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 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Made so they cannot ever be fired at Flyers, ap- with 6s as rending. Vehicles are unaffected period.

Welcome to balance you cheesy pieces of loyalist scum!

I guarantee that a vehicle could not handle having its collective mass amplified and have its mobility components escape intact.

Firstly, you cant guarantee anything because "Fiction"
Secondly if we're going by mass vs power of the grav field, do you honestly believe that some weenie pistol should be able to take down an entire frigate simply because "Ohh ahhh Amplified gravitational fields" I doubt it highly. Not only would the power needed to affect a massive Tank need to be astronomical, but no where do we see these plebian Timmy-Troopers running around with cold fusion generators small enough to even affect their gimpy little pea shooters.

if you want the claim the argument that perhaps the "Cannon" version of the grav weapons should be able to "Hurt" a vehicle, be my guest, but right now we're focusing on how brokenly stupid the rule is in and of itself being the absolute monstrosity that it is, being superb against anything and everything that isn't 6+ Orks.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Made so they cannot ever be fired at Flyers, ap- with 6s as rending. Vehicles are unaffected period.

Welcome to balance you cheesy pieces of loyalist scum!

I guarantee that a vehicle could not handle having its collective mass amplified and have its mobility components escape intact.

Firstly, you cant guarantee anything because "Fiction"
Secondly if we're going by mass vs power of the grav field, do you honestly believe that some weenie pistol should be able to take down an entire frigate simply because "Ohh ahhh Amplified gravitational fields" I doubt it highly. Not only would the power needed to affect a massive Tank need to be astronomical, but no where do we see these plebian Timmy-Troopers running around with cold fusion generators small enough to even affect their gimpy little pea shooters.

if you want the claim the argument that perhaps the "Cannon" version of the grav weapons should be able to "Hurt" a vehicle, be my guest, but right now we're focusing on how brokenly stupid the rule is in and of itself being the absolute monstrosity that it is, being superb against anything and everything that isn't 6+ Orks.

There's a reason I like the 30k variant because it scales accordingly. You go from the gun to the bombard. the gun can't scratch a marine, but the bombard erases everything

Honestly grav should have some kind of draw back or possible negative outcome like plasma does.

As far as I see it, there is no need to use any weapon other than grav.

 Konrax wrote:
Honestly grav should have some kind of draw back or possible negative outcome like plasma does.

As far as I see it, there is no need to use any weapon other than grav.

It depends on the meta. As I said before, Heavy Bolters are more useful than Grav-guns and Grav-Cannons in my meta. I have 4 models with grav weapons and I have never used their weapons as Grav.

I find it hilarious that when the Ectoplasma Cannons came out on the Forgefiend (Which we all agree is possibly the worst gun platform in the game for its awful cost if you take said cannons) The stupid things came with 24" range. Thats pretty terrible considering the thing is BS3 and and cost 200 points.

I dont know what kind of moron within the Codex department decided everything within the Chaos books or for that matter most things prior to New C:SM and onward needed a drawback, but this thing was more bad than it was good... And its the only thing that could take the useless Cannon. Mayb If our gakky little havoks could take them and they PERHAPS be on par with Loyalist Cannons with equal Range Id care to more about them existing... Maybe.. lol

Martel732 wrote:

Except devastators and meltas are now pretty bad in 7th. The vaunted triple melta ASM drop pod from BA has about a 50/50 of popping a Rhino. Really scary, that. Anti-tank is now about high ROF hp stripping, not quality shots

The whole hull point mechanic is such crap, it should never have been introduced.

If hull points are going to stay around vehicles need a lot more. If a Rhino had 6 or 7 then there would be much more emphasis on ap1 and one shot vehicle kills again.

I agree with many of the proposals on this thread. I'm advocating for why grav should be the way it is for the game right now. I'd love to tear everything down and build back up. But that seems quite unlikely.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd also argue that grav cents are perfectly fair if you take invisibility out of the game. They wreck a unit or two, and then you shoot THEM off the table. T5 2+ W2 no invuln isn't exactly hard to crack in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NOBODY thinks Gauss is too powerful.

I was about to say the same thing. Out of all the weapon special rules (i.e. Bladestorm, Grav, ext) Gauss is probably the worst....

It's better than the bolter special rules.

*slaps knee* Gosh darn, that's a good one.

No but really. Bolters aren't supposed to have special rules.

I think Gauss is piling on already horrible vehicle rules. So in that sense, it could be argued as too powerful. I'd rather have a Necron warrior over a marine any day of the week, myself.

