Kraytirous wrote:
Chaos can't have nice things? We won, dude. We won Warhammer fantasy. We killed every meaningful character, martyred every good-guy and destroyed the world with every force imaginable arrayed against us, from Dark Elf, to Nagash, to Sigmar himself. We won. And then we got a massive model line update for it which is essentially compatible with 40k. I'm not sure how Chaos can simultaneously be getting kicked by the "Loyalist boot" and be the lore powerhouse in TWO universes. The branding is fantastic, it's simply the hardware that needs to catch up.

 Kraytirous wrote:
Chaos can't have nice things? We won, dude. We won Warhammer fantasy. We killed every meaningful character, martyred every good-guy and destroyed the world with every force imaginable arrayed against us, from Dark Elf, to Nagash, to Sigmar himself. We won. And then we got a massive model line update for it which is essentially compatible with 40k. I'm not sure how Chaos can simultaneously be getting kicked by the "Loyalist boot" and be the lore powerhouse in TWO universes. The branding is fantastic, it's simply the hardware that needs to catch up.

 Kraytirous wrote:
The reason why loyalists get every "toy under the sun" is that they have a clearly developed product line which is going to continue modularly moving forwards. Their advancement is in finding new technology and finding new ways of inducting that tech into their methodology for war. Hence new formations, new weapons, new chapter tactics. GW is simply sharpening the image of the Space Marines. Even the xenos races are pretty much just getting a stronger, more focused army that simply does what they already did in a stronger and more interesting way. I'll be honest, though, I'm not sure which of "our toys" they got.

 Kraytirous wrote:
Chaos is not at that point in the design paradigm. Chaos is still at the 5th edition point of the design paradigm because the brand which has been irrevocably produced in the fluff is not yet supported by models and rules.

I'm not sure what the Eye of Terror campaign has to do with this thread, as it was ages ago and the Chaos brand has changed significantly since.

Kraytirous wrote:What amuses me the most about these threads is that, despite ignoring the OP and simply fielding everyone's own grievances, they are representative of exactly why Chaos has yet to really win in 40k. We are united in our hatred but that hatred quickly turns inward.

It is almost ironic how appropriate the internal strife within the Chaos community is. Like our very own Eye of Terror. It gives my tentacles goosebumps just thinking about it.

In regards to the OP:

The rebranding of Chaos as a GW specific faction is definitely a genuine problem. What do you call a faction that is both Adeptus Astartes but not? What do you call a unit that is Space Marine but not Space Marine? More importantly, what do you call a unit which has held the same name for so long that it has become synonymous with some pop-culture references that defy trademarking?

The various units within the book are probably not going to get much renaming, but the book itself will need to be called something else and fit into the mythos. Most importantly of all Chaos Space Marines are the ultimate driving force beyond the impending apocalypse.

Hear me out. Tyranids are "coming." Necrons are "awakening." Tau are "expanding." Orks are "uniting." What's Chaos doing? Chaos has united, expanded, and awakened. The daemon-primarchs are not just debating interfering, they have all been brought out (except Magnus, screw that guy). Abaddon's thirteenth Black Crusade is HAPPENING.

The issue is that in creating the CSM Codex, GW has to make a VERY important decision. Do they do what they did in 7th edition of Fantasy and 40k thus far, have the clock a minute before midnight? Or do they finally let the bell tole midnight and let hell loose?

The reason this is important is because if the CSM codex is released it will need to either be appropriately prepared for the coming massive campaign in order to stay relevant, or it will need to be sufficiently powerful and new without spoiling the coming campaign.

Long story short, GW needs to choose what to do with the coming Apocalypse that Abaddon is going to bring to the Imperium. Will it be like the End Times? At that point, forget a new Codex, just make a bunch of new releases like Kau'yon. Will it be like The Storm of Chaos and Thirteenth Black Crusade events, where the supplements are campaign specific and the take-aways become army-wide? At that point, a codex remake makes sense.

The issue with the branding of Chaos is that it is so pivotal to GW's coming plans that they have to very carefully decide on a timeframe for the future of 40k. A future that Chaos (as has been mirrored in AoS) will have a massive part to play in.

GW doesn't need "help" finding a place for CSM as a niche or a theme in 40k. They have that niche and theme in spades. Fluff wise Chaos is at its peak. Abaddon is no longer armless and a failure, read the Black Legion supplement's fluff. Huron Blackheart isn't just some random pirate, he's creating a warband so large that it's starting to challenge the Legions of old themselves in numbers.

