end of time, he is responsible for Typhus' zombie plague (being spread FOR Abaddon), he is responsible for Cypher getting more and more active.

Chaos lore is not weak. Chaos lore is not pathetic. Chaos lore is simply being ignored. The Chaos brand is in a fantastic place.

You keep saying Saturday morning villain, but have any of you read ADB's Talon of Horus or the Black Crusade supplement's fluff? Abaddon doesn't just sit back and cackle as he puts together idiotic plans. His plans are coming to fruition. Now. The Chaos Space Marines are not just "evil" marines. I'm not sure where the fluff getting diluted came from, but have you read the stories of how some of the renegades turned to Chaos or the way the Legions are treating each other in the Eye? The Chaos Marines are literally becoming their weapons and hatred, physical manifestations of just how much they hate the Imperium. The "brand" of Chaos is to put away discipline, wear your emotions outwardly, and use that to conquer the galaxy. The Chaos Gods unleash a pantheon of emotions that the Space Marines are simply not meant to have. The "brand" is going in a fantastic place and the lore supports it. Now the hardware needs to catch up. The model line needs updating, the rules need updating, and they will be.

Is the rebranding of Chaos a part of why it's taking so long to get an update? Hell yes. No question about it. The brand is there and it is awesome. Now it needs to be implemented.

The theme? Chaos Marines are the mailed fist of the Gods. Abaddon's jabbed at the Imperium, and now we have the Talon of Horus kidney shot on its way. Emotions are a weapon and I guarantee we'll see this. "A blade made of pure hatred, a gun which fires the burning anguish of guilt, armor sculpted from the smoke of arrogance." Chaos is all about the immaterial and impossible turning material.

The niche? An army that snowballs as it plays. Does it do this well right now? No. But it will. And KDK is a step in the right direction.

I will add that the Chaos codices as viable armies are not the point of this discussion and genuinely don't belong in this thread. This is not a rules debate or a "why does Chaos suck?" thread. What can poor OP do against such wreckless hate?

 Kraytirous wrote:
It is almost ironic how appropriate the internal strife within the Chaos community is. Like our very own Eye of Terror. It gives my tentacles goosebumps just thinking about it.

...

I will add that the Chaos codices as viable armies are not the point of this discussion and genuinely don't belong in this thread. This is not a rules debate or a "why does Chaos suck?" thread. What can poor OP do against such wreckless hate?

Unite the Legions of Chaos! Down with the false Emperor! Smash the General Discussion forum!

Nice post!

Forum threads are like internet articles. You read the title and not the writing in it.

I think Chaos is getting the Dark Eldar style overhaul. It's gonna be big, pretty and worth the wait.

Hopefully the Legions get representation and instead of buffs to friendly units, it's debuffs to enemy units. I don't play chaos in 40k but I'd like to see them become the Uber threat they're supposed to be. These guys broke the Imperium and it's been stagnating ever since and the rules need to reflect that the CSM mean [/u]business[u].

As mentioned before, most of the CSM range is made of dated kits, fully finecast or partially finecast kits. Example in point- the Havocs. Give them their own dedicated kit with Heresy tech, Dark mechanicus weapons, funky daemon ectoplasma cannons, the lot. With the reliable rumour mongers stating 2017 is when the 7th edition Chaos dex hits, we've at least 12 months for GW to finish off kit development and production etc etc.

 Kraytirous wrote:
(...)

When Chaos Space Marines are referred to as "saturday morning cartoon villains" it's usually meant to represent GW's general attitude towards them in the last 10 years. Basically, after the Eye of Terror campaign, someone decided CSM were too good for their own good and thus the pathetic 4th edition armybook came to existence.

It's true 6th ed. added a few nice pieces of interesting new fluff. In fact I'd go as far as to say that the Abyssal Crusade is a worthy new addition. Yet the "peaking" Chaos, when it came to rules, got the short, corroded and covered in gak end of the stick.

I don't think revamping CSM is such the titanic task some people seem to believe. For starters, get the 3.5 book, adapt its rules and point costs to the current edition, then add the new bits from 6th ed. codex. Done. Not perfect, but it would be miles better than what we currently have.

Exalted your post btw, a nice read even if I don't completely agree with it.

 Konrax wrote:
I just want a codex that every unit has a table you need to roll on before it does anything.

And another table that gives random buffs you roll on when it kills stuff, and finally another table that you roll on to see which other tble you roll on next.

Lastly each table should have a chance to hurt you or kill you since it is only logical that after navigating all these tables you should must have a chance to do it all for nothing.

Then and only then will Chaos truly be free.

Yes, ask Ork players how much they loooooove Mob Rule, because it's random and fun and Orky!

In all seriousness, I think it was a cool rule, and it does fit Orks. But you can't imagine the amount of complaining Chaos players would do is their units could instagib themselves randomly at any point for no reason. Even if it fits, no one will like it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:
I think Chaos is getting the Dark Eldar style overhaul. It's gonna be big, pretty and worth the wait.

OH gawd, my sides!

My biggest issue is this:

In the fluff, Chaos don't have access to everything SM have. But SM keep getting more things, and the fluff stops Chaos getting it, or even getting some more of the original things we previously couldnt.

Why can't we get more normal things?
I'd like a few more typical marine options, not just mutated stuff.

I think part of the problem is that Chaos is just too big. I mean, you can justifiably argue that every model in the Imperium is available to Chaos to use, in addition to anything coming out of the warp. I took a look at the most recent codex when it came out and thought it was boring too. And when they put the daemons in another codex, it just made them both boring on their own, and I didn't want to spend $100 on two books. Its bad enough flipping thru one during a game.

