How would you change grav weapons for better balance.

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**Tactical_Spam**

Grav wounds on armour save. Daemons have Invulns, usually. Grav can't touch basic daemons

**Experiment 626**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
Grav wounds on armour save. Daemons have Invulns, usually. Grav can't touch basic daemons

Well, it does wound on 6's - scary!

**flamingkillamajig**

Experiment 626 wrote:
flamingkillamajig wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Pretty much the only army in the entire game that doesn't care much about Grav are Daemons... And even then, DP's and the new Str.D 'Thirster still run and hide from it due to their typical 3+ saves.

One army out of what, 14-15+ that overall laughs at Grav is pretty damning about just how badly OP the weapon is. What I find even more hilarious, is how Loyalists defend it as being their only option vs. pretty much the entire game, yet Chaos players still get called out for bringing even a single Helldrake.

Pot, meet Kettle.

What about horde armies like guard and orks? I've been out of 40k since 5th and am trying to run dark eldar. I don't think they fear grav mostly but the sad bit is the armies that don't fear grav are probably not as feared in the first place. Somehow I don't think anybody seriously thinks to themselves "**** it! How to I beat Dark Eldar?! X is just too strong!"

-----

Perhaps Grav shouldn't hurt gigantic creatures and such as well as it currently does. I mean poisoned weapons don't. You'd think an incredibly massive unit would be harder for a grav weapon to hurt maybe. I mean I wouldn't mind the idea of enhanced grav weapons being similar to Fleshbane weapons but it would help fix things I think.

I'm not entirely sure grav weapons are as bad as they could be but perhaps toughness or strength should help negate the effect of the to wound bit on armor. One possible method would be take the armor being 2+ (5 armor for the 2+ armor save vs t 4 meaning it wounds on a 3+ and 4 armor for the 3+ armor save vs t 4 meaning it wounds on a 4+). It can still go through armor as it already does but it would at least wound certain dudes less. Then you take monsters and it probably only wounds most of them on a 6+. At least at this point plasma, lascannons, rockets and similar would still have a purpose.

Except that the principle behind Grav is that the bigger & weightier the target is, the harsher the grav field affects them. So wounding MC's much easer than basic infantry grunts makes perfect sense.
The problem is that it's a huge rate of fire, plus ap2, and smoke's the scariest things in the game with complete ease.

Dark Eldar don't like it much either, simply because of how it can ruthlessly crush all their boats with auto-immobilised results. Orks are likewise affected, plus they've got some heavier units such as Meganobz, 4+ save Nob bikers, etc...

Really, it's only Daemons who laugh at Grav...
Everything we have is at worst a 5++, and between Psychic powers + built-in abilities/wargear we can easily boost those invulns.
Only a very few models can even take a 3+ save - and there's no such thing as a 2+ save in the army. Characters rolling up a 3+ save can simply default it away when faced with mass Grav.
Our troops are cheap as chips, and our scads of multi-wound stuff can't be drowned by even re-rolling to wound cannons before it starts beating face in combat.
The only vehicle we have that's typically fielded typically comes with either a torrent type template or a long ranged battle cannon shot. (and Nurgle Grinder's typically get 2+ cover saves to boot!)

So 1 entire army out of how many doesn't give a rat's fart about the no-brainer weapon option for Vanillas/DA's? That's pretty awful balance in my book.

I dunno I last played in 5th and was about to go to 7th. What should they kill then? I suppose you could make it the opposite then. Just make it the more wounds it has or higher toughness/strength with armor then the more damage it takes.

Maybe if something is a monstrous creature or gargantuan creature then it takes extra damage.

**chalkobob**

Wounds MC's and GMC's on 2's, everything else on 6's and no longer immobilizes vehicles. For those saying grav's power is justified because of the power of MC's (which is a fair point) this makes them even better at that, but it will no longer be so awesome against everything else, which is what I feel makes grav so egregious.

**NorseSig**

I might agree to some of these ideas for a grav nerf under the following conditions

Sensible and reasonable nerfs to eldar, tau and necrons especially the broken gak like WKs ect. Tau need a few nerfs as do necrons, but pretty much the entire Eldar codex needs toning down, seriously even their bad units are as good as or better than the best stuff other armies bring.

Sensible nerfs to MCs and GMCs and appropriate buffs and balances to vehicles of a ll types.

Effective and useful upgrades to IoM stuff so they don't have to use grav just to compete (not just Space Marines have grav) the most notable change being to plasma (seriously, they aren't effective enough to justify the gets hot!. It was taken in the past because that was all there was). Many of the other upgrade choices aren't taken because they are either cost prohibitive or ineffective and in several cases both.

