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 Ustrello wrote:
We literally have 4 witnesses, 2 are giving one story, one isn't talking and one is giving a radically different story than everyone else. I am pretty sure we can see the outlier here

No, we don't. You're missing the point. We have not heard anything from three of them. We have two guys that say they know them saying that they said that....




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 Ustrello wrote:
Also it is fairly ironic you are calling the majority testimony hearsay when the kids is literally hearsay also

How so? She was in the car, she was the only one not arrested, and she gave an interview.


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 Ustrello wrote:

Baron I get it you dislike the federal government, but seriously you are just kidding yourself right now.

No, unlike you guys, I'm actually reading the articles. I just saw in the lot of your posts a sudden burst of cherry picking to fit a narrative that you want to hear.

Now, when we have testimony from someone else who was actually present, then we can have a discussion about who's lying. ATM we don't actually have that.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
We literally have 4 witnesses, 2 are giving one story, one isn't talking and one is giving a radically different story than everyone else. I am pretty sure we can see the outlier here

No, we don't. You're missing the point. We have not heard anything from three of them. We have two guys that say they know them saying that they said that....




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 Ustrello wrote:
Also it is fairly ironic you are calling the majority testimony hearsay when the kids is literally hearsay also

How so? She was in the car, she was the only one not arrested, and she gave an interview.

Can you substantiate her testimony? Or is it just rumor? I'll save you the time and tell you it is rumor.

Everyone should just consider if it's worth their time to try and argue with someone who is seriously considering a reality where the FBI kills people in the street SS style as the truth.

 Ustrello wrote:

Can you substantiate her testimony? Or is it just rumor?

You clearly do not understand what constitutes either rumor or hearsay.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

Can you substantiate her testimony? Or is it just rumor?

You clearly do not understand what constitutes either rumor or hearsay.

A currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth. Then again as D-usa said you actually believe that the waffen FBI are going around and executing people in the streets so this really isn't worth my time.

 d-usa wrote:
Everyone should just consider if it's worth their time to try and argue with someone who is seriously considering a reality where the FBI kills people in the street SS style as the truth.

Nice strawman. but no.

What I am arguing is that, rather than favor the eyewitness testimony of an actual witness, we're favoring 2nd and 3rd hand accounts, because they fit our preconceived notions better. We have no idea who actually shot him. I highly doubt the FBI would have, but a state trooper or local officer manning a roadblock? Oh yes.


But, as usual any effort to actually examine what's going on by examining witness accounts and evidence will be smothered with BS and self righteous hyperbole.

Both the accounts we've been given on how he died thus far strike me as fantastical. Either he was heartless gunned down by the man, or he fought to his last breath and was gunned down by the man.

Both versions seem like pandering to the notions of those telling it to me. I want confirmation. Video. An incident report (FBI does those right?). Crime scene photos. What we've been given so far feels like it belongs in a Hollywood movie (and lets face it, probably will be).

 LordofHats wrote:
Both the accounts we've been given on how he died thus far strike me as fantastical. Either he was heartless gunned down by the man, or he fought to his last breath and was gunned down by the man.

Both versions seem like pandering to the notions of those telling it to me. I want confirmation. Video. An incident report (FBI does those right?). Crime scene photos. What we've been given so far feels like it belongs in a Hollywood movie (and lets face it, probably will be).

Agreed. So far though, the FBI has been singularly lacking in it's forthcomingness with anything about the case, even to confirm the identity of the deceased. . I'd like to get a look at the corners report and a photo of the car. Those would almost be as good as a video. The 18 year old says that he was shot three more times on the ground. The corners report would show if that was the case.

One should keep in mind that this group has a staggering credibility problem with almost every major member having been outed for something, either lying about military service, federal loans/assistance, etc, and have pretty much every incentive to give a fairy-tale version of events, and that the man killed is on video telling people he's going to use force and violence to resist arrest if anyone tried to take him into custody and wrote a book about killing local officials and going to war against the federal government, while the authorities are still having to deal with people hunkered down at the refuge and probably want to deal with that before doing the full expose on the Finicum shooting.

I wouldn't expect any video or anything really about the shooting until the wildlife refuge has been cleared, but with a background like this dude had, it's not exactly hard to see how he'd end up dead like he did.

Hopefully everything will be over soon with no further casualties, but either way, it's difficult to see this as any sort of conspiracy or believe rumors of an execution style slaying of Finicum.

 d-usa wrote:
who is seriously considering a reality where the FBI kills people in the street SS style as the truth.

BTW: If you think that's never happened, remember that the FBI was deeply involved in the assassination of Fred Hampton.

 Vaktathi wrote:
One should keep in mind that this group has a staggering credibility problem with almost every major member having been outed for something, either lying about military service, federal loans/assistance, etc, and have pretty much every incentive to give a fairy-tale version of events, and that the man killed is on video telling people he's going to use force and violence to resist arrest if anyone tried to take him into custody and wrote a book about killing local officials and going to war against the federal government, while the authorities are still having to deal with people hunkered down at the refuge and probably want to deal with that before doing the full expose on the Finicum shooting.