The problem is, putting everything in one codex would result in a gigantic tome. And how much time do you want to spend on individual legions or renegade chapters? They all do have a rich history and we don't like losing those details. But even the Imperium is now broken up into many codexes, which tends to feel right because we have an acceptance on how the Imperium is administered I guess. But Chaos is different. Chaos can be anywhere and in a variety of forms, and to combine them as allies ends up costing a lot of money collecting a variety of codexes.

I dont know what the best answer is, so can't hold it against GW.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
I just want a codex that every unit has a table you need to roll on before it does anything.

And another table that gives random buffs you roll on when it kills stuff, and finally another table that you roll on to see which other tble you roll on next.

Lastly each table should have a chance to hurt you or kill you since it is only logical that after navigating all these tables you should must have a chance to do it all for nothing.

Then and only then will Chaos truly be free.

Yes, ask Ork players how much they loooooove Mob Rule, because it's random and fun and Orky!

In all seriousness, I think it was a cool rule, and it does fit Orks. But you can't imagine the amount of complaining Chaos players would do is their units could instagib themselves randomly at any point for no reason. Even if it fits, no one will like it.

Champion of Chaos
A model with the Champion of Chaos special rule must always issue and accept a challenge in every Assault Phase if not already fighting a challenge. If there are no enemy characters in the combat, then the champion must challenge a friendly character instead and the friendly character is treated as an enemy character for the remainder of the combat. If there are no friendly characters, then the champion must challenge a randomly selected enemy model and that model is then treated as an enemy character for the remainder of the combat. If there are no enemy models, then the champion must challenge a randomly selected friendly model and the friendly model is treated as an enemy character until the opponent's next Shooting Phase.

 Korinov wrote:

 Kraytirous wrote:
(...)

When Chaos Space Marines are referred to as "saturday morning cartoon villains" it's usually meant to represent GW's general attitude towards them in the last 10 years. Basically, after the Eye of Terror campaign, someone decided CSM were too good for their own good and thus the pathetic 4th edition armybook came to existence.

It's true 6th ed. added a few nice pieces of interesting new fluff. In fact I'd go as far as to say that the Abyssal Crusade is a worthy new addition. Yet the "peaking" Chaos, when it came to rules, got the short, corroded and covered in gak end of the stick.

I don't think revamping CSM is such the titanic task some people seem to believe. For starters, get the 3.5 book, adapt its rules and point costs to the current edition, then add the new bits from 6th ed. codex. Done. Not perfect, but it would be miles better than what we currently have.

Exalted your post btw, a nice read even if I don't completely agree with it.

For myself, the past decade has simply soured me too much due to how GW has routinely inserted their Loyalist boot up our collective .

The complete & total gutting of every characterful & fluffy rule and ability with the 4th ed codex was bad enough. it would have been easier to stomach if Jervis's ideas had simply been ignored altogether, (as he was the one who decided to "simplify everything!"), or else if they'd just stuck to that one design for the following books...
But noooooooo. Orks got a midway codex between over-simplification and some character alongside Daemons, but then GW went completely bonkers starting with Vanilla Marines and went whole hog on fleshing everything back out.

And then when it came time to give us our 6th ed codex, not only did they continue to ignore our ancient model line, but they didn't even give us back the barest basics of what they stripped from us with the previous book!
Case in point, look how 100% useless our Land Raider is... Not only is it the worst variant, but we still lack our old Infernal Device rule that at least allowed it to function at a basic level on the table.

The fact that Loyalist scum keep getting every possible toy under the sun, AND, stealing many of our own unique toys yet with vastly improved versions, is just some extra salt routinely rubbed into the wound.



While the optimist in me wants to believe that GW is finally pulling their collective head out of their arse and will give us our long deserved due, the more practical pessimist in me says, "don't get any hopes up, because Chaos sucking is good for Loyalist sales!"

We're at the point where 2017 literally needs to be 3-4 complete months of 40k Chaos in order to rectify the multitude of problems we face between our rules & play styles that are now 3-4 entire editions out of date, to our model line that is now in worse shape than the bloody Sister of Battle! (sure, all metal, expensive & hard to come by, but at least they can readily build almost all of their various upgrade options out of their own damn model line!!)

Sadly, the Eye of Terror campaign proved that Chaos 'winning' or really showing itself to be the biggest threat was a huge loss for GW. Too many Loyalist players who screamed & wailed endlessly that it wasn't fair and the results were stupid, against the fluff, etc...

As we often joke amongst ourselves, Chaos can't have nice things, because it upsets the Smurfs too much!

Chaos can't have nice things? We won, dude. We won Warhammer fantasy. We killed every meaningful character, martyred every good-guy and destroyed the world with every force imaginable arrayed against us, from Dark Elf, to Nagash, to Sigmar himself. We won. And then we got a massive model line update for it which is essentially compatible with 40k. I'm not sure how Chaos can simultaneously be getting kicked by the "Loyalist boot" and be the lore powerhouse in TWO universes. The branding is fantastic, it's simply the hardware that needs to catch up.

The reason why loyalists get every "toy under the sun" is that they have a clearly developed product line which is going to continue modularly moving forwards. Their advancement is in finding new technology and finding new ways of inducting that tech into their methodology for war. Hence new formations, new weapons, new chapter tactics. GW is simply sharpening the image of the Space Marines. Even the xenos races are pretty much just getting a stronger, more focused army that simply does what they already did in a stronger and more interesting way. I'll be honest, though, I'm not sure which of "our toys" they got.

Chaos is not at that point in the design paradigm. Chaos is still at the 5th edition point of the design paradigm because the brand which has been irrevocably produced in the fluff is not yet supported by models and rules.

I'm not sure what the Eye of Terror campaign has to do with this thread, as it was ages ago and the Chaos brand has changed significantly since.