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You forgot that hose three HB's are all firing snap shots if the main gun fired so it is actually 0.02 dead MEQ per turn.

The FW books are not bad and certainly worth it for the SH vehicles (do not even look at Escalation) but almost everything else there is overpriced. Case point being the Leman Russ Annihilator which is a 130 point tank armed with a twin linked lascannon or the Laser Destroyer which is a 60" ranged lascannon mounted on a Leman Russ chassis for 160 points.

 master of ordinance wrote:
You forgot that hose three HB's are all firing snap shots if the main gun fired so it is actually 0.02 dead MEQ per turn.

Tanks for the catch. It has been edited.
Just for the record, the HBs still kill ~.3 MEQ per turn, not 0.02.

It also leads more value to the variant models of LRBT that do not use the battle cannon.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
You forgot that hose three HB's are all firing snap shots if the main gun fired so it is actually 0.02 dead MEQ per turn.

Tanks for the catch. It has been edited.
Just for the record, the HBs still kill ~.3 MEQ per turn, not 0.02.

It also leads more value to the variant models of LRBT that do not use the battle cannon.

My bad. Also that 0 is a ninja, it was meant to be 0.2.
I tend to find the Exterminators are the best. They are slightly cheaper than the others and have a decent amount of firepower and they can kill most vehicles with a couple of turns shooting on the flank.

 master of ordinance wrote:
My bad. Also that 0 is a ninja, it was meant to be 0.2.
I tend to find the Exterminators are the best. They are slightly cheaper than the others and have a decent amount of firepower and they can kill most vehicles with a couple of turns shooting on the flank.

Those also look really good as well. I think the choice is definitely between them and the punisher, given the rules for ordnance weapons. This is assuming the formation granting 4 BS -- which is the only way I can see to make them viable.

The exterminator looks like this vs MEQ
4 * 8/9 * 5/6 * 1/3 = ~1 dead MEQ per turn

The punisher cannon looks like this
20 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~3 dead MEQ per turn.

The exterminator has STR 7 guns, meaning it can be used vs vehicles or high toughness targets as well. They are both good, but different.

Among the other fun and games that Imperial Armor brings to the Guard:

Company Command Vanquishers that when properly kitted are one of the most dangerous anti-vehicle/ MC options around.

Hydras that still ignore Jink saves.

Veteran squads with built-in Tank Hunters (drive-by, anyone?) A bit expensive but fun.

Elite slot Commissar tanks which provide LD 10 bubbles.

Slightly cheaper Manticores.

The infamous and deadly Vulture Gunship.

If most things didn't use their old prices, I would switch over completely to just the Armored Battlegroup list.

Aye, its the one thing that stops me from switching. The points listings are abysmal in these times (Eradicators at HOW many points?!?). That said the mine plough is awesome

If I could actually afford FW Prices I would love to pick up the ABG, it has some very nice sounding stuff in it.

Deadnight wrote:
Simple answer?

The name change.

Thry used to be the imperial guard.

Whilst I'm not sure this makes them terrible on the board it definitely makes them terrible. I loathe the new name, Imperial Guard was a great name, it wasn't fancy because it's not a fancy army it's a mass of men. A.M makes them sound like they are something they are not. Can you imagine the last chancers in AM? No sir they are plain old guard.Gaunts bunch of bandits or the hundreds of other scoundrels we know and love they are dirty tough guardsmen whipped into shape and constantly harassed by political officers just to keep them facing front. They will always be guard to me and I love them dying in their droves win or loose they are humanities shield.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The OP's question is a weird one. The 'Astra Militarum' Codex in a vacuum isn't particularly strong, but the Imperial Guard in general have access to more Forge World units, variant army lists, Allies, and expansion book shenanigans than pretty much everyone else. If you're going to chain yourself to building an army out of a single book the Guard aren't very good at it, but you can build incredibly good lists out of their models and small allied forces using all the toys at their disposal.

I always hear this argument anytime anyone vocalizes frustration with the guard codex. "You should take (x) allies to shore up your weaknesses." Would it solve many of the guards problems? Yes. Absolutely. HOWEVER, if I wanted to play space marines....I would play space marines. If I wanted to play SoB...I would play SoB. I shouldn't be forced to take allies from different armies just to make the codex viable. There are plenty of standalone armies that perform just fine on their own without needing allies to fix massive issues within their codex.