I wouldn't expect any video or anything really about the shooting until the wildlife refuge has been cleared, but with a background like this dude had, it's not exactly hard to see how he'd end up dead like he did.

Hopefully everything will be over soon with no further casualties, but either way, it's difficult to see this as any sort of conspiracy or believe rumors of an execution style slaying of Finicum.

This is why I assume they've been mum so far (that and wanting to get their ducks in a row). Anything they say will end up being used by these guys, no matter what, so why add fuel to the fire?

I just read up on that and boy, that was one of the most disgusting things I've seen in awhile.*

*The Hampton thing

 LordofHats wrote:

This is why I assume they've been mum so far (that and wanting to get their ducks in a row). Anything they say will end up being used by these guys, no matter what, so why add fuel to the fire?

The problem is that we have a man on the slab, and in lieu of facts, we have a lot of stories flying around. To say it has the potential to backfire is an understatement.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
*The Hampton thing

Yeah, it's rather rough. It's one of the things I think of when someone tells me that "the government/police/military would never do X.' or mocks someone for suggesting that it might happen, because there's a whole long, sordid history of exceptions where they did do X.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I just read up on that and boy, that was one of the most disgusting things I've seen in awhile.*

*The Hampton thing

That's honestly part of the reason why the FBI might not be saying anything. The legacy of the Hampton killing isn't that he was killed, it's that his death is continually (and viciously) spun by pretty much everyone who talks and researches it. I've never seen an unbiased account of the death of Hampton. Either he was a radical guy murdered in the dead of night by law enforcement in bed, or he was a radical guy killed in a shoot out with the police. The worst part being that what little evidence remains of the incident supports both versions of the story.

I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happened here, and most certainly anyone who dies in this story is quickly going to cease being a person and more of a truthism.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
who is seriously considering a reality where the FBI kills people in the street SS style as the truth.

BTW: If you think that's never happened, remember that the FBI was deeply involved in the assassination of Fred Hampton.

That was nearly 50 years ago, in a time when they could be nearly certain that no one would record what happened. In this case virtually every single person at the scene had a cell phone that could have been recording what happened, and you'd have to presume that either the state troopers assassinated a man in cold blood and the FBI covered it up, or the FBI assassinated a man in cold blood and covered it up despite neither organization being very likely to cover for each other.

Apparently this story is easier to believe than a guy who said repeatedly, on video, that he wouldn't be taken alive being a man of his word in the end.

 d-usa wrote:
Everyone should just consider if it's worth their time to try and argue with someone who is seriously considering a reality where the FBI kills people in the street SS style as the truth.

And that same organization not also shooting Ammon Bundy, or finishing the wounded Ryan Bundy, or shooting anyone else arrested or still at the compound. I agree that following this thread only works id you're the sort of person who calls federal agents fedcoats, believe in chemtrails, or uses the word "sheeple" non-ironically and without being followed by an XKCD comic.

Occam's razor tells me that a cop shooting a man kneeling with his hands in the air in front of literally dozens of witnesses with only one speaking up almost certainly didn't happen.

Well you know what they say. Extraordinary claims. Extraordinary evidence so on and so forth.

I'm surprised that they managed to make the other patriots turn so quickly to help them cover up the truth. Must have their children locked up in Gitmo already.

 d-usa wrote:
I'm surprised that they managed to make the other patriots turn so quickly to help them cover up the truth. Must have their children locked up in Gitmo already.

well they have taken away some foster kids over this, but I'm sure for a reduced sentence those guys would sell out their own mothers

Another account of the arrests:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/27/us/oregon-siege-traffic-stop/index.html

But Finicum, with police in hot pursuit, attempted to leave the main road and drove into a snow bank. When he emerged from the vehicle, FBI and state police ordered him to surrender. That's when, authorities say, Finicum reached down toward his waistband where he had a gun.

The SWAT team opened fire. Finicum was killed. Ryan Bundy suffered a light wound on his arm.

The shooting was captured on camera by the SWAT team. FBI and Oregon police officials are discussing possibly releasing the video, in part to counter claims by supporters that Finicum was gunned down while trying to surrender.

I really don't want to be morbid, but if they have the footage, can they at least show it to reporters so they can offer their thoughts on it XD Even I, as someone who thinks these guys are complete jack asses, would like some outside confirmation of the contents.

 Ustrello wrote:
https://news.vice.com/article/come-get-some-miltia-prepares-for-battle-as-feds-surround-oregon-wildlife-refuge

During a livestream from the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge on Wednesday morning, an armed occupier dressed in fatigues is seen holding a rifle. He spoke directly into the camera, seemingly addressing authorities in the aftermath of the arrests and the shooting that occurred on a highway close to the refuge on Tuesday night.

