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nareik wrote:
Chaos pay for their delivery, but codex marines get free postage and packaging!

^---- basically this. That and I'm also one of those people who thinks you should have everything you'll need in one book rather than carry around a small library just to play your army (coughnidscough)

DaPino wrote:
Khabrys are even worse in that respect since there's quite literally nothing in the CSM codex worth putting in there while they cost you about a land raider's worth of points. The only redeeming quality it has is that formation that allows its berserkers to charge on the turn it arrives.

It doesn't actually do that though.

Yeah, it does.

DaPino wrote:
Okay, let's make something clear. When people say CSM don't have delivery, they are actually saying CSM don't have delivery that's worth bringing.

Dreadclaws are glorified drop pods without internal guidance system for which you pay a premium price (trice the cost of a regular droppod). Khabrys are even worse in that respect since there's quite literally nothing in the CSM codex worth putting in there while they cost you about a land raider's worth of points. The only redeeming quality it has is that formation that allows its berserkers to charge on the turn it arrives.

Have you ever used them? I have and they work just fine for me.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Okay, let's make something clear. When people say CSM don't have delivery, they are actually saying CSM don't have delivery that's worth bringing.

Dreadclaws are glorified drop pods without internal guidance system for which you pay a premium price (trice the cost of a regular droppod). Khabrys are even worse in that respect since there's quite literally nothing in the CSM codex worth putting in there while they cost you about a land raider's worth of points. The only redeeming quality it has is that formation that allows its berserkers to charge on the turn it arrives.

Have you ever used them? I have and they work just fine for me.

Oh don't get me wrong, they do work. I have a dreadclaw and use it regularly. However, the fact remains that it's inferior to a regular drop pod in its use as a delivery and it costs trice the price.
There's a big difference between "it doesn't work" (which I'm not claiming) and "other armies get stuff that's infinitely better for 1/3rd of the price".

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Yeah, it does.

Not according to the rules they wrote. Did they intend this? Who knows? Either:

1) They intended the rule to allow assault from Deep Strike but wrote the rule incorrectly, or
2) They intended the rule to allow assault from a vehicle, wrote it correctly, but forgot that the Kharybdis is already an Assault Vehicle and thus the rule is redundant.

So either 1) they're incompetent or 2) they don't care and they're incompetent. Since this is Chaos we're talking about I'm assuming 2).

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
We already have to fork over the "Chaos Tax" just to build our basic army.

Victimising bull. What's the "Chaos Tax"? I mean, really. What is it? I see it moaned about all the time, but everybody else clearly knows exactly what it is, so its never explained.

Gladius Strike Force. As I mentioned earlier, at 1650 pt a SM army can take 350 points worth of transports.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
We already have to fork over the "Chaos Tax" just to build our basic army.

Victimising bull. What's the "Chaos Tax"? I mean, really. What is it? I see it moaned about all the time, but everybody else clearly knows exactly what it is, so its never explained.

Gladius Strike Force. As I mentioned earlier, at 1650 pt a SM army can take 350 points worth of transports.

Actually, I was referring more to how we get to buy a bunch of Imperial kits, and/or have to fork over for FW upgrade packs, on top of our basic grunts just to build playable units.

Consider for example a staple choice of 5 Havocs w/4x Autocannons, which we can:
1. Buy 4 Havoc sets for $200 because they're ancient Finecrap and only come with an unplayable 1/each weapon per box. (and no Champion options to boot!)

2. Buy a basic Chaos Marine kit + Space Marine Devastators + plastic tubing and convert 2 from the Dev kit's Heavy bolters

3. Buy a basic Chaos Marine kit + FW Autocannon upgrade pack.

Hence, having to pay the "Chaos Tax"

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Yeah, it does.

Not according to the rules they wrote. Did they intend this? Who knows? Either:

1) They intended the rule to allow assault from Deep Strike but wrote the rule incorrectly, or
2) They intended the rule to allow assault from a vehicle, wrote it correctly, but forgot that the Kharybdis is already an Assault Vehicle and thus the rule is redundant.

So either 1) they're incompetent or 2) they don't care and they're incompetent. Since this is Chaos we're talking about I'm assuming 2).

Okay then how do you explain this which is crystal clear...

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2016/01/hungry-for-blood.html?m=1

@ dapino
Dreadclaw is vastly superior to a drop pod so of course it costs more points.

Is it 3x superior?
Not really.

Easily more than 2x .

I would drop the easily, but that's my opinion of course.
Losing the guidance system and launcher makes it slightly better. Maybe 1.5x

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Yeah, it does.

Not according to the rules they wrote. Did they intend this? Who knows? Either:

1) They intended the rule to allow assault from Deep Strike but wrote the rule incorrectly, or
2) They intended the rule to allow assault from a vehicle, wrote it correctly, but forgot that the Kharybdis is already an Assault Vehicle and thus the rule is redundant.

So either 1) they're incompetent or 2) they don't care and they're incompetent. Since this is Chaos we're talking about I'm assuming 2).

Okay then how do you explain this which is crystal clear...

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2016/01/hungry-for-blood.html?m=1

In general you cannot charge on the same turn you disembark from a transport. This specific rule overrides that general restriction.

In general you cannot charge on the same turn you arrive from Deep Strike. This specific rule doesn't say anything that overrides that general restriction.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Yeah, it does.

Not according to the rules they wrote. Did they intend this? Who knows? Either:

1) They intended the rule to allow assault from Deep Strike but wrote the rule incorrectly, or
2) They intended the rule to allow assault from a vehicle, wrote it correctly, but forgot that the Kharybdis is already an Assault Vehicle and thus the rule is redundant.

