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Kings of War is also in the weird situation of basically needing no support from Mantic to be playable. It's incredibly atypical for a miniatures game to officially be that open to using other company's figures instead of the first party ones. I'm not complaining and my KOW armies are a mix of Mantic and other stuff, but it means that if Mantic stopped making KOW figures tomorrow the game it would still be surprisingly easy to build armies for it. Most games like that are from companies that make just rulebooks, no figures.

That's true, and speaks to the unique situation that KoW have in regards to their timeline in relation to the origin of the game's rules, Mantic itself as a counts-as-WHFB company, and also the rather unique, post-AoS situation that now KoW finds itself in.

Still, while a series of fortuitous timings have allowed KoW to get to the point where it is now, if the actual rules weren't of quality, we might all be playing God of Battles or... I dunno what other options we have in that particular sub-genre?

I think this KS can make or break Mantic. Seriously, as you said they've had a series of good events happen with timing that has made their system accessible to a huge audience, but they have made so many poor/ failed decisions in the same time. This KS is getting them notariaty in the non gaming circles, but what they've shown is a poor value up front and they've lost a golden opportunity with it. GW looks like they might actually be changing directions with this new CEO, and FW just knocked it out of the park with what we've seen from the weekender, so the main place they've been stealing the customer base from is getting stronger. Mantic needs to act quickly or lose the foothold they had.

A good point. I'm not likely to back this Mantic KS, am considering getting a refund on the WarPath one, and in the past couple of weeks I've bought 5x GW "Start Collecting" army sets and two unit boxes. I never would have guessed that as a situation I'd be in 12 months or 2 years ago.

 CptJake wrote:
I'm still mystified as to why they chose the "I'm About To Die" pose for a few. How worthless from a skirmish game perspective to have one of the few figures in your gang posed like that.

Are you talking about "Liam"? I think that was the only up-close facial expression he had in the entire comic book series! He doesn't even meet our heroes -- he dies in two panels, as he's pushed out of a door by his own group to "distract" some zombies!

Of course, he doesn't get a name in the comic, but Scavenger 1 doesn't quite have that ring to it.



As for Donna, I think that sculpt's on the tame side. Warning: You've been warned.

 Azazelx wrote:
That's true, and speaks to the unique situation that KoW have in regards to their timeline in relation to the origin of the game's rules, Mantic itself as a counts-as-WHFB company, and also the rather unique, post-AoS situation that now KoW finds itself in.

Still, while a series of fortuitous timings have allowed KoW to get to the point where it is now, if the actual rules weren't of quality, we might all be playing God of Battles or... I dunno what other options we have in that particular sub-genre?

Yeah, Kings of War is in a Pathfinder-esque position of "the new edition of game A changed things dramatically, here's game B that does things very much like the old A". It even has the similarity of KOW being written by a former GW writer like how the Pathfinder people used to do official D&D magazines.

Going back to The Walking Dead, a thought I just had was: couldn't you repurpose the Mars Attacks mats pretty easily for this game? Basically, just ignore the grid and you should be good.

Well, I imagine that you could use any mats since TWD uses range rulers.

Yeah, but the Mars Attacks ones seem relevant to mention since they share the urban street environment.

Yep, although they're less detailed and not in the style of the comics (which might actually make them more generically useful!). If they're going out of license this year, they also might end up on clearance.

Wave 2 shipping has me hesitating on the mats, the actual price is $40 + shipping because shipping is charged separately for each wave this time.

Deadzone and Mars Attacks mats retailed at £15/ $25 each for a larger size, or $50 for 2.

I will probably just use my Mars Attacks mat and terrain, that KS was an amazing deal, I literally got the boxed game and bonus minis (68 minis + terrain) for $15 then spent the pledge credit on discount battlezones.

I notice that Mantic is doing the "Worth over $175 RRP" thing on the pledge level graphics, I remember the first KoW KS where I was pointing out "worth over $700" on the $225 pledge. Good old days.

This will have to be worth $400+ RRP for it to match the level of other Mantic Kickstarters (since the RRP on this one is brutally high at $20 for 3 minis), I'm sure it'll get there, it'll just take a while to get past the slower start.

