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I'd leave them alone.

To people who say they're too powerful: they're no more better than the other things that are "too powerful", like distortion weapons, gauss weapons and arc weapons. Unless it's a new game edition that nerfs *everyone* across the board, messing with grav isn't a good idea. Necron, Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, Mechanicus, Imperial Knights, and Dark Angels are all at a nice equilibrium, as far as I'm concerned. Guard have gotten a little boost now; they need a little more love, as well as BA, DE, Grey Knights, Orks, Tyranid, and the game will be nicely externally balanced.

To people who say people will pick grav over other stuff, like heavy bolters and heavy flamers. Well yeah, congrats, you just described the last two decades of 40k. When has there ever been internal balance? There have always been crappy weapon choices and better weapon choices, if your goal was list optimization. When was the last time you saw a heavy bolter in a competitive game? Really, it has nothing to do with grav, and everything to do with GW giving gamers another reason to buy new models with the cool new weapons.

There are also all sorts of nice things in the game like invisibility, allied death stars, drop pods, very hard to kill models, resurrection, JSJ, and so on. They're part of the game. 40k is often (not always) a game of my good stuff against your good stuff, if you're building lists to win. If you want to play a game that strips out all that, either modify the rules (all of them), or play 30k

NOBODY thinks Gauss is too powerful.

Grav guns don't have amps. For the third time or so this thread.

Martel732 wrote:
Grav guns don't have amps. For the third time or so this thread.

The only Grav that really counts does come with an Amp.

SJ

I wouldn't say that grav guns don't count.

At any rate, grav guns aren't as disruptive to the game as the MC rules, so those would have to be changed first. Especially the 2+ armor MCs. There's literally no other good way to get rid of them other than D weapons. Even scatterlasers are relatively ineffective against Riptide/Dreadknight.

They are too good vs to many things.

And all the.talk of they are needed to deal with MC'S and GC is BS iMO

You have access to plasma guns, plasma cannons,, lascannons, melta guns, multi meltas, Assault cannons, missile launchers, all AP2 and AP3. There are plenty of other tools to deal with MC, GC and 2+ armor.

None get used cause grav is too good. It has no draw backs and makes list building easy mode imo.

Making a list should be a choice of sacrifices and balances. Not insert grav to deal with everything.

Armies should have to make a choice to have enough anti armor , MC and infantry weapons in there army. Not 1 gun should cover all 3 areas.

My 2 teef.

P.s. not all armies have grav and deal with MC and GC's just fine. Marines should not get the easy mode gun choice when they have a lot of other weapon choices.

The weapons you listed are all ineffective vs mcs because of low rates of fire or lacking AP 3. The assault cannon particularly made me lol because of the terrible ass platforms it comes on. Missile launchers are similarly a complete joke in 7th ed. The plasma gun is okay vs MCs, but even it can't wound WKs worth a damn. You can call BS, but you'd be completely wrong.

The grav mechanic might be too strong, but just add it to the pile with the MC USR, GMC USR, the scatterbike, the markerlight, etc. There's nothing special about grav in 40K. Plenty of lists out there that can shoot older codices off the table without trying.

Those lists without grav with amps don't deal with MCs and GCs just fine. I have such a list and MCs and GCs stomp all over the BA.

Grav is only efficient vs expensive vehicles, which no one is bringing anyway because of hps and Str D. Grav is not good vs cheap vehicles.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NOBODY thinks Gauss is too powerful.

I was about to say the same thing. Out of all the weapon special rules (i.e. Bladestorm, Grav, ext) Gauss is probably the worst....

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NOBODY thinks Gauss is too powerful.

I was about to say the same thing. Out of all the weapon special rules (i.e. Bladestorm, Grav, ext) Gauss is probably the worst....

It's better than the bolter special rules.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NOBODY thinks Gauss is too powerful.

I was about to say the same thing. Out of all the weapon special rules (i.e. Bladestorm, Grav, ext) Gauss is probably the worst....

It's better than the bolter special rules.

*slaps knee* Gosh darn, that's a good one.

No but really. Bolters aren't supposed to have special rules.

