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2016/01/21 14:21:30
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Col., I'm glad you seem to have found a militia that embodies good motives. The people in the one I knew here were mostly jackasses planning on stealing people's supplies in the event of disaster.
2016/01/21 14:58:21
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Those are an exception. I think with digging, you would find more with good intentions than with bad. That and those types are exactly the kind of thing amongst others these militias are for. The bad ones just get all the publicity because they make the news doing and saying stupid stuff. The good ones stay low and have no motive or reason to make the news. Why advertise? The community knows they are there and no one else needs to. Some that I know of grew out of CERT team members finding others and having more common interests and concerns aside from the official CERT mission. Especially in larger isolated neighborhoods, mine(neighborhood) for example which is 3000 homes, encompasses almost 22 square miles and 20 minutes from the closest grocery store and farther from the nearest police station and even farther from nearest hospital. Our CERT unit would be taxed out in a major emergency and we are very low on the county priority list for everything(except our taxes, they love that) thus the need for security in a situation requiring it is there as we are located along two major highways between two large population centers. This kind of situation is what the majority of US militias actually are, most simply do not call themselves militias because of the connotation it gives because of asshats like the Bundys.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
2016/01/21 17:08:48
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Col. Dash wrote: Again the government is not doing anything here because it has no need to. After the disasters of the earlier siege situations where many innocent people were killed, Ruby Ridge and Waco being the two obvious ones, the FBI redid their playbook. In this situation when there is no need to assault the building and there are no unwilling hostages to rescue they will not attack. They will sit back at a distance in a nonaggressive stance to avoid the view that it is a siege in order to keep from escalading the situation. These guys are causing no real harm and are not threatening or in a position to threaten anyone. - It is still unknown whether the guys who followed the officers home are actually from this group or are part of some of the other groups outside the wire not affiliated with them.
-Don't worry about the gov workers, whatever their job was inside the building, it isn't very hard for gov office types to pick up and move to another console.
-Nothing has been done to address the false charges that BLM made against the Hammonds. If anything the militia thing has actually detracted away from the injustice done to them by the uber corrupt BLM. You don't think they are corrupt and underhanded. "Hey the farmers wont sell, Bob, go close the dam, we will flood them out and buy it at half price."(Yes that happened as part of this for that exact reason.)
-Not all militias are bad or dumb rednecks. Some have good causes, but most of those are not represented at this location. Not all militias are anti-government, some are simply local defense for major disaster prep and so forth. But If you believe the government has the best of intentions for you, you need to get out more. Ask our allied indian tribes after our initial invasion of the continent how that worked out.
-Town is 50 50 on the whole thing. Local businesses are having a booming time for a normally small community out in BFE.
Question, what did the BLM do against them?
edit: And how are they "über corrupt"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/21 17:12:46
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2016/01/21 17:21:14
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Didn't you hear? They enforced the laws of the land as empowered by legislation passed by congress made up of elected officials to enact said legislation by the people of the United States of America!
edit: And how are they "über corrupt"?
Only a corrupt government owns land duly acquired in trade, treaty, and war and doesn't give it to the State legislatures who will promptly sell it out for condos, minimalls, and strip mining. It's not like protecting the environment can ever serve a legitimate purpose! It's just a bunch of bleeding heart liberals choking the life out of the fair capitalists... Who benefit overwhelmingly from cheap government provided services, subsidies, and tax breaks...
You know. I'm starting to think these guys might be living in some fantasy completely devoid of any resemblance to the real world...
Col. Dash wrote: Again the government is not doing anything here because it has no need to. After the disasters of the earlier siege situations where many innocent people were killed, Ruby Ridge and Waco being the two obvious ones, the FBI redid their playbook. In this situation when there is no need to assault the building and there are no unwilling hostages to rescue they will not attack. They will sit back at a distance in a nonaggressive stance to avoid the view that it is a siege in order to keep from escalading the situation. These guys are causing no real harm and are not threatening or in a position to threaten anyone.
- It is still unknown whether the guys who followed the officers home are actually from this group or are part of some of the other groups outside the wire not affiliated with them.
-Don't worry about the gov workers, whatever their job was inside the building, it isn't very hard for gov office types to pick up and move to another console.
-Nothing has been done to address the false charges that BLM made against the Hammonds. If anything the militia thing has actually detracted away from the injustice done to them by the uber corrupt BLM. You don't think they are corrupt and underhanded. "Hey the farmers wont sell, Bob, go close the dam, we will flood them out and buy it at half price."(Yes that happened as part of this for that exact reason.)
