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Found this as well
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/sheriff_says_militants_came_to.html

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Hardly, there's no legal issue across multiple jurisdictions. Trial rulings, even jury ones, can be revisited by appellate courts, and this one is easy. If the minimum term is X and the jury gives less than X, then thats not following the law and trial court should act.

Is that how it works in Oregon? That juries decide the sentence? Over here that's the Judge's job.

Some jurisdictions have the judges do it, others are different. I do not know how the federal system does the punishment phase.

Making goodbye videos for your family is creepy as all hell.

I reckon if it was a group of Muslim extremists doing exactly the same thing it would be called terrorism and way more people would be freaking out.

Right Wing extremists have killed more people in the US than Jihadists since 9/11. Though obviously the numbers change significantly if you start counting from 9/10.

(Oh, and the IRA are a predominantly (but not exclusively) Catholic group - the UVF is the predominantly Protestant terrorist group in that conflict)

Right Wing extremists have killed more people in the US than Jihadists since 9/11

Its like I was with you until you made this statement, which assumes facts not in evidence.

Please cite your evidence.

 Da Boss wrote:
Making goodbye videos for your family is creepy as all hell.

I reckon if it was a group of Muslim extremists doing exactly the same thing it would be called terrorism and way more people would be freaking out.

You would have the Fox first line of defense up making it Obama's fault and wanting military action NOW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

Right Wing extremists have killed more people in the US than Jihadists since 9/11

Its like I was with you until you made this statement, which assumes facts not in evidence.

Please cite your evidence.

For what it is worth I found this for him.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jan/08/sally-kohn/kohn-911-right-wing-extremists-killed-more-america/

 CptJake wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Man, we've got to remember this thread happened the next time someone claims there is no such thing as white privilege.

Agreed. If it were anybody else, that building would be a crater by now.

Bull gak.

I agree. I think the lessons from Waco and Ruby Ridge have been gone over time and again. Where was white privilage when all those kids died in a fire started by the ATF at Waco or when a dog and boy was shot from ambush or a mother holding a baby was shot by a sniper with a clear vision of her at Ruby Ridge? As I recall, that sniper got promoted.
Think about the situation. A group of people in an isolated area in the middle of the woods. There is no need to charge in like Rambo, just wait them out. Some people are too quick to yell white privilage.
When Alcatraz was taken over by AIM in a far more violent fashion, there were no guns blazing either. They were just waited out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 reds8n wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
There is a nickname going around for these guys
YallQeada

I've seen "Vanilla isis" which whilst a bit wide of the mark trips off the tongue wonderfully.

It might trip of the tongue wonderfully, but minimizes the abomination of ISIS or Al Queada. As much as I despise militias based on personal contact with people in them, they don't go around decapitating men, women and children wholesale or kidnap and rape women by the thousands. ISIS and Al Qeada are in a league of their own.

 Vash108 wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Making goodbye videos for your family is creepy as all hell.

I reckon if it was a group of Muslim extremists doing exactly the same thing it would be called terrorism and way more people would be freaking out.

You would have the Fox first line of defense up making it Obama's fault and wanting military action NOW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

Right Wing extremists have killed more people in the US than Jihadists since 9/11

Its like I was with you until you made this statement, which assumes facts not in evidence.

Please cite your evidence.

For what it is worth I found this for him.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jan/08/sally-kohn/kohn-911-right-wing-extremists-killed-more-america/

Jan of 15? I suspect you could find a few more deaths from both groups since then, but I think the recent San Bernardino attack kills and the attacks on the recruiting stations will push the numbers towards the radical islamist cause...

 CptJake wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Making goodbye videos for your family is creepy as all hell.

I reckon if it was a group of Muslim extremists doing exactly the same thing it would be called terrorism and way more people would be freaking out.

You would have the Fox first line of defense up making it Obama's fault and wanting military action NOW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

Right Wing extremists have killed more people in the US than Jihadists since 9/11

Its like I was with you until you made this statement, which assumes facts not in evidence.

Please cite your evidence.

For what it is worth I found this for him.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jan/08/sally-kohn/kohn-911-right-wing-extremists-killed-more-america/

Jan of 15? I suspect you could find a few more deaths from both groups since then, but I think the recent San Bernardino attack kills and the attacks on the recruiting stations will push the numbers towards the radical islamist cause...

Looks like right-wing is still ahead by 3:
http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks.html

 CptJake wrote:


Jan of 15? I suspect you could find a few more deaths from both groups since then, but I think the recent San Bernardino attack kills and the attacks on the recruiting stations will push the numbers towards the radical islamist cause...

I am sure the numbers on both sides have changed. I would be interested in finding an updated total. We have had serval people shot since then as well like that guy who shot up the Planned Parenthood site, his name was Robert Dear I think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 agnosto wrote:


Looks like right-wing is still ahead by 3:
http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks.html

That works as well.