I'd also argue that grav cents are perfectly fair if you take invisibility out of the game. They wreck a unit or two, and then you shoot THEM off the table. T5 2+ W2 no invuln isn't exactly hard to crack in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NOBODY thinks Gauss is too powerful.

I was about to say the same thing. Out of all the weapon special rules (i.e. Bladestorm, Grav, ext) Gauss is probably the worst....

It's better than the bolter special rules.

*slaps knee* Gosh darn, that's a good one.

No but really. Bolters aren't supposed to have special rules.

I think Gauss is piling on already horrible vehicle rules. So in that sense, it could be argued as too powerful. I'd rather have a Necron warrior over a marine any day of the week, myself.

Martel732 wrote:
The weapons you listed are all ineffective vs mcs because of low rates of fire or lacking AP 3. The assault cannon particularly made me lol because of the terrible ass platforms it comes on. Missile launchers are similarly a complete joke in 7th ed. The plasma gun is okay vs MCs, but even it can't wound WKs worth a damn. You can call BS, but you'd be completely wrong.

The grav mechanic might be too strong, but just add it to the pile with the MC USR, GMC USR, the scatterbike, the markerlight, etc. There's nothing special about grav in 40K. Plenty of lists out there that can shoot older codices off the table without trying.

Those lists without grav with amps don't deal with MCs and GCs just fine. I have such a list and MCs and GCs stomp all over the BA.

Every gun I named has AP2 or AP3 except the assault cannon, which can have AP2 on a 6. So actually every gun I named is AP2 or AP3.

Again other armies kill MC with out grav or D. I've dropped MC at range with orks and use single shot rokkits and mega blastas.

And I've seen marines wipe people using no grav. Grav is a crutch for marines imo.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The weapons you listed are all ineffective vs mcs because of low rates of fire or lacking AP 3. The assault cannon particularly made me lol because of the terrible ass platforms it comes on. Missile launchers are similarly a complete joke in 7th ed. The plasma gun is okay vs MCs, but even it can't wound WKs worth a damn. You can call BS, but you'd be completely wrong.

The grav mechanic might be too strong, but just add it to the pile with the MC USR, GMC USR, the scatterbike, the markerlight, etc. There's nothing special about grav in 40K. Plenty of lists out there that can shoot older codices off the table without trying.

Those lists without grav with amps don't deal with MCs and GCs just fine. I have such a list and MCs and GCs stomp all over the BA.

Grav is only efficient vs expensive vehicles, which no one is bringing anyway because of hps and Str D. Grav is not good vs cheap vehicles.

Grav has the same effect vs armor 10 as it does vs armor 14. So how is it less effective vs cheap vehicles when is functions exactly the same vs both ?

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The weapons you listed are all ineffective vs mcs because of low rates of fire or lacking AP 3. The assault cannon particularly made me lol because of the terrible ass platforms it comes on. Missile launchers are similarly a complete joke in 7th ed. The plasma gun is okay vs MCs, but even it can't wound WKs worth a damn. You can call BS, but you'd be completely wrong.

The grav mechanic might be too strong, but just add it to the pile with the MC USR, GMC USR, the scatterbike, the markerlight, etc. There's nothing special about grav in 40K. Plenty of lists out there that can shoot older codices off the table without trying.

Those lists without grav with amps don't deal with MCs and GCs just fine. I have such a list and MCs and GCs stomp all over the BA.

Every gun I named has AP2 or AP3 except the assault cannon, which can have AP2 on a 6. So actually every gun I named is AP2 or AP3.

Again other armies kill MC with out grav or D. I've dropped MC at range with orks and use single shot rokkits and mega blastas.

And I've seen marines wipe people using no grav. Grav is a crutch for marines imo.

AP 2 or AP 3 with a terrible rate of fire. You simply don't have enough shots to take down a Riptide or WK with these weapons before they have leveled your list or assaulted you in the case of the WK. The assault cannon, as it is currently fielded by the Imperium, is simply a terrible choice because of the platforms it comes on. The cover rules for MCs/GCs are also murder for the weapons you listed off. Your proposed solution is simply not realistic in 7th.

I don't think other armies have the success you claim. I've seen too many games against older codices where MCs and GMCs utter dominate because they are functionally immortal.

