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2016/01/04 20:43:46
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Have you heard the various terms being thrown about as hashtags? Some of them are pretty great.
YAllQaeda, VanillaISIS, and groups that are waging "YeeHawd" amused me to no end.
The wife texted me about VanillaIsis, but everytime I think it I get that stupid Ice Ice Baby song stuck in my head again, and there's only so many times you can dunk your own head in a toilet to drown out the screaming until your office workers start to become concerned.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/01/04 20:45:33
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
agnosto wrote: The difference here, Kan, is that I don't believe anyone thinks this is more than a show. Low-profile building, out of the way location, lots of big talk and that's it. They'll stay a while to prove their point and then quietly leave.
Right, but at the same time it emboldens them for the future.
Nip that crap in the bud. I can almost guarantee that if the Bundy ranch standoff had gone differently? We wouldn't be having this right here.
The notes and whatnot to family are just being made because they want people to believe that "the government" doesn't want them to be heard and will kill them to shut them up.
Of course that's the point--but hey, what is it that a large number of the Dakka ex-military types say whenever it's Islamic terrorism?
"If they want to be martyrs, why not let them be"?
If these people think that they have a tyrannical government--hey, let's give them one!
They were already emboldened when they got away with the highway standoff last year or whenever it was.
How much is it going to cost to have cops up there 24/7, in the cold, monitoring these wackos to make sure they don't do something stupid and hurt themselves?
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2016/01/04 20:46:09
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
agnosto wrote: The difference here, Kan, is that I don't believe anyone thinks this is more than a show. Low-profile building, out of the way location, lots of big talk and that's it. They'll stay a while to prove their point and then quietly leave.
Right, but at the same time it emboldens them for the future.
Nip that crap in the bud. I can almost guarantee that if the Bundy ranch standoff had gone differently? We wouldn't be having this right here.
The notes and whatnot to family are just being made because they want people to believe that "the government" doesn't want them to be heard and will kill them to shut them up.
Of course that's the point--but hey, what is it that a large number of the Dakka ex-military types say whenever it's Islamic terrorism?
"If they want to be martyrs, why not let them be"?
If these people think that they have a tyrannical government--hey, let's give them one!
They were already emboldened when they got away with the highway standoff last year or whenever it was.
How much is it going to cost to have cops up there 24/7, in the cold, monitoring these wackos to make sure they don't do something stupid and hurt themselves?
A stupid amount--let's make these yahoos pay it all back.
2016/01/04 20:47:18
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
The Bundy guys didn't use force to occupy the building, which was empty. They say they are prepared to use force to defend themselves if attacked while in it, but at the moment they are no threat to anyone.
As Relapse and Ouze both said, the best way to tackle this situation is to keep a light perimeter to stop the Bundys sloping off or receiving supplies from supporters, stop bystanders from getting into trouble by approaching, do nothing, and wait for the protestors to get fed up and decide to go home. Send in a negotiator once a day to check on progress of the Bundys' morale.
When they eventually decide to go home, you need a policy about whether to detain them or just let them go.
Have you heard the various terms being thrown about as hashtags? Some of them are pretty great.
YAllQaeda, VanillaISIS, and groups that are waging "YeeHawd" amused me to no end.
The wife texted me about VanillaIsis, but everytime I think it I get that stupid Ice Ice Baby song stuck in my head again, and there's only so many times you can dunk your own head in a toilet to drown out the screaming until your office workers start to become concerned.
I gotcha covered on this one Frazz!
Yo, CCF (Citizens for Constitutional Freedom), let's kick it!
ISIS ISIS baby, ISIS ISIS baby
All right stop, standoff, and listen
Bundy is back with my brand new invention
I grab a hold of my gun tightly
Talk like a crazy fool daily and nightly
Will it ever stop? Yo, I don't know
Turn off your brains and I'll glow
To the extreme I write graffiti like a vandal
Light up a news camera and wax my knob like a candle
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2016/01/04 20:54:57
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
I understood what you wrote. I think you don't understand why Ouze made the comparison he did. You specifically brought up two attacks where the perpetrators had no plans to be taken alive--that's great, but both of those were intended to be suicide attacks. They left messages behind, they made arrangements for things that would be done after their deaths, etc.