I would like to also state that 1 death is too many, period. The enticement of violence against others is horrific in itself and it disgusts me.

 agnosto wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Making goodbye videos for your family is creepy as all hell.

I reckon if it was a group of Muslim extremists doing exactly the same thing it would be called terrorism and way more people would be freaking out.

You would have the Fox first line of defense up making it Obama's fault and wanting military action NOW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

Right Wing extremists have killed more people in the US than Jihadists since 9/11

Its like I was with you until you made this statement, which assumes facts not in evidence.

Please cite your evidence.

For what it is worth I found this for him.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jan/08/sally-kohn/kohn-911-right-wing-extremists-killed-more-america/

Jan of 15? I suspect you could find a few more deaths from both groups since then, but I think the recent San Bernardino attack kills and the attacks on the recruiting stations will push the numbers towards the radical islamist cause...

Looks like right-wing is still ahead by 3:
http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks.html

Is it a contest?

The 'score' depends on how you count. This site (biased) lists a lot more: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm

I would rule out a few of those as domestic violence but some sound valid.

 CptJake wrote:
The 'score' depends on how you count. This site (biased) lists a lot more: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm

I would rule out a few of those as domestic violence but some sound valid.

Your word, "bias" is accurate.

 agnosto wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
The 'score' depends on how you count. This site (biased) lists a lot more: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm

I would rule out a few of those as domestic violence but some sound valid.

Your word, "bias" is accurate.

Which is why I used it.

Relapse wrote:
Think about the situation. A group of people in an isolated area in the middle of the woods. There is no need to charge in like Rambo, just wait them out. Some people are too quick to yell white privilage.

I agree that waiting on them is the best way to go forward, but I think you probably can't say with a straight face that if these guys had been carrying AK47s instead of AR-15s, and had hung an ISIL flag out front, and had been recorded reciting the prayer for the dying - much the way these guys did! - that the response would be the same.

I agree with Vash: you'd have Fox News every hour on the hour screaming about how weak Obama is about dealing with these terrorists on US soil, and how it's a military problem vs a law enforcement problem. You wouldn't have Jihadin rooting for them to "stick it to the man". For damn sure, you wouldn't have people quibbling about the exact precise number of people killed by domestic terrorists since 9/11 in a sort of sick way to downplay domestic extremism.

Jihadin, I am sure, was being sarcastic.

One point: You wouldn't see Jihadists do this type of thing in the US. It is totally against their targeting and messaging. Trying to compare this to a Jihadist attack, you need to look at domestic Jihadist attacks. They target things like the 'draw Mohamed' convention, or nice soft targets like the Christmas party they recently hit. They don't occupy buildings in the middle of the woods to make a point.

So, build the straw man waving his straw DaIsh banner all you want, it isn't the template they follow at all.

I'm rooting for them. Like I rooted for Bundy. One has to see how far they can go. When it becomes Racist then I stop rooting for them. If becomes a shootout....I want the video so I can dissect it like I do all others


Edit

Bundy Press Conference on Fox News

Human Rights? WTH.....Citizens for Constitutional Freedom......restore and defend the Constitution....Right to live in liberty...right to own property...reap the fruits of their labor.....Ranchers under assault by multiple Federal agency to take land from them...Private water being fenced off by the Fed's even though Oregon government ruled they have water rights....

Think I go hit myself in the head with a hammer instead of listening this guy.....

As I said earlier, they don't want comparisons to Waco or Ruby Ridge, either.

Relapse wrote:
As I said earlier, they don't want comparisons to Waco or Ruby Ridge, either.

Yeah... this ordeal is unique as it has nothing to do with the Hammond's conviction now?

To be honest, I am still not getting what the fuss is all about. There is a group of guys sitting in some empty building in the woods, "protesting".
To me it kinda feels like that one South Park episode:

Why not just leave them be and wait until they get tired and come out?

Honestly if it's just a bunch of people occupying a building, armed, then starve them out, then arrest them when they give up.

Refuse to rise to any provocations they may make, and also don't give any of your own, a shootout is not really beneficial to anyone.

Use of lethal force by either side would of course not be a "provocation".

Bundy and his family seem well off, yeah, see what happens when they cant take a shower for a few days and eat good food

Relapse wrote:
As I said earlier, they don't want comparisons to Waco or Ruby Ridge, either.

In this case, there is no comparison to Waco or Ruby Ridge as (according to the militia), they have no families present.
That is what made Waco and Ruby Ridge such clusterfecks. The presence of families on the premises.


First guy from the militia who points a weapon towards LEOs should get dropped, pure and simple.
The Bundy ranch standoff was stupidly handled as it allowed these kinds of yahoos to think that it's okay to do this garbage, but LEOs had their hands tied as these nutjobs brought their kids and wives to the "event" knowing they were going to be pointing guns at LEOs.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:
One point: You wouldn't see Jihadists do this type of thing in the US. It is totally against their targeting and messaging. Trying to compare this to a Jihadist attack, you need to look at domestic Jihadist attacks. They target things like the 'draw Mohamed' convention, or nice soft targets like the Christmas party they recently hit. They don't occupy buildings in the middle of the woods to make a point.