I'm hoping they can get a couple more expansions into the base pledge by the time this finishes, Herschel's farm and the prison would be great.

Still only at 31 minis, the next stretch goal will take that up to 37, but it'll still need at least 80 minis at KS finish to be considered good value, especially with paper mats only, and limited 3D terrain, the mini count can't be skimped on. Charged shipping should also allow them some extra room to be generous.

I'm sure we'll get there. The pledge total has actually been really solid, staying above $10k every day without fail, that's pretty consistent performance a week into a KS, if it drops that's when they'll probably announce another expansion or add-on.

I'm not sure how much Mantic are having to pay for the license. In terms of value for money for what we get, I'm certainly wavering with my EB pledge.

In comparison, the Zombicide 3 kickstarter I was involved with, brought in;

$150 Pledge on Z3 got you (approx):
60 individual character sculpts (mix of survivors and zombivors)
172 Zombies (25+ different sculpts)
300 cards
12 double sided superthick card tiles


$125 Pledge on TWD gets you (approx)
15 individual character sculpts
16 Zombies (10 different sculpts?)
30 or so cards
1 paper mat

In terms of physical content, TWD contains about one tenth of the contents of Z3, although Z3 was $25 more. Just compare the coloured text.
I don't know what the Dungeon Saga figures were like, so can''t comment on quality, but the Zombicide ones look pretty good and paint up nicely.

eg. A quick search on Dakka's gallery found stuff like;

http://images.dakkadakka.com/s/i/gallery/img/2012/12/3/437535_md.jpg

To be fair, TWD also gives you 10 plastic loot markers and 6 plastic barricades.

And a Spiffy KS Exclusive Badge!

That badge is gonna be a HUGE money maker on Ebay! You'll probably make enough selling it to TWD fans that it will pay for your pledge and all future expansions and help put your kid through college too!

(that was sarcasm...)

Had a look at the figures - they all appear a bit well Chubby?

not grabbing me when I compare to Zombicide or indeed various other Kickstarters.

Hoping for at least a good Andrea with Sniper Rifle sculpt but given the game matt size guess thats unlikely?

While I agree that even Zombicides starting pledge was a better deal than TWDAOW KS currently is, it is probably not fair to compare what you got when they had $2,849,064 in funding and stretch goals after 30 days to TWDAOW's current $259,738 after a week. It's no where near a fair comparison.

I'm sure Mantic would through tons of free swag at us if they got close to 3 Million in support.

 adamsouza wrote:
While I agree that even Zombicides starting pledge was a better deal than TWDAOW KS currently is, it is probably not fair to compare what you got when they had $2,849,064 in funding and stretch goals after 30 days to TWDAOW's current $259,738 after a week. It's no where near a fair comparison.

I'm sure Mantic would through tons of free swag at us if they got close to 3 Million in support.

Yes, I'm sure they would give us plenty of "Quality" dice bags .
Even a week into the Zombicide KS there was already more given to the backers than what this will "give". I don't even believe they have reached the threshold of what they expect to give out for the base pledge yet. Shieldwolf games gave up on their KS even though it had made it's funding goal, and I think I'd almost want Mantic to do the same and come back with a realistic start over. Otherwise I think they will have to call the factory and say "Okay we need to take out these stretch goals out of all those wave 1 packages we have before we ship them because we didn't reach the mark. "

Re-adjusted projected totals here look to have this one ending up between $700K to $850K*.

*My less than scientific projection

 Theophony wrote:

Even a week into the Zombicide KS there was already more given to the backers than what this will "give". I don't even believe they have reached the threshold of what they expect to give out for the base pledge yet.

My point was it's still an Apples and Oranges comparison, even if there are 10 times as many oranges.

It's obvious they are benchmarking themsesleves against games like 40K, Warmachine, and Malefaux and not boardgames like Zombicide, Zombie 15. or Zombies!!!

Do I think the WDAOW starter set should have inclded TWICE as many miniatures, without stretch goals ? YES.