The Chaos Gods aren't just accepting Marine Chapters, but actively corrupting them. Ahriman now has the resources of an entire Black Crusade to use to find the Black Library. Typhus, Kharn, Lucius, Fulgrim, Angron, Perturabo, Mortarion, Ahriman, Lorgar, ALL OF THEM ARE ON ABADDON'S SIDE! They have all vowed to join the Thirteenth Black Crusade.

Abaddon has a Daemon Prince under his control who has seen the end of time, he is responsible for Typhus' zombie plague (being spread FOR Abaddon), he is responsible for Cypher getting more and more active.

Chaos lore is not weak. Chaos lore is not pathetic. Chaos lore is simply being ignored. The Chaos brand is in a fantastic place.

You keep saying Saturday morning villain, but have any of you read ADB's Talon of Horus or the Black Crusade supplement's fluff? Abaddon doesn't just sit back and cackle as he puts together idiotic plans. His plans are coming to fruition. Now. The Chaos Space Marines are not just "evil" marines. I'm not sure where the fluff getting diluted came from, but have you read the stories of how some of the renegades turned to Chaos or the way the Legions are treating each other in the Eye? The Chaos Marines are literally becoming their weapons and hatred, physical manifestations of just how much they hate the Imperium. The "brand" of Chaos is to put away discipline, wear your emotions outwardly, and use that to conquer the galaxy. The Chaos Gods unleash a pantheon of emotions that the Space Marines are simply not meant to have. The "brand" is going in a fantastic place and the lore supports it. Now the hardware needs to catch up. The model line needs updating, the rules need updating, and they will be.

Is the rebranding of Chaos a part of why it's taking so long to get an update? Hell yes. No question about it. The brand is there and it is awesome. Now it needs to be implemented.

The theme? Chaos Marines are the mailed fist of the Gods. Abaddon's jabbed at the Imperium, and now we have the Talon of Horus kidney shot on its way. Emotions are a weapon and I guarantee we'll see this. "A blade made of pure hatred, a gun which fires the burning anguish of guilt, armor sculpted from the smoke of arrogance." Chaos is all about the immaterial and impossible turning material.

The niche? An army that snowballs as it plays. Does it do this well right now? No. But it will. And KDK is a step in the right direction.

I will add that the Chaos codices as viable armies are not the point of this discussion and genuinely don't belong in this thread. This is not a rules debate or a "why does Chaos suck?" thread. What can poor OP do against such wreckless hate?

A lone Hellbrute, who still managed to not include a Heavy flamer!

 Kraytirous wrote:
I'll be honest, though, I'm not sure which of "our toys" they got.

 Kraytirous wrote:
Guys, the Eye of Terror campaign was a campaign. On a global scale with some cool mechanics, but it was a campaign. You play through Kauyon and due to your amazing die rolls the assassins actually manage to kill the entire Tau leadership. Do you expect GW to honor your wishes and allow you to remove them from the lore? No, it was only the two of you playing. What if one player per assassin and one player per Tau leader. Six people certainly matter more, right? But no, that would still be ridiculous. The Kauyon campaign is a way of playing through the war and finding out what would of happened if YOU were in command, rolling the dice, etc. The Eye of Terror campaign was a way of exploring what the Thirteenth Black Crusade would be like if it did start. It was not meant to HAVE lasting effects on the game. Also Chaos won because a small handful of jerks banded together and decided to completely undermine the campaign by meta-gaming the living warpdust out of it, and essentially ruining any chance of fair play for the loyalists. So not only do I not consider the Eye of Terror campaign to have any true meaning in the broader context of the game world aside from providing some awesome stories, but I also don't consider it a legitimately fair campaign.

I'm not sure why your counter-arguments are "we need new models," "we need new rules," and "we haven't gotten them." I'm agreeing with you and said the same thing twice already. This thread is not about what we need, it's exploring an interesting idea behind why it's not coming.

What is it that you don't like about the Chaos brand? You call us a punching bag, but we're about to conquer the galaxy. So I disagree with that.

@Davor: The Thirteenth Black Crusade is not coming, it is here and it has started. Cadia is under siege, the Eye of Terror is growing, Warp Zombies are popping up all over the galaxy. They reset the clock and now it's ready to hit midnight with twice as many bells ringing. Human psykers are popping up everywhere and losing their minds, then getting possessed by daemons.