That's the methodology behind these so-called "jihadist attacks"--they are homegrown terrorists, inspired by the rhetoric from these jihadist groups where their goal is to cause as much death and destruction as possible before being brought down. They prepare themselves for death, knowing that they are not going to be taken alive.
It's not unlike what has been happening in Oregon. There's reports of these militiamen sending videos/messages to their families as though they expect to die.
Though I do thank you for helping make my point, occupying a building in the middle of nowhere is not an 'attack', especially not in the way Jihadist view them. It is not the type of action anyone in the intel or LEO field would worry about jihadists committing. It does not fit the (very loose) template they follow at all.
Occupying something by force is actually something that most certainly could be construed by attack, hence why Ouze made the comparison he did to begin with and said not a single damn thing about jihadists.
You brought the term jihadist into this line of conversation.
You really don't want to get it. Occupying an isolated building in the woods is not an 'attack' you're gonna se by jihadist. It just isn't. And there is no real indication the San Bernardino crew wanted to die. There is indication they intended to hit more targets.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2016/01/04 21:03:21
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Kilkrazy wrote: The Bundy guys didn't use force to occupy the building, which was empty. They say they are prepared to use force to defend themselves if attacked while in it, but at the moment they are no threat to anyone.
As Relapse and Ouze both said, the best way to tackle this situation is to keep a light perimeter to stop the Bundys sloping off or receiving supplies from supporters, stop bystanders from getting into trouble by approaching, do nothing, and wait for the protestors to get fed up and decide to go home. Send in a negotiator once a day to check on progress of the Bundys' morale.
When they eventually decide to go home, you need a policy about whether to detain them or just let them go.
It wasn't "empty" as much as it was "closed for the weekend", for what it's worth. I known some folks like to minimize this as a cabin, but it's actually a federal workspace.
I heard on the radio that they set up an armed roadblock to an observation tower now as well, anybody have anything on that?
2016/01/04 21:05:50
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Protesters have occupied a branch of Games Workshop in protest at rules changes which mean they may lose their favourite characters.
Described as ‘militant’ warhammer players, the group of 150 seized the Stevenage branch over New Year when it was lightly guarded and announced their intention to ‘kill or be killed’ in order to defend their expertly painted miniatures.
Warhammer fans are known as a tight-knit and insular group who live in seclusion, shun outsiders and massively overreact to any perceived threat to their highly prized armies.
Recent rules updates to Warhammer are believed to have sparked the protests, with thousands of players expected to lose to prized heroes and years of effort in learning complex, byzantine rules exploit, and this is seen as another flareup in years of conflict between Games Workshop and their customers.
Calling themselves Aelf-Queda, the group have confirmed their willingness to stay for years, as they’ve now got loads of figures and paints which will keep them occupied pretty much indefinitely.
Speaking to us through a pair of tin cans and a piece of string, Aelf-Queda member Simon Williams told us that the group had to take a “Hard Stand” over Games Workshop’s treatment of loyal customers.
“We’re calling on other groups to stand up and join us”, he said. “Especially anyone with a Chaos or Slaanesh army, as those bad boys can really tip things in your favour”.
“Why, no, I’ve never felt the loving touch of a woman, why do you ask?”
Games Workshop are reported to be ‘not that fussed’ by the protesters as they might not like the new rules but they’re still buying them.
MrDwhitey wrote: Kan, did you miss how hurtful those terms are earlier in the thread? Please desist, lest we all be triggered.
Triggered? Look out he's got a gun!!!
Sorry, its day 3 of OC cray cray in Texas. So far only one AK has been pointed at a child, and that child deserved it for wanting those chips!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/01/04 21:10:36
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
I understood what you wrote. I think you don't understand why Ouze made the comparison he did. You specifically brought up two attacks where the perpetrators had no plans to be taken alive--that's great, but both of those were intended to be suicide attacks. They left messages behind, they made arrangements for things that would be done after their deaths, etc.
