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I was just thinking: What would happen if Mephistion and Tigurius got into a fight? Here's their armaments.

Tigurius: Generates powers from Biomancy, Divination, Daemonolgy, Pyromancy, Telekenisis, and Telepathy(we'll give him Haemmorage and Misfortune) has force weapon, bolt pistol, 3 wounds, 3+ armour save, Ld 10.

Mephistion: Always knows Sanguine Sword, Plasma Pistol, Transfixing Gaze (Roll 2D6 at the start of each Fight sub-phase in which Mephiston is fighting in a challenge; if the result is greater than or equal to his opponent’s Leadership, Mephiston’s melee attacks will, until the end of the Assault phase, hit on a 2+), can choose 2 more powers from the Sanguinary, Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination and Pyromancy powers(for this fight, we'll give him Blood Boil and Shield of Sangunius), has a force weapon, 3 wounds, 2+ armour save, Ld 10.

Here is what I think happens

Mephistion goes first, casting Sanguine Sword, and wounds Tigurius.

Tigurius casts Misfortune, but Mephistion is not wounded

Mephistion casts Blood Boil, Tigruius fails both toughness tests, and is slain.

Mephistion takes Tigurius's body and leaves the battlefield, leaving the Ultramarines in the market for a new Chief Librarian.

So, what do you think happens if Mephistion and Tigurius get into a fight?

I want to see what Dakka thinks.

You just said what would happen.

Fluffwise (and stat/rule wise), Mephiston would convincingly beat Tigerius in hand to hand combat. How you described it would likely be how it would happen.

Tigerius is by no means weak, he is pretty strong but is more of a supporting character. The fluff matches the tabletop for him in that he seems to do a lot more to support his battlebrothers than Mephiston who mainly powers up himself and acts as a beatstick. Both completely different characters, strong in their own ways. Mephiston is very clearly the stronger melee fighter though. Plus I am a tad biased towards him since I am a huge Blood Angels fan.

Don't know but I'd cheer Mephy over the mary sue smurf.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

Mephistion goes first, casting Sanguine Sword, and wounds Tigurius.

It's more like...Mephiston goes first, casts Sanguine Sword and insta-kills Tigurius before Tiggy even knew what happened.


No contest. Tigurius isn't geared for CC. He is more of a support unit. Mephiston, on the other hand, is a CC beast who uses his Psychic powers to support his CC abilities.

 jy2 wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

Mephistion goes first, casting Sanguine Sword, and wounds Tigurius.

It's more like...Mephiston goes first, casts Sanguine Sword and insta-kills Tigurius before Tiggy even knew what happened.


No contest. Tigurius isn't geared for CC. He is more of a support unit. Mephiston, on the other hand, is a CC beast who uses his Psychic powers to support his CC abilities.

There's nothing about Instant Death on the Sanguine Sword power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, what happens after Mephistion kills Tigurius? What happens to the Ultramarines? What does Mephistion do with Tigurius's body?

Nah, thats not what would happen. Ezekiel would show up and Mind Worm both of them, leaving them with the mental capacity of 2-year-olds.

Sanguine Sword is Instant Death because it is Str 10 and Tiggy is only T4. Meph denies better than Tiggy due to Adamantium Will. Meph is faster with I5, and it is even worse if he charges. There is a 25% chance that he will be hitting on 2s in combat With Transcoding Gaze.

In short, Meph will wreck Tiggy in combat. Given that Tiggy isn't meant to be a toe-to-toe combatant, this isn't a surprise.

Tigirius would win because him and an entire unit are invisible and just waffle crush mephiston with tactical prowess over bloodlust

You're like "would mephiston beat tigirius if we gear everything about the scenario to play to mephistons strengths"

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Sanguine Sword is Instant Death because it is Str 10 and Tiggy is only T4. Meph denies better than Tiggy due to Adamantium Will. Meph is faster with I5, and it is even worse if he charges. There is a 25% chance that he will be hitting on 2s in combat With Transcoding Gaze.

In short, Meph will wreck Tiggy in combat. Given that Tiggy isn't meant to be a toe-to-toe combatant, this isn't a surprise.

That.