@Experiment 626: I never said we got an overhaul, I said we got a new line of models. I'm not sure what Fantasy's state as a modelling line has to do with the fact that Chaos was victorious and that our brand is getting cooler with every release.

Andy Chambers: The biggest campaign in Games Workshop's history has drawn to a close. Over forty thousand players have sent in more than quarter of a million game results over eight weeks to decide the fate of the Cadian Gate. We've had mare results posted in a single day than in the entire Armageddon campaign - and we thought that was big!

At the last the combined efforts of the forces of Order kept Abaddon from his ultimate goal of controlling the Cadian system but. in the process, the Cadian Gate has been ravaged. Many bastions have fallen to the forces of Chaos and may never be recovered, the warp storms surrounding the Eye have expanded to engulf whole systems. The fighting on others could continue for decades to come. With the worlds captured the forces of Disorder are now positioned to launch attacks into more Imperial worlds. The Cadian Gate may not be open to the forces of Chaos, but their minions are over the walls in unprecedented numbers.

The campaign has been massive in scale and a wonderful example of what can be achieved today. Less than a decade ago Jervis Johnson ran Ichar IV, our first mega campaign which used results from across the globe to determine its results - by post no less! The Eye ot Terror set a new record for sheer 'bigness' and. as with its predecessors, will form a cornerstone of the nich background of the Warhammer 40.000 universe in the years to come. For all those who have taken part and made it passible I extend both heartfelt gratitude and congratulations on making something so truly gargantuan possible. Ave Imperator! Death to the False Emperor! Here's to the battles yet to come.

Six people certainly matter more, right? But no, that would still be ridiculous

Experiment 626 wrote:
[spoiler][They forgot or didn't understand that the vast majority of the Loyalist player base were kids & teens, while the Chaos & Xenos forces for the most part were older gamers.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm not sure they would risk doing that. GWs six months financials weren't pretty and almost everything during that period that released was AOS. I think they did fantasy as a test and it doesn't seem to have worked out for them.

Experiment 626 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm not sure they would risk doing that. GWs six months financials weren't pretty and almost everything during that period that released was AOS. I think they did fantasy as a test and it doesn't seem to have worked out for them.

Fantasy was pretty much a dead system that couldn't get any worse financially. GW blowing up 40k as is for an Age of Sicarius re-boot would be a level of stupid that I don't think even GW could possibly commit!

Keeping Chaos in the dirt as the lowliest of the low though? That's just maintaining the status quo at this point!

 Kraytirous wrote:
Chaos can't have nice things? We won, dude. We won Warhammer fantasy. We killed every meaningful character, martyred every good-guy and destroyed the world with every force imaginable arrayed against us, from Dark Elf, to Nagash, to Sigmar himself. We won. And then we got a massive model line update for it which is essentially compatible with 40k. I'm not sure how Chaos can simultaneously be getting kicked by the "Loyalist boot" and be the lore powerhouse in TWO universes. The branding is fantastic, it's simply the hardware that needs to catch up.

The reason why loyalists get every "toy under the sun" is that they have a clearly developed product line which is going to continue modularly moving forwards. Their advancement is in finding new technology and finding new ways of inducting that tech into their methodology for war. Hence new formations, new weapons, new chapter tactics. GW is simply sharpening the image of the Space Marines. Even the xenos races are pretty much just getting a stronger, more focused army that simply does what they already did in a stronger and more interesting way. I'll be honest, though, I'm not sure which of "our toys" they got.

Chaos is not at that point in the design paradigm. Chaos is still at the 5th edition point of the design paradigm because the brand which has been irrevocably produced in the fluff is not yet supported by models and rules.

I'm not sure what the Eye of Terror campaign has to do with this thread, as it was ages ago and the Chaos brand has changed significantly since.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:


Dude..., really?, you're comparing a campaign book that you play with your 8 friends and will have relevance only in your group, and a WORLD WIDE CAMPAIGN wher ALL THE PLAYERS AROUND THE WORLD at the time played?...

GW never said "hey lets do this 13th crusade thingy and lets see what "COULD" happen but it won't matter", NO, GW stated and promised the community that 13th Crusade WOULD HAVE CONSEQUENCES and INFLUENCE AND SHAPE THE FUTUR OF 40K.