I'm sure marines wipe Orks just fine with no grav. Eldar or Tau? Not so much.

Martel732 wrote:

I think Gauss is piling on already horrible vehicle rules. So in that sense, it could be argued as too powerful. I'd rather have a Necron warrior over a marine any day of the week, myself.

The reason Warriors are better than Marines (at certain things) is because Warriors are the backbone of a Necron army. They're how we deal with vehicles half the time. We lack options like Devastators or Twinlinked Meltas on vehicles, or Grav, ext. Our most cost effective method of dealing with scary stuff is our standard troop, and even then it's not entirely reliable.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I think Gauss is piling on already horrible vehicle rules. So in that sense, it could be argued as too powerful. I'd rather have a Necron warrior over a marine any day of the week, myself.

The reason Warriors are better than Marines (at certain things) is because Warriors are the backbone of a Necron army. They're how we deal with vehicles half the time. We lack options like Devastators or Twinlinked Meltas on vehicles, or Grav, ext. Our most cost effective method of dealing with scary stuff is our standard troop, and even then it's not entirely reliable.

Except devastators and meltas are now pretty bad in 7th. The vaunted triple melta ASM drop pod from BA has about a 50/50 of popping a Rhino. Really scary, that. Anti-tank is now about high ROF hp stripping, not quality shots. What does that? Scatterlasers and Gauss. Nothing the Imperium has. Non-grav low AP weapons are mostly garbage now. Grav isn't a crutch. It's functional. Xeno commanders complaining about marines having one functional weapon system among a sea of garbage is pretty frustrating.

Pretty sure that Wraiths are good at dealing with scary stuff. And they're cheap for what they do. Like make my entire army concept pointless.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I think Gauss is piling on already horrible vehicle rules. So in that sense, it could be argued as too powerful. I'd rather have a Necron warrior over a marine any day of the week, myself.

The reason Warriors are better than Marines (at certain things) is because Warriors are the backbone of a Necron army. They're how we deal with vehicles half the time. We lack options like Devastators or Twinlinked Meltas on vehicles, or Grav, ext. Our most cost effective method of dealing with scary stuff is our standard troop, and even then it's not entirely reliable.

Except devastators and meltas are now pretty bad in 7th. The vaunted triple melta ASM drop pod from BA has about a 50/50 of popping a Rhino. Really scary, that. Anti-tank is now about high ROF hp stripping, not quality shots. What does that? Scatterlasers and Gauss. Nothing the Imperium has. Non-grav low AP weapons are mostly garbage now. Grav isn't a crutch. It's functional. Xeno commanders complaining about marines having one functional weapon system among a sea of garbage is pretty frustrating.

Pretty sure that Wraiths are good at dealing with scary stuff. And they're cheap for what they do. Like make my entire army concept pointless.

More frustrating when marines complain they need grav since their other weapons are "garbage". But compared to most weapons in some xenos armies the "garbage weaons" marines have are better than the xenos weapons.

My orks would kill for a range melta weapon. But in a marine army they are garbage.

They wouldn't work any better for your Orks than they do for marines. Which is not well. These weapons you are talking about are bad because the math says they're bad. Not because I'm being a BA homer or something.

Marines and the Imperium in general certainly have inferior weapons across the board compared to Eldar and Tau, the primary Xenos of interest. Other Xenos are running old codices and so are better compared to the BA armory, which is an even bigger joke at this point. DE are in a similar spot as marines, as the dark lance is now horrid at its purported job.

" But in a marine army they are garbage."

Because MCs laugh at them (lul 1 W) and most vehicles get hped out before they explode. That's why they are bad.

Again, even grav cents aren't OP at all without invisibility, because they become one-shot units that cost a lot.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The weapons you listed are all ineffective vs mcs because of low rates of fire or lacking AP 3. The assault cannon particularly made me lol because of the terrible ass platforms it comes on. Missile launchers are similarly a complete joke in 7th ed. The plasma gun is okay vs MCs, but even it can't wound WKs worth a damn. You can call BS, but you'd be completely wrong.