Or Mephiston can cast Force to Insta-kill Tiggy as well.

 jy2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Sanguine Sword is Instant Death because it is Str 10 and Tiggy is only T4. Meph denies better than Tiggy due to Adamantium Will. Meph is faster with I5, and it is even worse if he charges. There is a 25% chance that he will be hitting on 2s in combat With Transcoding Gaze.

In short, Meph will wreck Tiggy in combat. Given that Tiggy isn't meant to be a toe-to-toe combatant, this isn't a surprise.

That.


Or Mephiston can cast Force to Insta-kill Tiggy as well.

Why would he cast Force when all that does is give himself a Str5 AP3 ID weapon when he can use the same number of Warp Charges and get a Str10 AP3 weapon that is effectively ID against T5 and below?

Fluffwise, I think its an even match. Tigurius is the stronger psyker, but Mephiston is also a very strong psyker and much better in melee. The question is can Mephiston weather Tigurus's psychic assault long enough to get into melee. If yes, than Mephiston wins.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Sanguine Sword is Instant Death because it is Str 10 and Tiggy is only T4. Meph denies better than Tiggy due to Adamantium Will. Meph is faster with I5, and it is even worse if he charges. There is a 25% chance that he will be hitting on 2s in combat With Transcoding Gaze.

In short, Meph will wreck Tiggy in combat. Given that Tiggy isn't meant to be a toe-to-toe combatant, this isn't a surprise.

That.


Or Mephiston can cast Force to Insta-kill Tiggy as well.

Why would he cast Force when all that does is give himself a Str5 AP3 ID weapon when he can use the same number of Warp Charges and get a Str10 AP3 weapon that is effectively ID against T5 and below?

As backup in case he fails to cast Sanguine Sword or it gets denied.

In game - almost certainly Mephiston wins.
In a straight arse-kicking-match, he is by some margin the most dangerous of the 6 chief librarians we have at the moment.

(Ezekiel, Mephiston, Njal, Tigurius, Lok, Ahriman)

Tigurius is probably the most potent loyalist psyker in terms of raw psychic potential, but he's primarily a prescient and a telepath - hence why in-game he's not massively more powerful in a fight than a 'normal' librarian.

Lok and Ezekiel both have artificer plate, which is going to be rather more of an issue (does Sanguine Sword give you AP2?) and Njal can have terminator plate.

Ahriman is the most powerful in terms of classic 'wizard throws fireball' power, but that's arguably the least effective use of psykers, and unfortunately the tzeench discipline isn't great. If you've got the warp charge, throwing a volley of bolts of change should still ventilate any of the others pretty efficiently, though.

 jy2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Sanguine Sword is Instant Death because it is Str 10 and Tiggy is only T4. Meph denies better than Tiggy due to Adamantium Will. Meph is faster with I5, and it is even worse if he charges. There is a 25% chance that he will be hitting on 2s in combat With Transcoding Gaze.

In short, Meph will wreck Tiggy in combat. Given that Tiggy isn't meant to be a toe-to-toe combatant, this isn't a surprise.

That.


Or Mephiston can cast Force to Insta-kill Tiggy as well.

Why would he cast Force when all that does is give himself a Str5 AP3 ID weapon when he can use the same number of Warp Charges and get a Str10 AP3 weapon that is effectively ID against T5 and below?

As backup in case he fails to cast Sanguine Sword or it gets denied.

Its unlikely that any powers get denied just using game rules in this instance. Mephiston can just throw all his dice at the power and its very very unlikely that he fails and then gets denied.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Sanguine Sword is Instant Death because it is Str 10 and Tiggy is only T4. Meph denies better than Tiggy due to Adamantium Will. Meph is faster with I5, and it is even worse if he charges. There is a 25% chance that he will be hitting on 2s in combat With Transcoding Gaze.

In short, Meph will wreck Tiggy in combat. Given that Tiggy isn't meant to be a toe-to-toe combatant, this isn't a surprise.

That.


Or Mephiston can cast Force to Insta-kill Tiggy as well.

Why would he cast Force when all that does is give himself a Str5 AP3 ID weapon when he can use the same number of Warp Charges and get a Str10 AP3 weapon that is effectively ID against T5 and below?