Chaos strategy meetings on the official boards of the time was certainly more then "an handfull of meta gaming jerks"..., WE where thousands of users all around the world, devisiing strategies late at night, with threads so huge that it would but the whole Dakka boards to shame.

Where every players was suggesting things, and took things to heart and in a fluffy way, with a tight structure an organisation, even if sometimes there was some issues because of some strong willed people, in the end ALL the player of the DISORDER faction worked hand in hand to net the results necesary to conquer those star systemes.

Giving off results that where in the WD and on the GW official site each week with Andy CHambers going over the big events of the week, where you had Batreps and pictures of Huge games from GW shops and FLGS all around the freakin world, where you could find games of 50.000pts per side in an era where Apocalypse din't exists!.


By seeing your post i'm positive and sure that you din't participate in the campaign at the time and that you have no idea of what you're talking about, because every single thing you stated in your post is completly opposite of how things was.

Here's a little documentation for you; http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/w40k_eyeofterror.html

Here is just a "small" passage of the latest Newsletter of the campaign, written by Andy Chambers who was supervising the campaign at the time and was one of the big shots at GW.

Andy Chambers: The biggest campaign in Games Workshop's history has drawn to a close. Over forty thousand players have sent in more than quarter of a million game results over eight weeks to decide the fate of the Cadian Gate. We've had mare results posted in a single day than in the entire Armageddon campaign - and we thought that was big!

At the last the combined efforts of the forces of Order kept Abaddon from his ultimate goal of controlling the Cadian system but. in the process, the Cadian Gate has been ravaged. Many bastions have fallen to the forces of Chaos and may never be recovered, the warp storms surrounding the Eye have expanded to engulf whole systems. The fighting on others could continue for decades to come. With the worlds captured the forces of Disorder are now positioned to launch attacks into more Imperial worlds. The Cadian Gate may not be open to the forces of Chaos, but their minions are over the walls in unprecedented numbers.

The campaign has been massive in scale and a wonderful example of what can be achieved today. Less than a decade ago Jervis Johnson ran Ichar IV, our first mega campaign which used results from across the globe to determine its results - by post no less! The Eye ot Terror set a new record for sheer 'bigness' and. as with its predecessors, will form a cornerstone of the nich background of the Warhammer 40.000 universe in the years to come. For all those who have taken part and made it passible I extend both heartfelt gratitude and congratulations on making something so truly gargantuan possible. Ave Imperator! Death to the False Emperor! Here's to the battles yet to come.

Please tell me again the comparaison between Kuyon campaign and EoT campaign?...,

Six people certainly matter more, right? But no, that would still be ridiculous

...so by your standard we should have what we want right?, since by your stabdards the more people, the rigther?, because like Andy newsletter said there was over 40.000 people who participated in EoT, and not just figuratively, all those 40.000 people where registered on GW website to give their results and in wich of the 67 War sectors they where putting their results in.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
My reaction steemed from your comment that GW neve said that the campaign would have any consequences for the game, while at the time it was what they where baiting us into playing it.

I still have the WD, where you can read stuff like " ...participate into the making of the futur of 40k", or "shape the destiny of the universe for years to come".

It was said, and written, that what we where doing WILL have consequences and CHANGE the lore of 40k, we believed it, because at the time we had no reasons whatsoever to not trust GW, at the time they where trustworthy, its after that they the community became salty and started hating GW for not keeping their word.

Now things are how they are, and all this is old, i agree, but don't say that we where "wishing" or anything like that, and that it should not had any bearings on the 40k universe at the time, because thats what we fought for at the time.

And using Kauyon( i cannot take this name seriously, since its sounds too muich like couillon, and couillon in french means "stupid/ballsack") as a comparaison to EoT is like comparing a childs doodle with Vangogh or Piccaso, its laughable at best.

Now i get your point that a campaign is just that, a campaign.

Where you are wrong is that EoT was a GLOBAL campaign, that had as ultimate goal to reshape the 40k univers.

Its not just the number of people that participates in it, that matters, its the reward that GW flung under our noses and the implication of this that matters.

So please, don't compare the two of them anymore, because there is simply no comparaison.

Tycho wrote:
@kraytirous:
They are the comic book super villian that looks big and had but loses to a 120 pound Peter Parker at the end of every issue.

 Kraytirous wrote:
we won Warhammer fantasy.