Do I think Zombicide offered greater value for the dollar ? YES

I'm backing this because I'm a Walking Dead fan and I want Walking Dead Minaitures. If the game isn't fraking Amazing, they'll likely see the gaming table as Zombicide Survivors, or just sit on a shelf, looking pretty.

Price wise though there is simply no point in comparing the two games. Outside of Zombicide's Artist packs, and Kickstarter exclusive survivors, the average zombicide figure costs about $1, and MANTIC will never be able to touch that price point, on a licensed property.

If Mantic is comparing itself to Zombicide at all, it's using the $10 a survivor price model.

 Alpharius wrote:
Re-adjusted projected totals here look to have this one ending up between $700K to $850K*.

*My less than scientific projection

Seriously?
I'd be surprised if it broke the half million mark.

Not only did zombicide season 3 come with over 200 high quality (better than what mantic is showing) sculpts, it also came with sculpted barricades too! (Someone mentioned that twd came with barricades...) I own mars attack with every resin car and their terrain packs. They are poorly done with mold lines, bubbles, miscast pieces, wtc. The zombicide barricades were plastic, perfect, no complaints here!

Zombicide was cheaper too. Twd fans are backing but I think the overall gaming community is sitting this one out. Not a good deal at all right now (ha! Ninja turtles game is doing far better and I'm sure it will be a far worse game). It may be an apples and oranges comparison (although they are both coop, zombie based, etc... this is just a rip off of zombicide), but in a competitive gaming industry, companies have to be competative. Look at the gak gw gets for its pricing, but they have better value than mantic. I'm betting if cmon had this license, it would cost 15-20 percent more than zombicide, but would have the same great quality, great sculpts, and gameplay we have come to expect from them. This cost more for worse minis, far less of everything, etc. Remember the solo play mars attack game? Solo dungeon saga? Remember how that all turned out?

Mantic, please make the sculpts look better (they all look chunky and fat), give us at least 1 1/2 miniature per dollar pledged -zombicide, conan, etc), and show us some gameplay videos. We all know there is an end rush, but there is also an end pledge dropout period too. This will never hit a million and may not reach $600,000 without more incentive.

Todays top serious question from the KS comments -

I know Walking Dead is primarily a zombie franchise, but could we get an expansion that includes werewolves of Frankensteins?

The first expansion addon should be hitting next Tuesday or Wednesday.

That is why I stopped participating in KS comments...


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bound for glory wrote:
Really?

Well, not that specific thing, but it is representitive of the level of conversation typically present in KS comments and it does not appeal to me.

 adamsouza wrote:
I'm backing this because I'm a Walking Dead fan and I want Walking Dead Minaitures.

Big chunky ones.

Oh, wait. What's happening is called "monopolistic competition". That's when a product has both "monopoly" and "competitive" elements. Frex, the "competitive" element of TWD is that it's a zombie miniature game. That means, for those who only see it as such a game, it's competing against Zombicide and any number of other zombie games, even moreso if you're just looking at it as a miniatures game or source of miniatures. The "monopoly" part, of course, is that it's the *only* TWD miniatures game on the market, so, like yourself, if you're there for TWD miniatures, you're *not* going to consider other games as alternatives. It's not a "perfect monopoly" in that you will pay any price for it (eg. your water bill), or "pure competition" in that the product is identical to another product (eg. supermarket eggs). Note that this is closer to the *economic* definition of monopoly and competition, not the hyperbolic one.

It is not really the 'only source of TWD' minis, it is the only 'official licensed' source. Studio Miniatures, Hasslefree and probably other companies have TWD figures.

The Hasslefree ones are EXCELLENT.

Watching the daily totals on this , Maybe a retitle "The Crawling dead" Projection high of $591k and high end of trending puts it below $1M. I think they need some of those $7,500 sculpt me as a zombie pledges to sell.

 Theophony wrote:
Watching the daily totals on this , Maybe a retitle "The Crawling dead" Projection high of $591k and high end of trending puts it below $1M. I think they need some of those $7,500 sculpt me as a zombie pledges to sell.