The grav mechanic might be too strong, but just add it to the pile with the MC USR, GMC USR, the scatterbike, the markerlight, etc. There's nothing special about grav in 40K. Plenty of lists out there that can shoot older codices off the table without trying.

Those lists without grav with amps don't deal with MCs and GCs just fine. I have such a list and MCs and GCs stomp all over the BA.

Every gun I named has AP2 or AP3 except the assault cannon, which can have AP2 on a 6. So actually every gun I named is AP2 or AP3.

Again other armies kill MC with out grav or D. I've dropped MC at range with orks and use single shot rokkits and mega blastas.

And I've seen marines wipe people using no grav. Grav is a crutch for marines imo.

AP 2 or AP 3 with a terrible rate of fire. You simply don't have enough shots to take down a Riptide or WK with these weapons before they have leveled your list or assaulted you in the case of the WK. The assault cannon, as it is currently fielded by the Imperium, is simply a terrible choice because of the platforms it comes on. The cover rules for MCs/GCs are also murder for the weapons you listed off. Your proposed solution is simply not realistic in 7th.

I don't think other armies have the success you claim. I've seen too many games against older codices where MCs and GMCs utter dominate because they are functionally immortal.

I'm sure marines wipe Orks just fine with no grav. Eldar or Tau? Not so much.

So nerf the select few ridiculous MC's/GMC's out there!
The majority of MC's aren't the problem here, but rather the criminally undercosted Tau & Eldar ones... Tyranid & Chaos Daemons monster mash list aren't game dominating, except for the very specific flying circus versions.

Tone down Grav. Increase the cost of Riptides and *ALL* GMC's so that they're better balanced.



You want to know what real hell is like? Try being the one and only MEQ army that has to deal with all that crap *without* the current crutch that Grav provides!
Chaos Marines have no Deathstar of 'uber doom... no infantry-carried weapons with S6+ and a RoF greater than a paltry 2... Plasma is still our deadliest option... Suicidal characters... everything bar 1 unit is overcosted (and yet daring to bring even a single Hellturkey means you're a WaaC's d-bag somehow?)

At least Daemons can save the day, except that our Str.D stuff is (shockingly) balanced instead of being 'lolz-win!' like Eldar Str.D, nor does it have the cost effectiveness & resilience of Loyalists Grav platforms.

CSM are still better than BA because of better FW support. Grav guns on bikeswith no special rules aren't that great.

"So nerf the select few ridiculous MC's/GMC's out there! "

They just printed those codices. So unless 8th ed nerfs them, this is not an option, making nerfing grav not an option. And you better believe Tyranids MCs will stomp all over BA like chumps. CSM, too. The whole "I fight at full strength until my last wound is gone, unlike vehicles or squads of infantry" is insanely good. Despite what Tyranid players claim. There's not enough ID in the game for that to even be a factor, either.

Even if you nerfed the MCs, those Imperial heavies you listed STILL wouldn't be good because high ROF hp scrubbing would still be better anti-tank. If you play CSM, you should understand how bad Imperial heavy weapons are. At least Havocs and take hp scrubbing weapons in the form of autocannon.

I really feel like Gravs should just be AP3 and wound based on Size categories.

That way it doesn't step on Plasma toes.

(that an a stealth nerf on the riptide type things to a 3+ save since it literally has no reason for being 3+.)

 Desubot wrote:
I really feel like Gravs should just be AP3 and wound based on Size categories.

That way it doesn't step on Plasma toes.

(that an a stealth nerf on the riptide type things to a 3+ save since it literally has no reason for being 3+.)

Clearly, they have no intention of making the Riptide 3+. Most 2+ armor units are boned without grav anyway, so I don't see this as a useful change.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
They are too good vs to many things.

And all the.talk of they are needed to deal with MC'S and GC is BS iMO

You have access to plasma guns, plasma cannons,, lascannons, melta guns, multi meltas, Assault cannons, missile launchers, all AP2 and AP3. There are plenty of other tools to deal with MC, GC and 2+ armor.

None get used cause grav is too good. It has no draw backs and makes list building easy mode imo.

Making a list should be a choice of sacrifices and balances. Not insert grav to deal with everything.