-Not all militias are bad or dumb rednecks. Some have good causes, but most of those are not represented at this location. Not all militias are anti-government, some are simply local defense for major disaster prep and so forth. But If you believe the government has the best of intentions for you, you need to get out more. Ask our allied indian tribes after our initial invasion of the continent how that worked out.
-Town is 50 50 on the whole thing. Local businesses are having a booming time for a normally small community out in BFE.
Question, what did the BLM do against them?
edit: And how are they "über corrupt"?
They dared to prosecute men who set fire to public land to cover up poaching and in the process almost killing some people.
They dared to prosecute men who set fire to public land to cover up poaching and in the process almost killing some people.
Arsonists who I might add are lucky as hell (or maybe the locals just play favorites) that this is what they're going to prison for. Not attempted murder, as happened in 1994, and 1997, Child Abuse, or all the other fires the BLM knows they've set over the past 20 years.
CptJake wrote: You claim pretty clearly if these were Muslims there would be a public outcry.
Well, in all honesty, do you think guys like Trump wouldn't be up there stirring the pot? I might draw your attention to his actions when an unarmed Muslim woman in a hijab turned up at one of his rallies and just stood there.
Imagine armed Muslims holding a Federal building. He'd be calling for a Crusade then and there.
Arsonists who I might add are lucky as hell (or maybe the locals just play favorites) that this is what they're going to prison for. Not attempted murder, as happened in 1994, and 1997, Child Abuse, or all the other fires the BLM knows they've set over the past 20 years.
Small matter of proof, but that's never stopped your lynchmob before, has it hats?
The issue was that the courts tried them, handed down a sentence, which was served, and then suddenly it was decided that they had not served enough time and had to go back to jail. I'm sure you'd be ranting and raring if you paid your parking fine and then got a note a month later that you now had to report to jail to do five to ten.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/21 21:06:51
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2016/01/21 21:15:20
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
BaronIveagh wrote: Small matter of proof, but that's never stopped your lynchmob before, has it hats?
All other potential charges have evidence and witnesses, much of which was used against the Hammonds' trial when they tried to use their character as a defense (more than enough to bring charges at the least), which is why I expressed amazement a few pages ago that two counts of Arson is all they've ever been charged with. Somebody somewhere, was being very understanding/sympathetic with this family. The Hammonds seem to have delighted over the years in taunting the BLM with fires. Witnesses at their trial for the two fires they were convicted of even brought up that the Hammonds regularly started fires on and near the refuge during lightning storms.
The issue was that the courts tried them, handed down a sentence, which was served, and then suddenly it was decided that they had not served enough time and had to go back to jail.
And as I said pages ago; Another example of people being screwed over by mandatory minimums (though I think 5 years for arson is fair) and another reason why we should do away with them.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/21 21:17:21
CptJake wrote: You claim pretty clearly if these were Muslims there would be a public outcry.
Well, in all honesty, do you think guys like Trump wouldn't be up there stirring the pot? I might draw your attention to his actions when an unarmed Muslim woman in a hijab turned up at one of his rallies and just stood there.
Imagine armed Muslims holding a Federal building. He'd be calling for a Crusade then and there.
Arsonists who I might add are lucky as hell (or maybe the locals just play favorites) that this is what they're going to prison for. Not attempted murder, as happened in 1994, and 1997, Child Abuse, or all the other fires the BLM knows they've set over the past 20 years.
Small matter of proof, but that's never stopped your lynchmob before, has it hats?
The issue was that the courts tried them, handed down a sentence, which was served, and then suddenly it was decided that they had not served enough time and had to go back to jail. I'm sure you'd be ranting and raring if you paid your parking fine and then got a note a month later that you now had to report to jail to do five to ten.
The issue is that the courts handed down an illegal sentence and a higher court had to come in and tell them they messed up. Also, your parking fine/jail time analogy does not fit.
2016/01/21 21:34:19
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
BaronIveagh wrote: Small matter of proof, but that's never stopped your lynchmob before, has it hats?
The issue was that the courts tried them, handed down a sentence, which was served, and then suddenly it was decided that they had not served enough time and had to go back to jail. I'm sure you'd be ranting and raring if you paid your parking fine and then got a note a month later that you now had to report to jail to do five to ten.
It's actually kind of a catch-22 as the case both showcases why mandatory minimums are unfair, and why they were put into law in the first place XD
The original sentence of a few months for two arsons, one to cover up another crime, and both that put the lives of others in immediate risk is a travesty.