This is really the point. No, Gauss is not uber powerful. It's not Grav. But it's on every freaking model, which also has RP. Just like JSJ, it's an awesome faction perk. And don't get me wrong, Imperium has great perks too, so I'm not whining here.

What I'm saying is that every faction should have unique, significant differentiators and grav just contributes to the pile that Astartes get. Is it really awesome as an offensive perk? Yes! There are also better. But Space Marines aren't supposed to be the most powerful offensive faction, either in cc, short range, or long range, and they have other non-offensive perks to balance that out. They're not an instawin against 2015+ factions, nor are they a lost cause, so why rock the boat on grav?

And yeah, I agree: We all know that invisibility is ridiculously powerful, and like you I think in is is the major contributor to the imbalance of grav cents is this imbalanced spell. But lots of factions can abuse it, and the solution isn't to nerf grav.

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Make grav-gun 18" assault 2, grav cannon 30" heavy 1 blast, but reduce grav-cannon w/amp cost by 15 pts. Glance on 4+ instead of immobilise on 6+.

I like this opions. But regular gravguns shouldn't glance on 4+. That's better than they are now even with reduced rof. Fine with grav cannons glancing on 5-s. It's gona be almost between 3-s and 4-s counting in re-rolls. Like haywire cannons. Not as good but working against other targets too.

Let's look at traditional special weapons like melta and plazma. Melta is good against vehicles, fine vs MC cause it will still do a couple of wounds but is too low rate of fire against infantry. Plazma is good against MC, fine vs infantry cause it still has decent rate of fire and ignores armor but is not very reliable against vehicles cause it's just s7 and doesn't have enough rate of fire to spam it out. See, this weapons have advantages and disadvantages that balance it out. What about grav...The problem with grav weapons in general that i see is that they are good vs most things that are good in the game. So, good all around. And what grav can't deal with, melts to bolter fire and krak granades. The mechanics itself might be fine, however rate of fire is what spoils it. Rate of fire was supposed to be balanced out by salvo. And it does, in fact, happen when you look at devs and tactical marines. But salvo is basically assault for bikes and centurions, you know, things that are too good in this edition. That's what breaks it really. And immobilized against vehicles. That's so very wrong. I don't care about fluffy explanations - we all know that fluff goes both ways. It is just rediculous to get a battlewagon or a landraider getting immobilized with a couple shots from an all-round good weapon. Yep, i can cope with getting blown up with melta - that's what it is supposed to do good. Fine with it. But grav melting good infantry and mc better than plazma, stopping vehicles more reliably than melta...no. It shouldn't be this way.

So, here are the solutions:
Reduce rate of fire and remove immobilized against vehicles.

What i mean is that If gravguns get reduced to assault 2 or even rapid fire and grav-cannons to assault 3 or small blasts + better glances + cost reduction like Sonic suggests, it's going to be reasonable. Melta and plazma are competing again. Grav takes a place of a specific weapon that's still gona work vs most things but not so extraordinarily good that it surpasses all other weapons. Just like it's supposed to be.

Martel732 wrote:
CSM are still better than BA because of better FW support.

For the upteenth time, almost all the good Chaos units from Forge World are either whole other armies to use as allies or Loyalist FW tanks in spikes that BA also get.

And you have Gravguns (that can be taken on relentless platforms no less).

OT...

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Reduce the rate of fire of all Grav weapons besides the Pistol, while also giving them another special rule that allows them to deal more damage to high-toughness (7+) targets while also fixing the Riptide, WK and other problem MCs/GMCs. (And no Martel not all MCs or GMSc are problem units. Do you ever see people complain about any of the non-flying Chaos, Tyranid, DE MCs being OP? Any complaints about the Wraithlord? Any at all about the Tyranids GMCs? Didn't think so.)

Reduce ROF, make amps an upgrade.

Maybe make it that grav wounds by rolling under the majority toughness of the unit, with 6's always failing.

I don't know, just spitballing.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
CSM are still better than BA because of better FW support.

For the upteenth time, almost all the good Chaos units from Forge World are either whole other armies to use as allies or Loyalist FW tanks in spikes that BA also get.

And you have Gravguns (that can be taken on relentless platforms no less).

OT...

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Reduce the rate of fire of all Grav weapons besides the Pistol, while also giving them another special rule that allows them to deal more damage to high-toughness (7+) targets while also fixing the Riptide, WK and other problem MCs/GMCs. (And no Martel not all MCs or GMSc are problem units. Do you ever see people complain about any of the non-flying Chaos, Tyranid, DE MCs being OP? Any complaints about the Wraithlord? Any at all about the Tyranids GMCs? Didn't think so.)