The thing is, that right now, the only thing keeping a number of IoM armies competitive and relevent IS the grav especially considering the OP nature of Eldar, Tau and Necrons.

Until those changes happen, barring a moronic ruling by GW, I am keeping my grav as is and anyone who wants to change it can just stick it. I at least want a chance at winning in games. I don't mind losing, but I have no chance to win it is no fun.

**Draco**

Just make them heavy or rapid fire weapons. Grav-gun rapid fire and grav cannon heavy 3.

**AnomanderRake**

Delete them and replace them with the 2e/30k grav-guns. And then seriously rethink the 2+-armour MCs that necessitated their introduction in the first place instead of going on a swallowing-the-spider-to-catch-the-fly bender with ever bigger guns to fight the bigger things.

**Talys**

Martel732 wrote:

I'm not seeing the great BA perks. ATSKNF is useless in a game of being tabled by scatterlasers.

Right, but that's because we got shafted with a codex before all the factions got perky. Hopefully, when they refresh BA, we'll get something unique and playable, in the same way as Dark Angels. Like I said, almost all the factions pre 2015 either have crappy perks, or don't have perks adjusted to the post 2015.

For example Grey Knights are thematically excellent (all psykers), but the execution is flat because the meta has moved on, leaving them with too little that works. BA are also thematically excellent (close combat, rawr!), and if they were bumped to be competitive with 2015 books, could really work.

**ionusx**

how about this, we agree to nerf our grav in a serious discussion when you stop bringing gargantuan monstrous creatures and spamming fortune, markerlights, and invisible..mmk

**vipoid**

ionusx wrote:
how about this, we agree to nerf our grav in a serious discussion when you stop bringing gargantuan monstrous creatures and spamming fortune, markerlights, and invisible..mmk

Done.

**MagicJuggler**

Insane Thought: Make the Grav Cannon a Template Heavy 1 Torrent. This makes the Grav Cannon *deadly* against large groups of heavily armored models, but far less dangerous versus MCs/smaller multiwound units.

Marines don't have any Torrents anyway.

**Ninski**

I play orks, are these the guns that bounce off my t-shirts and make my opponent face palm?

**Sonic Keyboard**

I like TheNewBlood's suggestion

Graviton:
When rolling to wound with weapon with Graviton special rule, to wound roll needed depends on majority of models in the target unit:
+ Extremely bulky or Monstrous or Gargantuan monstrous creatures (including Flying ones) - wound on 2+
+ Very bulky - wound on 3+
+ Bulky - wound on 4+
+ Swarms - wound on 6+
+ Other non-vehicle models - wound on 5+
If Vehicle get hit from weapon with Graviton rule at least once during the Shooting phase, at the end of phase that vehicle suffer single Haywire hit.

Grav-gun: 18" S* Ap2 Assault 2, Graviton
Grav-cannon w/Grav-amp: 30" S* Ap2 Heavy 2, Graviton, Grav-amp
Heavy grav-cannon: 30" S* Ap2 Heavy 4, Graviton

Grav-amp: weapon with Grav-amp double amount of wounds caused to Monstrous and Gargantuan monstrous creatures (including Flying ones).

**Martel732**

You'll never get through a WK in time with only two shots. Remember than they can have 5++/5+++ save.

**vipoid**

Martel732 wrote:
You'll never get through a WK in time with only two shots. Remember than they can have 5++/5+++ save.

For about the 50th time, nerf WKs as well.

**Runic**

I'd make them AP4 Rending, remove the immobilization rule, and limit them to either Rapid Fire or Heavy Weapons only.

**Sonic Keyboard**

I guess with Grav-amp doubling the wounds 8 hits will be enough

**notredameguy10**

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
I like TheNewBlood's suggestion

Graviton:
When rolling to wound with weapon with Graviton special rule, to wound roll needed depends on majority of models in the target unit:
+ Extremely bulky or Monstrous or Gargantuan monstrous creatures (including Flying ones) - wound on 2+
+ Very bulky - wound on 3+
+ Bulky - wound on 4+
+ Swarms - wound on 6+
+ Other non-vehicle models - wound on 5+
If Vehicle get hit from weapon with Graviton rule at least once during the Shooting phase, at the end of phase that vehicle suffer single Haywire hit.