Exactly. If the best thing about the Guard is that you can take non-Guard units that surpass the Guard at doing things the Guard should do, then the Guard are not good.

Which is precisely why I now own a Knight Titan kit as prep for my next Apoc game.

Lots of the problems Astra Militarum seems to be based around the cost in points. Bunch of stuff is overpriced.

I think it's like 55points for a bullgryn... top kek.

 drunken0elf wrote:
Lots of the problems Astra Militarum seems to be based around the cost in points. Bunch of stuff is overpriced.

I think it's like 55points for a bullgryn... top kek.

Ogryns are my favourite (didnt even look at Bullgryns). A minimal unit of three costs me 120 points and each extra Ogryn is another 40 points after that. A minimally effective sized unit of 5 costs me 200 points

 drunken0elf wrote:
Lots of the problems Astra Militarum seems to be based around the cost in points. Bunch of stuff is overpriced.

I think it's like 55points for a bullgryn... top kek.

The problem is that unit costs do not properly reflect the modern meta. Sure, if your opponent is fielding bolters against you, a T5, 3 wound model for 40 points is not that bad. That's 13 points per wound. The problem is when your opponent has D weapons and tons of STR 6/7 shooting.

There are lots of examples of this. C:SM dreadnoughts still being valued at 100 points. The Eldar Avatar is another.
It's the subject of not enough play testing with their units.

Actually, the Imperial Guard codex is a very strong one and I would go as far as to say it is the strongest of the lot, able to beat even the dreaded Eldar with ease......

Provided that you play on a twenty foot square board.
If you actually start out on a twenty foot area and bring artillery then the Imperial Guard can and will smash anything else they will face up to and including a Titan. Our artillery is extremely potent and has a vast range that, when the board is big enough, allows it to squash targets before they can even return fire.
The problem, however, is that very few (almost none infact) games are played on a twenty foot square board.

Tau (that other gunline army that does it better) can deal with this because their extreme range firepower is actually almost none existent. It is their medium to short ranged firepower that really packs the punch.

Except, that's not true, either. The 20' board was the nonsense argument in the VDR thread for the Shadowsword being worth its points against any other Superheavy. Except for things like Drop Pods, WWPs, Infiltrators, Flyers and so forth. Plus there's cover that prevents anything except Basilisk fire.

I would like to see a bit more acknowledgement of that artillery and holistic army idea. I know people like the big guns but honestly the death strike and basilisk just aren't very useful in 40k. Preliminary bombardment before the battle or spotters calling in rounds (a bit more reliably than the master of ordnance) would be cool.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Except, that's not true, either. The 20' board was the nonsense argument in the VDR thread for the Shadowsword being worth its points against any other Superheavy. Except for things like Drop Pods, WWPs, Infiltrators, Flyers and so forth. Plus there's cover that prevents anything except Basilisk fire.

I was being sarcastic. Next time I should put the tags in, it does not translate well over the internet.
That said if you can engage the enemy at our maximum range and have plentiful AA and fighter cover and have blob units to deal with enemy suicide outflank/DS teams and the enemy does not just do a 100% drop pod/DS/flight of the XYZ army then you will almost always win.
So provided your opponent does not bring a competitive list you will have a chance.

OK, thanks. I wasn't sure.

Totally true about opponent bringing a crap list, tho. IG can beat a Mutilator / Possessed / Warp Talon / Defiler CSM list, for sure!

Not if ig spam LRBT and chimeras with no infantry.
Check out the mutilator thread.

I'm forcing the CSM to bring Mulilators, Possessed, Warp Talons *and* Defilers. Not just Mutililators and the best of the rest.

And I'm assuming IG bring their "A" game, such as it is.

Yeah, the ig with an A game have no fear of mutilators. Nobody does except an all knight force

So I had some free time & decided to watch some IG batreps on youtube. The outcomes were expected. IG lost against Eldar, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Chaos Iron Warriors, & Dark Eldar. IG did not win in 1 single game I watched yesterday. Here are some of the comments from the batreps which I found entertaining:

Is there any game where the IG win...like is it possible? I started watching Batreps on three YT channels for.. two months now, and never, EVER seen a winning IG. I love the IG but they really seem to SUCK in the game.... Is it just me, as a newbie, who got this impression or the game really is unbalanced?

I honestly dont think I have ever seen an astra militarum win ever, even at the local game club.