So either 1) they're incompetent or 2) they don't care and they're incompetent. Since this is Chaos we're talking about I'm assuming 2).

Okay then how do you explain this which is crystal clear...

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2016/01/hungry-for-blood.html?m=1

In general you cannot charge on the same turn you disembark from a transport. This specific rule overrides that general restriction.

In general you cannot charge on the same turn you arrive from Deep Strike. This specific rule doesn't say anything that overrides that general restriction.

Yeah, it's the same case as a reserve Land Raider the vehicle allows you to assault the same turn you disembark but since you entered from reserves that turn you are not allowed to.

The Assault Claw is an Assault Vehicle in the first place, no? It already gave such permission to charge after disembarking in the first place. Therefore, that clause clearly exists to override the restrictions from coming from reserves, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Assault Claw is an Assault Vehicle in the first place, no? It already gave such permission to charge after disembarking in the first place. Therefore, that clause clearly exists to override the restrictions from coming from reserves, right?

Probably it is, that is not how it is written thou. Specially looking at how they redacted the skyhammer formation which specifically takes care of the reserve/assault problem.

The khadrabyss is crazy expensive thou, both in $ and points. So I've never seen anyone use it, there it is thou.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Assault Claw is an Assault Vehicle in the first place, no? It already gave such permission to charge after disembarking in the first place. Therefore, that clause clearly exists to override the restrictions from coming from reserves, right?

Or maybe the games designer who wrote the rule was unaware that the Kharybdis is an Assault Vehicle. I mean, that would have required him to open up IA13 and look up the rules for the Kharybdis. Ain't nobody got time fo' that!

The HfB rule specifically states they can assault. It's very clear.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The HfB rule specifically states they can assault. It's very clear.

Can they also charge after running?

 Furyou Miko wrote:


Have to? You don't have to do anything. It's a luxury hobby.

It's a slow luxury hobby, at that! It's not like you can buy a kit, five minutes later you're playing with it, and voila, instant gratification.


The fact is this: If you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000, you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000 with Forge World. One month extra saving is not going to kill you, and if you needed that money for other things, you wouldn't be playing 40k in the first place.

When people started 10 years ago, it was not, a codex was 25$, an infantry box was 28$ and the largest kit in the game was 50$.

Luxury?, its fething plastic toys, it should not be sold at the same price as cocaine or gold.

And that "if you're solvent for 40k, you're solvent for FW" bullcrap, no, just no, some people like to play games and like to play 40k, but they are not neccesarly "solvent", i know people that had to make choices and sacrifices to be able to keep up till a certain point, until they couldn't anymore.

I know people who just wants to play with their friends at a game, without having to sink in 1000$.

That glorified " its a luxury" attitude is whats wrong with the hobby, and its whats conforts GW in thinking that they can price hike like they want, since people think its normal, its not.

If you have money to waste, good for you, not everyone has this chance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Easily more than 2x .

A dreadclaw should cost 65-70pts, it would be our "razorback" level of transport, 100pts is too much, for too little, 60-ish points was the sweetspot that people where willing to overlook.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Assault Claw is an Assault Vehicle in the first place, no? It already gave such permission to charge after disembarking in the first place. Therefore, that clause clearly exists to override the restrictions from coming from reserves, right?

Or maybe the games designer who wrote the rule was unaware that the Kharybdis is an Assault Vehicle. I mean, that would have required him to open up IA13 and look up the rules for the Kharybdis. Ain't nobody got time fo' that!

So you're just deciding it doesn't count because you decided that they didn't read the rules for the Claw. Got it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Assault Claw is an Assault Vehicle in the first place, no? It already gave such permission to charge after disembarking in the first place. Therefore, that clause clearly exists to override the restrictions from coming from reserves, right?

Or maybe the games designer who wrote the rule was unaware that the Kharybdis is an Assault Vehicle. I mean, that would have required him to open up IA13 and look up the rules for the Kharybdis. Ain't nobody got time fo' that!

So you're just deciding it doesn't count because you decided that they didn't read the rules for the Claw. Got it.

No, I'm deciding it doesn't allow charge from Deep Strike because of the words that they actually wrote. The above is me trying to figure out what they meant to write and why.

If you read the actual rule is explicitly states they can charge.

People need to stop comparing the points cost of a drop pod and a Dreadclaw. Ones a flyer with hover and assault vehicle, one is a brick that goes pew pew after it lands.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If you read the actual rule is explicitly states they can charge.

Can they also run before they charge?

Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

Well, the CSM codex provides delivery by Rhinos and ancient Landraiders. The game is more a shooty game atm. So delivery could also mean delivery of a shooty unit.
CSM have access to bikes and Spawn which are quite fast.

 Intercessor wrote:
People need to stop comparing the points cost of a drop pod and a Dreadclaw. Ones a flyer with hover and assault vehicle, one is a brick that goes pew pew after it lands.

The primary problem is that the extra capability is neither desired nor needed. The base model drop pod offers the utility that CSM players are really seeking, at a third of the cost, while the ability of the Dreadclaw to take off and fly again, for 3x the cost, doesn't really add much for the units in question.

Spartan Assault Tank. Expensive but the most durable vehicle outside of superheavies and can drop a full squad of Berserkers, Terminators or basically any squad, plus characters.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

I don't think Arvus is too bad for renegades... 55 points can deep strike or enter normally as a flyer... 12 capacity three hull points, jink and hover... What's not to like? If you take three in a squadron they can all act independently but you have to kill all three for a kill point.