But then, convicted persons getting jerked around because the judge handed down a illegal sentence during sentencing and having to go back to prison after already being released is total donkey balls XD
I don't like the Hammonds and I think they got what they deserved but the law doesn't exist so people I don't like get their comeuppance. Unfortunately, I doubt anything good will come from that end of this story because the Refuge occupation will taint everything going into the future (and well... the Hammonds aren't very likable and it's easy to dismiss bad things when they happen to people who don't play well in Prime Time news).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/21 21:38:36
What did BLM do? For starters they have been acquiring land now for several decades in this area. Doesnt sound bad until you notice the tactics they use. There are several posts on this thread that link abuses by BLM, you can find them, I am not going to go through all this and hunt it down.
Best one off hand was they tried to buy rancher land near the park from four or five ranchers who wouldn't sell so they closed up a dam down river from the ranchers on land they did own and flooded the ranchers out then purchased the land for pennies on the dollar, then they let the water out. If thats not screwed up to you, you have something wrong with you. They have also taken land down the middle of people's property and not permitted them to travel through it to get to their homes or fields.
Secondly it was not arson. It was a backfire, something commonly used by ranchers in these areas to burn off the fuel in front of a wildfire. They did not inform a distant fire department because they were in a hurry to defend their own home. And it worked. Its not like it was out of control or burned a lot of land. If anything the fire department should be thanking them and its good for the environment anyway.
So yes, while these militia guys are definately in the wrong, BLM is far worse and steal land from people all the time for whatever their end goal is. Oh and a 1975 report stated quite clearly that the environment that was privately owned had far better ecosystems than government land that was managed so saving the environment is not one of the goals.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
2016/01/21 23:20:56
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Col. Dash wrote: What did BLM do? For starters they have been acquiring land now for several decades in this area. Doesnt sound bad until you notice the tactics they use. There are several posts on this thread that link abuses by BLM, you can find them, I am not going to go through all this and hunt it down.
Best one off hand was they tried to buy rancher land near the park from four or five ranchers who wouldn't sell so they closed up a dam down river from the ranchers on land they did own and flooded the ranchers out then purchased the land for pennies on the dollar, then they let the water out. If thats not screwed up to you, you have something wrong with you. They have also taken land down the middle of people's property and not permitted them to travel through it to get to their homes or fields.
Secondly it was not arson. It was a backfire, something commonly used by ranchers in these areas to burn off the fuel in front of a wildfire. They did not inform a distant fire department because they were in a hurry to defend their own home. And it worked. Its not like it was out of control or burned a lot of land. If anything the fire department should be thanking them and its good for the environment anyway.
So yes, while these militia guys are definately in the wrong, BLM is far worse and steal land from people all the time for whatever their end goal is. Oh and a 1975 report stated quite clearly that the environment that was privately owned had far better ecosystems than government land that was managed so saving the environment is not one of the goals.
Brave freedom fighters are often misunderstood in their time, but I'm sure history will redeem these guys.
Edit:
And maybe it's just the former firefighter side of me talking, but anybody who starts fires and knowingly endangers firefighters like that is someone on the same level as cop killers IMO.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/22 00:00:27
2016/01/22 00:44:48
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
d-usa wrote: And maybe it's just the former firefighter side of me talking, but anybody who starts fires and knowingly endangers firefighters like that is someone on the same level as cop killers IMO.
Sounds like you hate America, comrade.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2016/01/22 00:54:28
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
d-usa wrote: And maybe it's just the former firefighter side of me talking, but anybody who starts fires and knowingly endangers firefighters like that is someone on the same level as cop killers IMO.
Because that is how it has been done out there for over a century now to fight fire even up until modern times. BLM is taking exception with this this time because they want the last of the hold outs land. But it has been done on private land for years. And if you guys are so happy with the feds holding massive tracts of land, why are you ok with them taking even more? Do you not believe in private property?
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
2016/01/22 01:52:26
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Col. Dash wrote: Because that is how it has been done out there for over a century now to fight fire even up until modern times.
It's modern practice to set fires during red flag warnings/burn bans? Because that's what they did.
Col. Dash wrote: But it has been done on private land for years.
This is irrelevant to the fact that they burned 139 acres of public property, endangering several lives.
Col. Dash wrote: And if you guys are so happy with the feds holding massive tracts of land, why are you ok with them taking even more? Do you not believe in private property?
... wut?
Do you know what all of these "defenses" of these guys always feel like to me? That scene in Forrest Gump, where Wesley "apologizes" for slapping Jenny.