That's the methodology behind these so-called "jihadist attacks"--they are homegrown terrorists, inspired by the rhetoric from these jihadist groups where their goal is to cause as much death and destruction as possible before being brought down. They prepare themselves for death, knowing that they are not going to be taken alive.
It's not unlike what has been happening in Oregon. There's reports of these militiamen sending videos/messages to their families as though they expect to die.
Though I do thank you for helping make my point, occupying a building in the middle of nowhere is not an 'attack', especially not in the way Jihadist view them. It is not the type of action anyone in the intel or LEO field would worry about jihadists committing. It does not fit the (very loose) template they follow at all.
Occupying something by force is actually something that most certainly could be construed by attack, hence why Ouze made the comparison he did to begin with and said not a single damn thing about jihadists.
You brought the term jihadist into this line of conversation.
You really don't want to get it.
No, I do want to get it. Unfortunately you really stuck your foot in it when you made an inept comparison to jihadists to begin with, ignoring the meat and potato of Ouze's comparison:
If this was a group with AKs and an ISIL flag having taken over the building--do you really think people like yourself would be saying "ride it out"?
Occupying an isolated building in the woods is not an 'attack' you're gonna see by jihadist. It just isn't.
Occupying an "isolated building in the woods" might not be an attack that a suicide attacker might make, certainly.
But an "isolated building in the woods" that is property of the US government is a different story, and you should well know that.
And there is no real indication the San Bernardino crew wanted to die.
"Wanting to die" and "being prepared to die" are not the same thing. If you want to argue semantics, be aware of them.
The San Bernadino crew made arrangements for their infant child, if that doesn't say "prepared to die"--I don't know what does.
There is indication they intended to hit more targets.
Yeah, and? The Tsarnev brothers wanted to hit more targets too. These kinds of attackers have more than one target they plan to hit. It doesn't mean that their intention is to actually hit all of them.
2016/01/04 21:11:22
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Well,the gak has hit the fan,now. President Lin, er Obama is calling on the northern states to provide 75,000 volunteers to help protect federal property.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/01/04 21:13:50
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Kilkrazy wrote: The Bundy guys didn't use force to occupy the building, which was empty. They say they are prepared to use force to defend themselves if attacked while in it, but at the moment they are no threat to anyone.
Whether the building was empty or not, it was likely locked up. In order to have gotten in--they would have needed to use force. Additionally, them claiming that they are "prepared to use force to defend themselves if attacked or threatened with forcible removal" is using force to occupy the building.
As Relapse and Ouze both said, the best way to tackle this situation is to keep a light perimeter to stop the Bundys sloping off or receiving supplies from supporters, stop bystanders from getting into trouble by approaching, do nothing, and wait for the protestors to get fed up and decide to go home. Send in a negotiator once a day to check on progress of the Bundys' morale.
Yeah, no. The best way to tackle this situation is to fire up one of those wonderful APCs that a large number of police organizations got from DHS as part of the "war on terror/drugs" and go in heavy-handed.
These schmucks don't respect anything but force, so use it.
When they eventually decide to go home, you need a policy about whether to detain them or just let them go.
There's no "or" involved. They get detained, they get sentenced, and they get federal prison time. This is a felony--so they lose their guns too.
Sell their firearms or give them to the BLM. No more of this "Hurr, them Federal guys can't tell me whattado!" crap.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 21:15:36
2016/01/04 21:30:37
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Well,the gak has hit the fan,now. President Lin, er Obama is calling on the northern states to provide 75,000 volunteers to help protect federal property.
Kilkrazy wrote: The Bundy guys didn't use force to occupy the building, which was empty. They say they are prepared to use force to defend themselves if attacked while in it, but at the moment they are no threat to anyone.
Whether the building was empty or not, it was likely locked up. In order to have gotten in--they would have needed to use force. Additionally, them claiming that they are "prepared to use force to defend themselves if attacked or threatened with forcible removal" is using force to occupy the building.
As Relapse and Ouze both said, the best way to tackle this situation is to keep a light perimeter to stop the Bundys sloping off or receiving supplies from supporters, stop bystanders from getting into trouble by approaching, do nothing, and wait for the protestors to get fed up and decide to go home. Send in a negotiator once a day to check on progress of the Bundys' morale.