Game was over on the first turn.

Before every guard game people say they are gonna get burned to ashes by the guard, but every single time the exact opposite happens and guard get hammered... IG lose about 80% of the games I've seen, GW seriously need to do something to them.

Very nice report, kind of feel the guard has no chance just from lists but good man sticking it out.

Literally half the battle reports were over turn 2 due to deepstrike/outflank/drop pod shenanigans. Honestly, what are IG players supposed to do against this? Rely on allies (Coteaz) every single game? Unlike Tau which makes it near impossible to get into assault due to firing overwatch at full BS & supporting fire special rule, once the IG line breaks the game is decided. Blobbing infantry around ones armor only serves to delay the inevitable. IG's only decent counter charge units are Ogryns which are the epitome of mediocrity & rough riders which are useless against anything in terminator armor or superior in melee.

I often win with them.

 koooaei wrote:
I often win with them.

As do I and this is against lots of the power armies out there such as Eldar and the new Tau thanks to running Elysian Drop Troops and a Leman Russ heavy army out of Imperial Armor Volume #1 2nd Edition. With my Elysians by running a flyer heavy army it really helps increase my survivability and generate even more Firepower then Chimeras. What also makes them better is the fact that they can come in Turn 1 thanks to the Combat Drop Special Rule and also having Deep Strike on your Veterans it enables them to get the first strike in against any target. As long as its not a Tau player spamming Sky Rays this list has alot of potential to do damage to the newer books.

With my Krieg Armored Division I heavily rely on my Armor 14 to get me through the battle, however as mentioned there are many things that can counter it, especially from the newer army books. By running it out of Imperial Armor #1 2nd Edition however it goes a long way it making a few things easier against said armies. Beast Hunter Shell Vanquishers for Riptides and Wraithknights, Leman Russ Battle Tanks equipped with Infernus Shells to give me flexibility against a wide array of targets, Infantry to screen and bubble wrap my tanks from Deep Strikers and Techpriests to fix them up. With this list I was able to grind my way to a close win over a Tau Hunter Contingent (and if you are wondering my store is Very Competitive, even most friendly games are carried out with strong lists) just this past weekend.

 koooaei wrote:
I often win with them.

Are the batreps in the mutilator thread normal for your meta?

There is a impguard player here who wins often. It's not because of his codex or his skill though, he is pretty awful at the game. Mostly its because he faces chaos marines and newbie space marine players and brings mostly tanks. I don't play against him, as fighting nothing but tanks is boring and he refuses to play anything differently, so I ignore him as he trashes an opponents army as the other player just moves forward and shoots blindly. That doesn't prove that the codex is good though. It just means that that part of my meta is really weak. For example he refuses to play against my mono-nurgle daemon army, saying summoning is cheese and that having a GUO and 2 daemon princes is overpowered, or how a friends Necrons just Devestates his tanks

Akiasura wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I often win with them.

Are the batreps in the mutilator thread normal for your meta?

That was not from my meta - it was from vassal. And i encourage you to play against me. Both against mutilators and AM. What's better than seeing stuff with your own eyez, eh? What are you willing to stake?

 koooaei wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I often win with them.

Are the batreps in the mutilator thread normal for your meta?

That was not from my meta - it was from vassal. And i encourage you to play against me. Both against mutilators and AM. What's better than seeing stuff with your own eyez, eh? What are you willing to stake?

Calm down, it was just a simple question. Your bat reps from the mutilator thread were very casual, and I thought one of them was against a space marine friend who also brought a very weak list, so I thought I would ask.

If vassal worked on iPads, and I could figure it out, I'd play. It'd be more interesting than reading the forums, even if some of my turns would take forever. Sadly the college doesn't want us using pcs anymore since students are encouraged to do everything electronically.

As for stake...are you asking me to bet something? On a game where you can bring muties or AM and I can bring Eldar? That doesn't see, fair to you.

What kills IG IMO is the amount of ignore cover, spammed str6+ and D weapons in the game. Combined with the lack of mobility inherent to the guard they just have a huge uphill battle trying to get to objectives.

 Lukash_ wrote:
Among the other fun and games that Imperial Armor brings to the Guard:
Veteran squads with built-in Tank Hunters (drive-by, anyone?) A bit expensive but fun.

Just double-checked IA1v2 and didn't see what unit you are referring to. Can you let me know?

Cheers,