"You want some militiamen? Come get some," the man said, standing in front of what appeared to be a piece of heavy-duty excavating equipment. "It's what you been training for, preparing for.

"Media's been waiting for a bloodbath this whole time we've been here," he added. "Now there's going to be one."

The arrests on Tuesday angered anti-government protesters across the country, said Mike Vanderboegh, a gun-rights activist active in self-proclaimed militia circles.

"It's all I can do to keep people from going and shooting feds right now," he told Reuters.

So we now have them instead of dancing around the subject saying they will kill people and probably go and try and kill more people.

They can mutter about about the feds and FEMA camps all they want to but so long as they can say it under active air con/heating with steaks broiling and frosty ones being passed around Their ideology has a as much substance as the current administrations red lines.

Taking an empty building was the safest thing their posturing allowed.

Outliers and the more radical may be moved to violence but the rest.. they'll just talk.

As best as I can piece together the various news reports, the only actual eye witness who has made any public statement is this Victoria Sharp. She says the dead man was essentially executed. You don't have to believe things people say, especially when they have obvious motives for lying.

Personally my inclination is to disbelieve the Sharp account.

Vinicum was armed, and had made statements that he would use violence to prevent being arrested. It seems likely he would follow through on that and thereby get shot by the police defending themselves. He was already in a situation of evading arrest by dangerous driving.

If the police wanted to kill the gang members, why would they execute a random gang member in front of witnesses and leave the rest of them alive?

The police could easily say several people jumped out of the car shooting, and in the ensuing firefight, everyone was killed including people who weren't armed but got hit by stray bullets in the cross-fire.

Update from the Dildopolis: Welfare Rancher Queen Cliven Bundy has called on the holdouts to disband and leave. 3 of the holdouts have since surrendered and were charged with the rest of the militants.

No word on the status of the 55 gallon drum of lube.

Additionally, word on one of the militia's facebooks is reinforcements are inbound!



It's fun to pretend sometimes, isn't it?

 d-usa wrote:
Redcoats man, can't trust them, can't violently overthrow their reign. What is a militia to do...

It's obvious - get the French to bankroll it for you again.

 Ouze wrote:

That was nearly 50 years ago, in a time when they could be nearly certain that no one would record what happened.

True, but it still happened.

 Ouze wrote:

Occam's razor tells me that a cop shooting a man kneeling with his hands in the air in front of literally dozens of witnesses with only one speaking up almost certainly didn't happen.

I don't think anyone said he was on his knees.

So far we have three stories:

One witness says he wrecked the car, had his hands up, and was shouting at them, and they fired.

One story says that he wrecked the car, and then charged at them, and they fired.

The police claim they have a video showing him try and pull a gun, and they fired, but have, thus far, not shown it to anyone.


So actual proof of anything is thin on the ground at the moment.

Remember that the best cons are mostly truth and one believable lie. When everyone is making different claims, proof is what's required. Thus far we do not have 'dozens of witnesses': we have one. Now, they have it on video, let's see it. That's pretty solid proof. But so far all we have is thier word that they have such a thing. After the last... twenty five police scandals involving shooting unarmed people this year, you might forgive me if I'm a bit leery of simply accepting what I'm told when witnesses seem to be contradicting them.

That story about ex-Navy SEALs parachuting in sounds like someone is already writing a hollywood movie about the whole thing. I wonder if some guys pretended to be Navy Seals and talked to them just for them to make these hilarious posts?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
After the last... twenty five police scandals involving shooting unarmed people this year, you might forgive me if I'm a bit leery of simply accepting what I'm told when witnesses seem to be contradicting them.

How many of those other scandals involved somebody declaring they would rather die than be arrested?

 Witzkatz wrote:
That story about ex-Navy SEALs parachuting in sounds like someone is already writing a hollywood movie about the whole thing. I wonder if some guys pretended to be Navy Seals and talked to them just for them to make these hilarious posts?

Someone has a good imagination

Oh come on, it not a cover story. He was posturing and died sad but true.

If they wanted a cover story it would not be hard to shoot them all and say the anti gov shot at then during a supply run where a attenpted arrest was made and they tried to fight the arrest. Some with out guns where killed sadly in the cross fire.

Remove cell phones and take all into evidence leave it as a open case so they never need to be released the phones and such. Then delete all cloud data.

Why no video because swat vans do not have cams to record. Followed by a report of sadness and sorrys to the familys and done.

If people ask why no bullets where on the swat van simply put we seen them reqch for a gun and fired which started a chain reaction which was out of our control.

P.s. The majourity of people will except it because either apathy or the people were bothering their way of life. Othes will reject but there is so many conspiracy theriest that no one will pay attention, fast forward 6 months no one cares.

Apparently there are videos. It has been reported that the police are considering whether to release them. It would not be allowed in the UK because of our laws about prejudicing the course of justice, but it's allowed in the USA so perhaps they will come out over the weekend.