BA don't get all the loyalist stuff. Because of a fluff hissy fit by the Mechanicum. And standard grav guns on bikers that have no fancy Ravenwing rules aren't that great. The Eldar just gun them down more often than not. The grav just puts a target on their heads.

MCs and GMCs are not getting fixed. In fact, they've only gotten better as time goes on. GMCs weren't even a thing until recently. GW is making grav MORE necessary, not less. And now we have the crazy OP Stormsurge. From someone who has ZERO MCs in their codex, they're pretty damn broken in general. Oh, it's also a codex that has precious few ways to engage them before they step on all my expensive useless ass infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd also argue that grav cents are perfectly fair if you take invisibility out of the game. They wreck a unit or two, and then you shoot THEM off the table. T5 2+ W2 no invuln isn't exactly hard to crack in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NOBODY thinks Gauss is too powerful.

I was about to say the same thing. Out of all the weapon special rules (i.e. Bladestorm, Grav, ext) Gauss is probably the worst....

It's better than the bolter special rules.

*slaps knee* Gosh darn, that's a good one.

No but really. Bolters aren't supposed to have special rules.

I think Gauss is piling on already horrible vehicle rules. So in that sense, it could be argued as too powerful. I'd rather have a Necron warrior over a marine any day of the week, myself.

This is really the point. No, Gauss is not uber powerful. It's not Grav. But it's on every freaking model, which also has RP. Just like JSJ, it's an awesome faction perk. And don't get me wrong, Imperium has great perks too, so I'm not whining here.

What I'm saying is that every faction should have unique, significant differentiators and grav just contributes to the pile that Astartes get. Is it really awesome as an offensive perk? Yes! There are also better. But Space Marines aren't supposed to be the most powerful offensive faction, either in cc, short range, or long range, and they have other non-offensive perks to balance that out. They're not an instawin against 2015+ factions, nor are they a lost cause, so why rock the boat on grav?

And yeah, I agree: We all know that invisibility is ridiculously powerful, and like you I think in is is the major contributor to the imbalance of grav cents is this imbalanced spell. But lots of factions can abuse it, and the solution isn't to nerf grav.

I'm not seeing the great BA perks. ATSKNF is useless in a game of being tabled by scatterlasers.

What if against vehicles, grav weapons merely immobilized on a 4+ and got a weapon destroyed result on a 6+ but does so without removing hullpoints?

 King Pariah wrote:
What if against vehicles, grav weapons merely immobilized on a 4+ and got a weapon destroyed result on a 6+ but does so without removing hullpoints?

That would be even worse then 3, 4s and a vehicle is destroyed and with amps can reroll that. It should just be a 6 glances.

Just tossing 2 cents here...

The real reason Grav is bad for the game is because it's so swingy. Against certain armies, Grav is devastating, with the ability to just delete units. These are other Marine armies, Terminator armies, MC and GMC-heavy armies, and most biker armies. Besides being a sizeable mix, it's also a close match to the mix of top-tier armies out there.

But there are lots of armies against which Grav isn't very good! Grav is pretty terrible against Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Orks, and Knights, and not particularly great (though not terrible) against Necrons either. The last thing a Grav player wants to fight is a Green Tide. Unfortunately, of this list, only the Knights are considered top-tier, and the Necrons are a "you must be this tall to play against competitive lists" army.

So if you rely too heavily on grav, you just demolish some forces, but do pretty terribly against others. While this is fine for a competitive environment, it really hurts casual games. Most people that like playing casual games enjoy a game where their decisions matter. They don't need to win, they need to have a game that doesn't feel like it's over right away. Grav-weapons push things far away from this. Either they're terribly effective and the game feels like it's over right away, or they're terribly non-effective and the game feels like it's over right away. Either way, that's not fun.

 Yarium wrote:

But there are lots of armies against which Grav isn't very good! Grav is pretty terrible against Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Orks, and Knights, and not particularly great (though not terrible) against Necrons either.

Not sure about some of those.

e.g. whilst Dark Eldar usually have poor saves, they have fast transports that rely on mobility and Jinking for defence - so a single 6 from a Grav weapon cripples them utterly (regardless of whether they survive). And, even against the stuff with 5+ saves, Grav has enough shots and rerolls that it's hardly weak against them. Then you have stuff like the Corpsethief Claw and Dark Artisan - which Grav will simply shred.