As backup in case he fails to cast Sanguine Sword or it gets denied.

Its unlikely that any powers get denied just using game rules in this instance. Mephiston can just throw all his dice at the power and its very very unlikely that he fails and then gets denied.

I agree with this.

The first one to cast psy shreik or summon daemons (Tiggy)?

So, what happens to the Ultramarines after Mephistion leaves the battlefield with Tigurius's body?
Who's the next chief librarian?

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
So, what happens to the Ultramarines after Mephistion leaves the battlefield with Tigurius's body?
Who's the next chief librarian?

The Smurfs come to kick the Blood Angels arse

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
So, what happens to the Ultramarines after Mephistion leaves the battlefield with Tigurius's body?
Who's the next chief librarian?

The Smurfs come to kick the Blood Angels arse

And so the joint operations fighting the Tyranids end.

(Link for reading not posting)

To paraphrase Stan Lee...

"Stop asking these 'who would win' questions! Whoever the author wants to win will find a way. If Spider Man faces the Hulk and it's a Spidey comic, he's gonna win!"

If it's an Ultramarine title Tigurius wins. If it's a Blood Angel title Mephiston wins. If you're the underdog, winning just makes you that much more epic. If you're kicking Papa Smurf no one is impressed.

On the tabletop you've matched a melee monster against a bog-standard hero. Only a moron (or absolute crappe die rolling) could make Mephiston lose. Only a buffoon would expect any other outcome.

For the record, Smurfs are hardly Mary Sues. They are the poster children Space Marines, but they do nothing better than any other chapter. If you want Mary Sue you have to go visit your space Viking brethren on Fenris, who do everything just a little better than you can no matter who you are.

Hate em if you wish, but Ultras are not Mary Sue.

My two cents.

locarno24 wrote:
In game - almost certainly Mephiston wins.
In a straight arse-kicking-match, he is by some margin the most dangerous of the 6 chief librarians we have at the moment.

(Ezekiel, Mephiston, Njal, Tigurius, Lok, Ahriman)

Tigurius is probably the most potent loyalist psyker in terms of raw psychic potential, but he's primarily a prescient and a telepath - hence why in-game he's not massively more powerful in a fight than a 'normal' librarian.

Lok and Ezekiel both have artificer plate, which is going to be rather more of an issue (does Sanguine Sword give you AP2?) and Njal can have terminator plate.

Ahriman is the most powerful in terms of classic 'wizard throws fireball' power, but that's arguably the least effective use of psykers, and unfortunately the tzeench discipline isn't great. If you've got the warp charge, throwing a volley of bolts of change should still ventilate any of the others pretty efficiently, though.

I would bet on Sevrin Loth..
choosing powers, 2++ and a force axe for the win

 oldzoggy wrote:
I would bet on Sevrin Loth..
choosing powers, 2++ and a force axe for the win

Has FW fixed Sevrin Loth's armour?

 Happyjew wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
I would bet on Sevrin Loth..
choosing powers, 2++ and a force axe for the win

Has FW fixed Sevrin Loth's armour?

Fixed is a big word. If you ignore the "at the beginning of his player turn" and spend it when you can spend it it works

 Grey Templar wrote:
Fluffwise, I think its an even match. Tigurius is the stronger psyker....

Where in the fluff does it confirm/point to Tigurius being the stronger psyker?

 Slaphead wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Fluffwise, I think its an even match. Tigurius is the stronger psyker....

Where in the fluff does it confirm/point to Tigurius being the stronger psyker?

Nowhere. I don't think there are Psyker sparring matches to determine stuff like this. But while Tigurius has looked on the Hive Mind of the Tyranids(the most powerful psychic entity in the galaxy), Mephiston has done *battle* with it and survived. Mephy also ripped Doombreed apart singlehandedly.

then Ahriman turns up and kicks both their asses

locarno24 wrote:In game - almost certainly Mephiston wins.
In a straight arse-kicking-match, he is by some margin the most dangerous of the 6 chief librarians we have at the moment.

(Ezekiel, Mephiston, Njal, Tigurius, Lok, Ahriman)
.

Seven. You forgot Ahazra Redth