So, build the straw man waving his straw DaIsh banner all you want, it isn't the template they follow at all.

That's not strictly true. Jihadist attacks are strictly that: attacks. But that doesn't mean that jihadist groups don't perform attacks/actions that are not intended to be suicide attacks.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
One point: You wouldn't see Jihadists do this type of thing in the US. It is totally against their targeting and messaging. Trying to compare this to a Jihadist attack, you need to look at domestic Jihadist attacks. They target things like the 'draw Mohamed' convention, or nice soft targets like the Christmas party they recently hit. They don't occupy buildings in the middle of the woods to make a point.

So, build the straw man waving his straw DaIsh banner all you want, it isn't the template they follow at all.

That's not strictly true. Jihadist attacks are strictly that: attacks. But that doesn't mean that jihadist groups don't perform attacks/actions that are not intended to be suicide attacks.

I suspect you don't understand what I wrote. I never mentioned 'suicide attacks', I've never (in this topic or any other) indicated a belief that all or even most Jihadist attacks are suicide attacks.

Though I do thank you for helping make my point, occupying a building in the middle of nowhere is not an 'attack', especially not in the way Jihadist view them. It is not the type of action anyone in the intel or LEO field would worry about jihadists committing. It does not fit the (very loose) template they follow at all.

 CptJake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
One point: You wouldn't see Jihadists do this type of thing in the US. It is totally against their targeting and messaging. Trying to compare this to a Jihadist attack, you need to look at domestic Jihadist attacks. They target things like the 'draw Mohamed' convention, or nice soft targets like the Christmas party they recently hit. They don't occupy buildings in the middle of the woods to make a point.

So, build the straw man waving his straw DaIsh banner all you want, it isn't the template they follow at all.

That's not strictly true. Jihadist attacks are strictly that: attacks. But that doesn't mean that jihadist groups don't perform attacks/actions that are not intended to be suicide attacks.

I suspect you don't understand what I wrote. I never mentioned 'suicide attacks', I've never (in this topic or any other) indicated a belief that all or even most Jihadist attacks are suicide attacks.

I understood what you wrote. I think you don't understand why Ouze made the comparison he did. You specifically brought up two attacks where the perpetrators had no plans to be taken alive--that's great, but both of those were intended to be suicide attacks. They left messages behind, they made arrangements for things that would be done after their deaths, etc.
That's the methodology behind these so-called "jihadist attacks"--they are homegrown terrorists, inspired by the rhetoric from these jihadist groups where their goal is to cause as much death and destruction as possible before being brought down. They prepare themselves for death, knowing that they are not going to be taken alive.

It's not unlike what has been happening in Oregon. There's reports of these militiamen sending videos/messages to their families as though they expect to die.

Though I do thank you for helping make my point, occupying a building in the middle of nowhere is not an 'attack', especially not in the way Jihadist view them. It is not the type of action anyone in the intel or LEO field would worry about jihadists committing. It does not fit the (very loose) template they follow at all.

Occupying something by force is actually something that most certainly could be construed by attack, hence why Ouze made the comparison he did to begin with and said not a single damn thing about jihadists.
You brought the term jihadist into this line of conversation.

The difference here, Kan, is that I don't believe anyone thinks this is more than a show. Low-profile building, out of the way location, lots of big talk and that's it. They'll stay a while to prove their point and then quietly leave.

The notes and whatnot to family are just being made because they want people to believe that "the government" doesn't want them to be heard and will kill them to shut them up.

 agnosto wrote:
The difference here, Kan, is that I don't believe anyone thinks this is more than a show. Low-profile building, out of the way location, lots of big talk and that's it. They'll stay a while to prove their point and then quietly leave.

Right, but at the same time it emboldens them for the future.

Nip that crap in the bud. I can almost guarantee that if the Bundy ranch standoff had gone differently? We wouldn't be having this right here.

The notes and whatnot to family are just being made because they want people to believe that "the government" doesn't want them to be heard and will kill them to shut them up.

Of course that's the point--but hey, what is it that a large number of the Dakka ex-military types say whenever it's Islamic terrorism?
"If they want to be martyrs, why not let them be"?

If these people think that they have a tyrannical government--hey, let's give them one!

I laughed so hard

 Jihadin wrote:


I laughed so hard

Have you heard the various terms being thrown about as hashtags? Some of them are pretty great.

YAllQaeda, VanillaISIS, and groups that are waging "YeeHawd" amused me to no end.

Kan, did you miss how hurtful those terms are earlier in the thread? Please desist, lest we all be triggered.