I mean, there are strawmen, and then that, you know?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/22 01:53:25
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Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2016/01/22 02:30:04
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Col. Dash wrote: Because that is how it has been done out there for over a century now to fight fire even up until modern times. BLM is taking exception with this this time because they want the last of the hold outs land.
Lighting fires to burn brush is a common practice and is still done in many parts of the world. However, they live in the United States where there are these things called laws about what you are allowed to do. To light fires, you need to pay a small fee to your local office for a permit and you need to notify them that you are going to burn land before you do so. They did neither of those things and burned land while they explicitly were told not to burn land, putting several people's lives at risk.
To play devil's advocate, the question of rights to public land have been a hot topic throughout history all the way back to documents such as the Magna Carta and the Charter of the Forest. People have been debating over what rights to public land should people have for a long time and it is complicated an nuanced issue that I feel could be readdressed today to meet the needs of modern farming practices and requirements for environmental protection. A balance has to be struck between requirements for grazing lands, irrigation, and not completely destroying the environment under herds of animals.
These people squatting in the cabin though are crazy and should be put away somewhere so that people can actually discuss this without looking like loons.
And if you guys are so happy with the feds holding massive tracts of land, why are you ok with them taking even more? Do you not believe in private property?
Excellent! My obligatory weekly attack on Communism. If I go to long without someone blaming Communism for all their problems, I begin to get the shakes. I begin to wonder if we lost our edge.
Still waiting for Godot.
2016/01/22 02:37:15
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Actually they had a wildfire approaching their home. They didnt have time to apply for a permit and if burning a quick backfire to stop the main one to protect your house is required then yes anyone would do this.
Not everywhere requires you to have a permit besides. Here in the east we burn yard scraps and have bonfires quite often.
I am not blaming communism. The government owns more of the west than the people do. That is wrong. And they are trying to acquire more despite environmental reports saying the private ranchland is better managed.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
2016/01/22 02:47:40
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
They were under a burn ban on a high fire danger day and knowingly risked the lives of firefighters. There is really no good reason to defend those guys.
2016/01/22 03:38:39
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Col. Dash wrote: Actually they had a wildfire approaching their home. They didnt have time to apply for a permit and if burning a quick backfire to stop the main one to protect your house is required then yes anyone would do this.
You don't need to apply for a permit each time, you apply for it once and then its yours. As far as I could tell from my research into the region's laws, you have to call the office and tell the secretary that you are going to be burning land, which they definitely had time to do. They also ignored a warning put out not to burn land because there were already firefighters containing the fire. Their fire spread out of control and forced the firefighters to abandon their positions and flee for their lives.
While there are arguments that people should have more rights to public land, these people put lives in danger with their actions.
Still waiting for Godot.
2016/01/22 03:48:54
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
"In her first lengthy public comments on the armed occupation of a wildlife refuge in Oregon, Governor Kate Brown said Wednesday that the federal government had urged state officials to "limit" their public comments about the standoff.
"To avoid escalating the situation, I have complied," Brown said at the end of a roughly four-minute speech to introduce her 2016 policy agenda. "I would not want to say anything to compromise their efforts to resolve the situation."
But the situation in Burns, a town close to the refuge, is "absolutely intolerable," she said.
"The very fabric of this community is being ripped apart," Brown said, adding that she had "conveyed these very grave concerns directly" to the Department of Justice and the White House.
"Federal authorities must move quickly to end the occupation and hold all of the wrongdoers accountable," she said.
Brown also plans to seek funding during next month's legislative session to "offset" the cost of the response to the occupiers — about $100,000 per week, she said.
Brown has weighed in on the armed protest once before on Jan. 7, with a brief statement that called on the group to "decamp immediately."
So far, they have not.
The occupiers took over a federal building at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge on Jan. 2 with a stated goal of reversing the prison sentences of two men who were convicted of committing arson on federal land.
Two days later, the FBI announced that it was working with local and state officials to "bring a peaceful resolution to the situation" at the refuge.
"Due to safety considerations," the agency said in a Twitter post, "we will not be releasing any specifics with regard to the law enforcement response."
The Harney County sheriff has accused the protesters of intimidating and harassing local residents and federal employees, and two men were arrested last week for stealing a U.S. Fish and Wildlife vehicle and possessing a firearm as a felon.
At a Tuesday community meeting, with protest leader Ammon Bundy in attendance, residents tussled over the occupation. At one point, the crowd broke into applause and chanted for the group to go home.
But this comment became another applause line, NBC affiliate KTVZ reported: "Until changes come about, I'd rather see the Bundy's stay here."