I can't see people paying for something like that in a product that Mantic will likely forget existed inside of a year. No gameplay videos or rules and people still put in for $260k; that's a substantial showing of goodwill if you ask me but, in my opinion, there is a very tiny market for "give us your money and we'll eventually show you the rules for the game." You might see an uptick in pledges but TMNT is blowing this one out of the water right now and it has to have some effect on the number of backers.

Another issue is the whole pre-kickstarter talk about no add-ons, simple one-pledge that includes everything funded by the kickstarter and now we're seeing add-ons that will have separate charges for shipping. Really, there is literally no reason to back this KS unless you have some desire to back every Mantic kickstarter; this will likely be cheaper at retail and include free postage....but you'll still have to deal with shoddy Mantic box-packing.

 CptJake wrote:
It is not really the 'only source of TWD' minis, it is the only 'official licensed' source. Studio Miniatures, Hasslefree and probably other companies have TWD figures.

Yeah, true. That's why I said "miniatures game", as opposed to "miniatures".

That being said, unlicensed miniatures don't include the range of officially licensed TWD miniatures, such as Scavenger 1, Scavenger 2, Scavenger 3, that guy who had only two lines on the first page of the comic series -- you know, the miniatures that are a *must* for any TWD miniatures fan...

ced1106 wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
It is not really the 'only source of TWD' minis, it is the only 'official licensed' source. Studio Miniatures, Hasslefree and probably other companies have TWD figures.

Yeah, true. That's why I said "miniatures game", as opposed to "miniatures".

Good point, I missed 'game' when I read your post.


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 agnosto wrote:


Another issue is the whole pre-kickstarter talk about no add-ons, simple one-pledge that includes everything funded by the kickstarter and now we're seeing add-ons that will have separate charges for shipping. Really, there is literally no reason to back this KS unless you have some desire to back every Mantic kickstarter; this will likely be cheaper at retail and include free postage....but you'll still have to deal with shoddy Mantic box-packing.

I'm loving how folks point out that Mantic are 'valuing' those mats at $30 each and therefore the add on is a Great Deal get bent out of shape when you remind them that you need to add postage, and you can currently get the Mars Attacks mats at about $20 each, often including shipping, and those are bigger. But no, really, these TWD mats are totally worth $30 each!

And extra loot markers? I guess as scatter terrain they are okay, but you get the 10 you need to replace the cardboard tokens in your pledge already.

Another thing I've tried to get Mantic to address is scalability. If they envision playing this on a 2ft x 2ft square (or 20 inch x 20 inch square) and design the scenarios, movement rates and weapon ranges around that, how does it scale to a 4ft x 4ft or a 6ft x 4ft table? Will missions me all out of balance? 'Gather x loot in y turns' may be impossible on a bigger board for example. I know the rules will eventually be shown to us, as will a video, but I suspect the answer to this won't be too evident in the video and the rules are not likely to address it either.

I like this theme but we have a lot of miniatures and other stuff to use them in our tables. Do I need interested in this project if we use 28mm miniatures?

This is just pure speculation, but I'd imagine that the story-based scenario play included in the rulebook/expansion books:

1) Is the main advertised way of playing the game.
2) Requires that the games are played out within the specified 2x2 area.

Playing it within larger custom areas is going to fall under a more loosely-specified skirmish-type mode.

So e.g. "Defend the Greene Family Farm's Perimeter" would tell you to arrange the card scenery in a certain way to form fencing in this zone, a couple of barricades and a barn, deploy each group in a particular place (with specified models that can be swapped out for equivalent points values if desired) and some specific special rules.

Whereas e.g. the "Hold the Line" skirmish scenario specifies that you need to delineate a section of the board 1/3 of its length, deployment zones, defender must be no more than 2/3rd of attacker's points value, 2 loot counters per 100 points etc. etc.

I'm largely basing this off how Mars Attacks was handled, though!


I actually don't much care about the mat size, if the play area size is thoughtfully tailored to the game. I don't think the cost for the pack is especially high (although will be much better with cars), and I'm glad that something fundamentally not required isn't contributing to shipping costs of the main pledge. Good lord, Deadzone must have eaten them alive!