Orks... depends what they use, really. Grav isn't good against normal ork boys, but what about 'Ard boys, bikers, mega armoured Nobz/Warbosses etc.? Not to mention that Grav can cripple their transports - especially Battlewagons - much like the DE ones.

Necrons - really? Even if Grav doesn't ignore Necro-no-pain, it still ignores their toughness and armour saves.


Here's the thing, it's not just about whether Grav is OP vs every race - it's also about whether it's ever worse than the alternatives. e.g. even if Grav isn't idea against ork boys, would a single lascannon shot be better than 5 Grav Cannon shots? Same goes for shooting Necrons, DE etc. In virtually every case, Grav Cannons will be better through sheer weight of shots. The only exceptions are going to be units with no armour save at all or with immunity to Immobilised (IKs, as you say). And, that's not counting all the situations where Grav Cannons are vastly better than any alternatives.

Grav weapons do not need a nerf, it's just that factions that should have access to them (CSM, Guard, SoB, etc.) don't have them. Any nerf to grav is a huge indirect buff to the WK, which is the last unit that needs it.

Pretty much the only army in the entire game that doesn't care much about Grav are Daemons... And even then, DP's and the new Str.D 'Thirster still run and hide from it due to their typical 3+ saves.

One army out of what, 14-15+ that overall laughs at Grav is pretty damning about just how badly OP the weapon is. What I find even more hilarious, is how Loyalists defend it as being their only option vs. pretty much the entire game, yet Chaos players still get called out for bringing even a single Helldrake.

Pot, meet Kettle.

Why is it that all suggestions to also nerf the WK get ignored?

Experiment 626 wrote:
Pretty much the only army in the entire game that doesn't care much about Grav are Daemons... And even then, DP's and the new Str.D 'Thirster still run and hide from it due to their typical 3+ saves.

One army out of what, 14-15+ that overall laughs at Grav is pretty damning about just how badly OP the weapon is. What I find even more hilarious, is how Loyalists defend it as being their only option vs. pretty much the entire game, yet Chaos players still get called out for bringing even a single Helldrake.

Pot, meet Kettle.

Who is calling out CSM for helldrakes? They are largely ignorable now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Why is it that all suggestions to also nerf the WK get ignored?

Because that codex was recently printed and GW is buffing MCs and GMCs at every turn. I'd love to see it nerfed into the ground, but try to get people to agree to that. MCs have no downsides AT ALL and I don't see that changing.

" pretty much the entire game"

Just the parts of the game that get spammed because they are undercosted. Like WK. Arms races are real in both real life and gaming.

I think a good fix would be to make Grav glance on 6s and wound on the reverse of the S7 Damage Table (make it the anti-plasma if you will). So it will be effective against MCs and other high toughness units but relatively bad against lower T foes.

So wounding T10 on a 2+, but T1 on a 6+

So essentially against Terminators it would be S4 AP2, but against a Riptide it is the equivalent of S8 AP2.

As others have said, unless you make other changes to MC/GMC getting rid of grav just boosts some units that are already held to be very powerful even more so.

Breng77 wrote:
I think a good fix would be to make Grav glance on 6s and wound on the reverse of the S7 Damage Table (make it the anti-plasma if you will). So it will be effective against MCs and other high toughness units but relatively bad against lower T foes.

So wounding T10 on a 2+, but T1 on a 6+

So essentially against Terminators it would be S4 AP2, but against a Riptide it is the equivalent of S8 AP2.

An inverted to wound curve, as it is less effective the smaller a target's mas - I like it. I know toughness doesn't always equate to mass, but that's a great balancing solution all the same.

Exactly, it would also make Grav more effective against tougher models in races that don't rely as much on armor (Greater Daemons for example). Also in game I feel like it is a closer relation ship between toughness and size than armor and size. I think if you look at models most things T5 and greater are larger models (at least marine sized, most are monsterous creatures and the like).

It would still make it an effective weapon against Marines with wounding on 4s at Ap2, and the Grav amp might still need some fixing (as it would still wound on 75% of hits). But overall I think that the toughness solution would make it still the best anti-mc weapon, but perhaps not the best at taking out heavy infantry and vehicles as well (I considered making it just an auto stun on a 6 so it does no damage to the vehicle itself, as vehicles need a boost)

Some sort of inverse wounding or wounding based on number of wounds might not be perfect, but it's a lot saner than the current situation, that's for sure.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Pretty much the only army in the entire game that doesn't care much about Grav are Daemons... And even then, DP's and the new Str.D 'Thirster still run and hide from it due to their typical 3+ saves.