Armies should have to make a choice to have enough anti armor , MC and infantry weapons in there army. Not 1 gun should cover all 3 areas.

My 2 teef.

P.s. not all armies have grav and deal with MC and GC's just fine. Marines should not get the easy mode gun choice when they have a lot of other weapon choices.

Well your "2 teef" is incorrect. Let us look at the math to kill a Riptide with Stimulant Injectors, shall we?
A Lascannon in the hands of a Space Marine has a .666 chance to hit, .83 chance to wound, and then there's a .5 to save it under the 5++/5+++. That's a grand total of .28 wounds inflicted.

You need 18 Lascannons shots to kill the Riptide. 18. That's without camping in cover for a better save too.

Now I ask you to prove to me Lascannons are an effective tool to kill Riptides with this information, please.

Most people either don't realize or can't accept how bad non-grav Imperial heavy weapons are. It's really annoying, because lascannons burning holes straight through targets should be pretty deadly. Not in this game. The game is now about ROF and ignoring cover.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I really feel like Gravs should just be AP3 and wound based on Size categories.

That way it doesn't step on Plasma toes.

(that an a stealth nerf on the riptide type things to a 3+ save since it literally has no reason for being 3+.)

Clearly, they have no intention of making the Riptide 3+. Most 2+ armor units are boned without grav anyway, so I don't see this as a useful change.

What besides bad luck and people not taking plasma anymore?

2+ armor is not supposed to be unstoppable. its just math.

the problem is that Grav just takes on everything with no repercussion.
leave plasma for 2+ armor save dudes,
make Gravs the anti MC type things
Flamer is anti hoards and swarms
HB: can go cry in a corner

it forces choices and thats a good thing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
They are too good vs to many things.

And all the.talk of they are needed to deal with MC'S and GC is BS iMO

You have access to plasma guns, plasma cannons,, lascannons, melta guns, multi meltas, Assault cannons, missile launchers, all AP2 and AP3. There are plenty of other tools to deal with MC, GC and 2+ armor.

None get used cause grav is too good. It has no draw backs and makes list building easy mode imo.

Making a list should be a choice of sacrifices and balances. Not insert grav to deal with everything.

Armies should have to make a choice to have enough anti armor , MC and infantry weapons in there army. Not 1 gun should cover all 3 areas.

My 2 teef.

P.s. not all armies have grav and deal with MC and GC's just fine. Marines should not get the easy mode gun choice when they have a lot of other weapon choices.

Well your "2 teef" is incorrect. Let us look at the math to kill a Riptide with Stimulant Injectors, shall we?
A Lascannon in the hands of a Space Marine has a .666 chance to hit, .83 chance to wound, and then there's a .5 to save it under the 5++/5+++. That's a grand total of .28 wounds inflicted.

You need 18 Lascannons shots to kill the Riptide. 18. That's without camping in cover for a better save too.

Now I ask you to prove to me Lascannons are an effective tool to kill Riptides with this information, please.

I've dropped a riptide with ork shooting with mega blastas At BS2, S8, AP2 in a single turn. So it can be done with out grav. Math hammer isn't exact.

Again armies with out grav and weaker / less shot weapons drop mcs.

Done arguing about grav. It's to strong and needs to be toned down. So other weapons are viable.

Also I feel ya CSM's. I'm glad we can find ways to kill MC witb out the grav crutch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I really feel like Gravs should just be AP3 and wound based on Size categories.

That way it doesn't step on Plasma toes.

(that an a stealth nerf on the riptide type things to a 3+ save since it literally has no reason for being 3+.)

Clearly, they have no intention of making the Riptide 3+. Most 2+ armor units are boned without grav anyway, so I don't see this as a useful change.

What besides bad luck and people not taking plasma anymore?

2+ armor is not supposed to be unstoppable. its just math.

the problem is that Grav just takes on everything with no repercussion.
leave plasma for 2+ armor save dudes,
make Gravs the anti MC type things
Flamer is anti hoards and swarms
HB: can go cry in a corner

it forces choices and thats a good thing.

This =) seeing armies composed of all the same weapon kills the game and list building.

In my meta, Heavy Bolters are a better choice over Grav. Thats how. bad it is here.