Yeah, no. The best way to tackle this situation is to fire up one of those wonderful APCs that a large number of police organizations got from DHS as part of the "war on terror/drugs" and go in heavy-handed.
These schmucks don't respect anything but force, so use it.
When they eventually decide to go home, you need a policy about whether to detain them or just let them go.
There's no "or" involved. They get detained, they get sentenced, and they get federal prison time. This is a felony--so they lose their guns too.
Sell their firearms or give them to the BLM. No more of this "Hurr, them Federal guys can't tell me whattado!" crap.
Its scary when Kanluwen and I are on the same page.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 21:31:49
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/01/04 21:36:51
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/01/04 21:50:38
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Kilkrazy wrote: The Bundy guys didn't use force to occupy the building, which was empty. They say they are prepared to use force to defend themselves if attacked while in it, but at the moment they are no threat to anyone.
Whether the building was empty or not, it was likely locked up. In order to have gotten in--they would have needed to use force. Additionally, them claiming that they are "prepared to use force to defend themselves if attacked or threatened with forcible removal" is using force to occupy the building.
...
Force in the legal context of robbery and terrorism is violently attacking people, not breaking a lock.
Kilkrazy wrote: The Bundy guys didn't use force to occupy the building, which was empty. They say they are prepared to use force to defend themselves if attacked while in it, but at the moment they are no threat to anyone.
Whether the building was empty or not, it was likely locked up. In order to have gotten in--they would have needed to use force. Additionally, them claiming that they are "prepared to use force to defend themselves if attacked or threatened with forcible removal" is using force to occupy the building.
Force in the legal context of robbery and terrorism is violently attacking people, not breaking a lock.
Actually, "forced entry" is considered part of the category of unlawful violence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 22:04:36
2016/01/04 22:09:38
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
You like people who have your politics and you make allowances for these things (ie, OWS), and you want people whose politics you hate to be arrested (ie, not-OWS).
For the record. Both the Oregon group and OWS should be arrested and charged accordingly.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2016/01/04 22:14:08
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
It may seem obvious to me, but to me he was saying he believes that you are willing to make allowances for people you agree with whilst not giving the same to ones you don't.
Then again I could be totally wrong.
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2016/01/04 22:24:58
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
If you can't see the difference between a nonviolent protest doing passive resistance and a group of extremists declaring war on the US and seizing a government facility, while armed and threatening violence, there is really nothing I can say to you bro.
You go on being you.
Also, I don't recall ever advocating anyone who broke laws during OWS be given a free pass.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 22:28:18
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2016/01/04 22:27:42
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Ouze wrote: If you can't see the difference between a nonviolent protest doing passive resistance and a group of extremists declaring war on the US and seizing a government facility, while armed and threatening violence, there is really nothing I can say to you bro.
You go on being you.
You too mang.
You just supported my argument.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 22:28:12
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2016/01/04 22:36:52
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Ouze wrote: If you can't see the difference between a nonviolent protest doing passive resistance and a group of extremists declaring war on the US and seizing a government facility, while armed and threatening violence, there is really nothing I can say to you bro.
You go on being you.
Also, I don't recall ever advocating anyone who broke laws during OWS be given a free pass.
And there were thousands of arrests.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2016/01/04 22:39:23
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Well,the gak has hit the fan,now. President Lin, er Obama is calling on the northern states to provide 75,000 volunteers to help protect federal property.
First, McDowell, bold and gay, set forth the shortest way,
By Manassas in the pleasant summer weather,
But unfortunately ran on a Stonewall, foolish man,
And had a "rocky journey" altogether;
And he found it rather hard to ride o'er Beauregard,
And Johnston proved a deuce of a bother,
And 'twas clear beyond a doubt that he didn't like the route,
And a second time would have to try another.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrDwhitey wrote: It may seem obvious to me, but to me he was saying he believes that you are willing to make allowances for people you agree with whilst not giving the same to ones you don't.
It's hardly unknown for one man's terrorist to be another's freedom fighter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 22:45:18
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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