One army out of what, 14-15+ that overall laughs at Grav is pretty damning about just how badly OP the weapon is. What I find even more hilarious, is how Loyalists defend it as being their only option vs. pretty much the entire game, yet Chaos players still get called out for bringing even a single Helldrake.

Pot, meet Kettle.

What about horde armies like guard and orks? I've been out of 40k since 5th and am trying to run dark eldar. I don't think they fear grav mostly but the sad bit is the armies that don't fear grav are probably not as feared in the first place. Somehow I don't think anybody seriously thinks to themselves "**** it! How to I beat Dark Eldar?! X is just too strong!"

-----

Perhaps Grav shouldn't hurt gigantic creatures and such as well as it currently does. I mean poisoned weapons don't. You'd think an incredibly massive unit would be harder for a grav weapon to hurt maybe. I mean I wouldn't mind the idea of enhanced grav weapons being similar to Fleshbane weapons but it would help fix things I think.

I'm not entirely sure grav weapons are as bad as they could be but perhaps toughness or strength should help negate the effect of the to wound bit on armor. One possible method would be take the armor being 2+ (5 armor for the 2+ armor save vs t 4 meaning it wounds on a 3+ and 4 armor for the 3+ armor save vs t 4 meaning it wounds on a 4+). It can still go through armor as it already does but it would at least wound certain dudes less. Then you take monsters and it probably only wounds most of them on a 6+. At least at this point plasma, lascannons, rockets and similar would still have a purpose.

The main thing is the few things that grav is not good at, marines can usually handle with bolters or a TFC.

Or Thunderfire Cannons.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Pretty much the only army in the entire game that doesn't care much about Grav are Daemons... And even then, DP's and the new Str.D 'Thirster still run and hide from it due to their typical 3+ saves.

One army out of what, 14-15+ that overall laughs at Grav is pretty damning about just how badly OP the weapon is. What I find even more hilarious, is how Loyalists defend it as being their only option vs. pretty much the entire game, yet Chaos players still get called out for bringing even a single Helldrake.

Pot, meet Kettle.

What about horde armies like guard and orks? I've been out of 40k since 5th and am trying to run dark eldar. I don't think they fear grav mostly but the sad bit is the armies that don't fear grav are probably not as feared in the first place. Somehow I don't think anybody seriously thinks to themselves "**** it! How to I beat Dark Eldar?! X is just too strong!"

-----

Perhaps Grav shouldn't hurt gigantic creatures and such as well as it currently does. I mean poisoned weapons don't. You'd think an incredibly massive unit would be harder for a grav weapon to hurt maybe. I mean I wouldn't mind the idea of enhanced grav weapons being similar to Fleshbane weapons but it would help fix things I think.

I'm not entirely sure grav weapons are as bad as they could be but perhaps toughness or strength should help negate the effect of the to wound bit on armor. One possible method would be take the armor being 2+ (5 armor for the 2+ armor save vs t 4 meaning it wounds on a 3+ and 4 armor for the 3+ armor save vs t 4 meaning it wounds on a 4+). It can still go through armor as it already does but it would at least wound certain dudes less. Then you take monsters and it probably only wounds most of them on a 6+. At least at this point plasma, lascannons, rockets and similar would still have a purpose.

Except that the principle behind Grav is that the bigger & weightier the target is, the harsher the grav field affects them. So wounding MC's much easer than basic infantry grunts makes perfect sense.
The problem is that it's a huge rate of fire, plus ap2, and smoke's the scariest things in the game with complete ease.

Dark Eldar don't like it much either, simply because of how it can ruthlessly crush all their boats with auto-immobilised results. Orks are likewise affected, plus they've got some heavier units such as Meganobz, 4+ save Nob bikers, etc...

Really, it's only Daemons who laugh at Grav...
Everything we have is at worst a 5++, and between Psychic powers + built-in abilities/wargear we can easily boost those invulns.
Only a very few models can even take a 3+ save - and there's no such thing as a 2+ save in the army. Characters rolling up a 3+ save can simply default it away when faced with mass Grav.
Our troops are cheap as chips, and our scads of multi-wound stuff can't be drowned by even re-rolling to wound cannons before it starts beating face in combat.
The only vehicle we have that's typically fielded typically comes with either a torrent type template or a long ranged battle cannon shot. (and Nurgle Grinder's typically get 2+ cover saves to boot!)

So 1 entire army out of how many doesn't give a rat's fart about the no-brainer weapon option for Vanillas/DA's? That's pretty awful balance in my book.