Grav-gun: 18" S* Ap2 Assault 2, Graviton
Grav-cannon w/Grav-amp: 30" S* Ap2 Heavy 2, Graviton, Grav-amp
Heavy grav-cannon: 30" S* Ap2 Heavy 4, Graviton

Grav-amp: weapon with Grav-amp double amount of wounds caused to Monstrous and Gargantuan monstrous creatures (including Flying ones).

LOL so basically you not only want it to wound on a 2+ against MC, ignore there armor as it is AP 2, but you want it to also do DOUBLE the wounds with grav amps?

**vipoid**

Leaving aside the 'double-wounds' malarkey for now, if we're going by size then I don't see why it should wound GCs and MCs on the same amount. It seems like only GCs should be wounded on 2s, and MCs should be wounded on 3s. After that you'd have Very bulky (4+), Bulky (5+),infantry and anything else (+6).

**Martel732**

vipoid wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You'll never get through a WK in time with only two shots. Remember than they can have 5++/5+++ save.

For about the 50th time, nerf WKs as well.

Then quantify said nerfs in the grav gun proposal as well. So you can get Eldar hate. I'd settle for a price hike to 500 or 550 pts.

**vipoid**

Personally, I'd make it cost a bit less than that but reduce its move to 6".

Then again, I don't think IKs and such should be able to move 12" either.

**Martel732**

vipoid wrote:
Personally, I'd make it cost a bit less than that but reduce its move to 6".

Then again, I don't think IKs and such should be able to move 12" either.

Even with a 6" move, it needs to cost more. It's durability is absolutely NUTS.

**vipoid**

Martel732 wrote:
Even with a 6" move, it needs to cost more. It's durability is absolutely NUTS.

I meant less than the 500-550pts you were proposing.

**Martel732**

vipoid wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Even with a 6" move, it needs to cost more. It's durability is absolutely NUTS.

I meant less than the 500-550pts you were proposing.

Oh, that's fine then. With a 6" move, it would focus more on the D-cannon scheme, which is still horrifying for a lot of units.

**Bryan01**

At least if some of the big fellas like Dreadknights, wraithknight, riptides, stormsurge could only move 6 standard, you wouldn't have to necessarily go all in on them in one turn. I haven't played too many games against such targets as I'm new to marines, but I have faced all of the above in multiples, bar the Wraightknight, and even with Grav, the trick is killing the above targets in one go as Grav is short ranged, if you don't kill them, they can run away or more likely, kick your crap in via shooting and assault.

And you still got to deal with the rest of their armies, my opponents so far at least, haven't left their big guys in the open to get Grav gunned to death, unless they intentionally were drawing fire, because to get the shot, you can end up exposing your marines out in the open.

I know Grav is really good, and maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I haven't found it a point and click solution myself.

**NorseSig**

Bryan01 wrote:
At least if some of the big fellas like Dreadknights, wraithknight, riptides, stormsurge could only move 6 standard, you wouldn't have to necessarily go all in on them in one turn. I haven't played too many games against such targets as I'm new to marines, but I have faced all of the above in multiples, bar the Wraightknight, and even with Grav, the trick is killing the above targets in one go as Grav is short ranged, if you don't kill them, they can run away or more likely, kick your crap in via shooting and assault.

And you still got to deal with the rest of their armies, my opponents so far at least, haven't left their big guys in the open to get Grav gunned to death, unless they intentionally were drawing fire, because to get the shot, you can end up exposing your marines out in the open.

I know Grav is really good, and maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I haven't found it a point and click solution myself.

I don't think it is the movement that is the issue myself. All the units you mentioned are extremely durable, with great firepower, for the most part great range, render most weapons outside of grav ineffective against them, can abuse cover rules, and have a really low (in some cases WAY too low) points cost for what they do. And you are absolutely right about grav. It is powerful, but it is not point and click, and it is relatively short range. I might actually see grav as an issue if marines could take it like eldar can take scattbikes. Even if marines could take it on every body it would still be extremely expensive to do so in an army that has to very carefully watch every point they spend.

**Bryan01**

It was funny to see a stormsurge take a Grav round, move 12, shoot and assault with those lovely stomps. The Dreadknights, fair enough, mobility is their trick, but a wraithknight and stormsurge are surprisenly mobile! You definitely want to at least severely hurt them, or due to Grav range, you can expect to get shot up/charged.

**Torquar**

I'd give it to everybody.

**Vankraken**

Torquar wrote:
I'd give it to everybody.

The Ork version would be the opposite with the weaker the armor the higher the chance to wound, it would be sorta like the bubblechucka except even worse

**Crazyterran**

We can nerf grav when we get rid of GCs and MCs out of standard 40k.

Until then...