"Math hammer isn't exact. "

Yes, it is. There are just outliers.

Grav spam is all roses until the demons show up. Or gladius.

"So other weapons are viable. "

The other weapons aren't viable even with grav toned down.

"Again armies with out grav and weaker / less shot weapons drop mcs. "

They kinda don't. That's the problem. I play one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I really feel like Gravs should just be AP3 and wound based on Size categories.

That way it doesn't step on Plasma toes.

(that an a stealth nerf on the riptide type things to a 3+ save since it literally has no reason for being 3+.)

Clearly, they have no intention of making the Riptide 3+. Most 2+ armor units are boned without grav anyway, so I don't see this as a useful change.

What besides bad luck and people not taking plasma anymore?

2+ armor is not supposed to be unstoppable. its just math.

the problem is that Grav just takes on everything with no repercussion.
leave plasma for 2+ armor save dudes,
make Gravs the anti MC type things
Flamer is anti hoards and swarms
HB: can go cry in a corner

it forces choices and thats a good thing.

Plasma can't stop Riptide because it has to get within 12" and can't stop WK because it can't wound WK. On top of killing your own dudes. I tried all this with the 5th ed BA codex in 6th. Plasma is a fail in 7th.

Martel732 wrote:


Plasma can't stop Riptide because it has to get within 12" and can't stop WK because it can't wound WK. On top of killing your own dudes. I tried all this with the 5th ed BA codex in 6th. Plasma is a fail in 7th.

Did plasma become a 12" str 3 gun while i wasn't looking?

Yeah it wont kill a Riptide or a WK out right which is why i also would push for a MC table.
the game has way too much wrong with it for simple fixes you would have to go through it with a sledge hammer if you want things to be remotely fair.

Martel732 wrote:
"Math hammer isn't exact. "

Yes, it is. There are just outliers.

Grav spam is all roses until the demons show up. Or gladius.

"So other weapons are viable. "

The other weapons aren't viable even with grav toned down.

"Again armies with out grav and weaker / less shot weapons drop mcs. "

They kinda don't. That's the problem. I play one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I really feel like Gravs should just be AP3 and wound based on Size categories.

That way it doesn't step on Plasma toes.

(that an a stealth nerf on the riptide type things to a 3+ save since it literally has no reason for being 3+.)

Clearly, they have no intention of making the Riptide 3+. Most 2+ armor units are boned without grav anyway, so I don't see this as a useful change.

What besides bad luck and people not taking plasma anymore?

2+ armor is not supposed to be unstoppable. its just math.

the problem is that Grav just takes on everything with no repercussion.
leave plasma for 2+ armor save dudes,
make Gravs the anti MC type things
Flamer is anti hoards and swarms
HB: can go cry in a corner

it forces choices and thats a good thing.

Plasma can't stop Riptide because it has to get within 12" and can't stop WK because it can't wound WK. On top of killing your own dudes. I tried all this with the 5th ed BA codex in 6th. Plasma is a fail in 7th.

I play one too and I kill mcs. Never tell me the odds =)

We can agree to disagree.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Plasma can't stop Riptide because it has to get within 12" and can't stop WK because it can't wound WK. On top of killing your own dudes. I tried all this with the 5th ed BA codex in 6th. Plasma is a fail in 7th.

Did plasma become a 12" str 3 gun while i wasn't looking?

Yeah it wont kill a Riptide or a WK out right which is why i also would push for a MC table.
the game has way too much wrong with it for simple fixes you would have to go through it with a sledge hammer if you want things to be remotely fair.

You must double tap the Riptide to have any hope of hurting it. That makes the range 12", not 24". Wounding WK on 5+ with a 15 pt or more expensive weapon is futility incarnate. Especially since you get within assault range to double tap. Plasma is bad against these elite units. Plasma is good against losers like BA. Or people playing "reasonable" marine lists.

"I play one too and I kill mcs. Never tell me the odds =) "

For every one of you, there are five of me. That's what odds mean. I'm glad you can roll out your butt and your opponents have six sided dice with 5 "1s". The rest of us aren't so lucky, and that's the kind of rolling the have-not codices need to deal with these units.