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What is the best loadout for them? I love the model and haven't used it in ever so long, so I want to stick him back in his landraider to rain hell on the loyalists once more!

So, any advice on running them would be greatly appreciated.

You could go with the power fist/lightning claw move. It gives you 2 specialist weapons, which give you ap3 and ap2 so you can deal with pretty much anything. With this guy I'd either use mark of nurgle, or mark of Tzeentch to increase his survivability.
Another thing you could do is give him mark of Khorne and the axe of blind fury, giving you d6 extra attacks and ap2 with the bonus of striking at your initiative of 5.

What were you going to put inside the land raider with him? More terminators. Or something else? Because that could also change how you play him

If you're taking a Lord on foot, it might as well be Typhus or Kharn.

Put him back on a shelf, along with the land raider.

If you must use him, a land raider with your choice of Terminators/Berserkers/Slaaneshi marines with FNP banner. They'll be a horrendous point sink but they'll likely kill whatever they charge (assuming the land raider doesn't get knocked out turn 1/2) and then stand around in the open and get shot to death, so make sure you either multi charge a bunch of stuff or find something that's important enough to devote 600+ points to killing.

Lord, Termie, claw/fist, MoN is OK. T5 2+/5++ is not terrible.
Lord, Termie, Axe/pistol, MoK is ... Why isn't he on a jugger for extra toughness, speed and attacks? If he's coming out of a land raider, why isn't he Kharn?

I end up dishing this one out a lot, but no one mentions it and it works great for most levels of play:

Lord in Termi armor with 3 marked Oblits. DS the group midfield or backfield. Oblits can force the enemy to focus the unit, and ive they try to tie you up in HtH your lord eats them.

I've seen it work with Typhus, theoretically works with any lord you build. Take the burning brand to give the lord some reach out and touch potential.

Abbadon.

When you absolutely, positively got to kill every mother****** in the room, accept no substitute.

He's 265 points for something that can't sweep or get into combat fast. Accept substitutes ASAP.

abaddon has yet to fail me. Has gotten he's points back every single time. Sometimes only barely but still. Murderlicious.

Since you want to use him, I'd say either MoK with the Axe of Blind Fury or a Power Fist/Lightning Claw Combo would be the best loadout (Mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch). Good Luck!

If you like the special characters in termy armour, as many do, a little conversion of the standard model can turn it into a counts-as Typhus or Kharn or whoever.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He's 265 points for something that can't sweep or get into combat fast. Accept substitutes ASAP.

Have you tried using him in a few games?

I have, and he has always completely steamrolled everything he gets near. Abbadon never failed me in that capacity.

Have to agree with the above options, but also theres just so much better you could do than have him standing around in termi armor. juggerlord is best bet for sure, but just try to protect him well if you do sink a lot of points into him.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He's 265 points for something that can't sweep or get into combat fast. Accept substitutes ASAP.

Have you tried using him in a few games?

I have, and he has always completely steamrolled everything he gets near. Abbadon never failed me in that capacity.

Honestly? Your opponents are terrible if he actually does something in a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look at what he has, and therefore what he does, for 265 points:
1. He has all the Marks, so benefitting from banners is cool. However, the only one that makes a difference is Excess.
2. Even though he HAS all the marks, he doesn't unlock Cult Marines. He unlocks bloody Chosen. Chosen are already stupid expensive for what they do (which is basically nothing), and you can avoid the Abigail tax by just using the Black Legion Supplement.
3. He comes stock with the second worst Warlord trait. Only Fear is worse.
4. He's stuck in Terminator armor, so he can't sweep. That wouldn't be an issue IF:
5. He could actually catch anything in melee. CSM have no delivery options that are amazing.
6. Mathematically he then does okay.
7. He doesn't buff your army.

Take a look at Typhus, for example. He's stupid expensive too (230 points), but:
1. He makes your Cultists better, arguably.
2. His Daemon Weapon, while unwieldy, has Force.
3. He unlocks Plague Marines, our best Troop choice outside Cultists.
4. He contributes being a Psyker as well, being ML2. However, he can only roll on Nurgle's table, so his own powers are mediocre at best. This helps other Sorcerers in your army though.

So yes, you could arguably do Typhus-Spawn-Star and sling Abbigail in the middle of the battlefield, but why choose him when he'll still die easily to shooting (Typhus being more durable to anything not S10, as 5++/5+++ > 4++) and doesn't buff your army in any way?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly? Your opponents are terrible if he actually does something in a game.

Dude, I played him in some pretty f'ing competitive tourneys in New England with exceptional players. Until you know someone, throwing statements like that does not help.

When I have used Abbadon successfully it has been with a land raider. I kept him in the center of my troops, and if something got anywhere near him, I would unload him right into whatever was convenient. Anything less than a full blown death star was meat. It's not like the LR was a complete waste either. I would use it to block LOS, shoot targets, hold troops I did not want dying, etc...

This is a writeup I made on Abbadon a few years ago. Most of it still applies today as the core mechanics of assault have not changed from 6th to 7th.

Edit : I'm not saying Abbadon will win games for you. The CSM codex is really outdated right now, and is suffering. It's hard to make any CSM list super competitive right now. What I am saying here, is that he wrecks more face, point for point, than nearly any other IC in the game.

Summary
Abbadon, simply put, is nearly the best IC in the game for duels. As an added bonus, he also can wreck entire squads at a time. While the CSM codex may be lack-luster in may ways, it is solid in one sense -- Abbadon will take any other IC's lunch money and send him home crying.
Sometimes luck does play a role, and Abbadon will die to a grot, but when doing mathammer we will go off averages.

2+ Saves
Having a 2+ save is a huge advantage in assault. Now that most ICs have a AP3 weapon, ICs with 2+ saves ignore 83.33% of incoming damage. This is why artificer armor and terminator armor is so important for ICs in duels.

Look at the number of named ICs with AP2 weapons. That's why ICs with power fists/power axes are so good -- they can get around the AP2 barrier. Of course, most of those are unwieldy which brings its own disadvantage

Other Forms of Durability
Abbadon also sports a T5, EW, and a 4++ save. This is important as first it means that he is wounded on a 5+ by most ICs -- meaning that hes 50% more durable vs STR 4 attacks than a T4 IC.
EW is critical to avoid ID blows from STR 10 weapons or force weapons.

The Best Defense is a Good Offence
Abbadon is WS7, which means hes hitting most ICs on a 3+. His weapons are a STR 5 AP2 daemon weapon or a STR 8 AP3 weapon with shred.

He has perferred enemy 'space marines' encompasses multiple codex's and happens to be one of the top armies today. This means when he hits and wounds on a 3+, hes really hitting and wounding 78% of the time.

In addition to this, Abbadon also 'hates' normal space marines. On the first round of an assault he is rerolling all failed hits vs marines.

Abbadon also has 'counter-charge' and 'rage'. If Abbadon is assaulted, he will have 6 attacks, and if he charges he will have 7 attacks. This works best when Abbadon is placed in a squad of plague marines, negating the extra attacks for charging that your opponent gets.

If hes facing a T4 opponent without EW, he can use the claw to ID him. The STR 8 claw also works great on dreads. Unlike power fists, it goes at I6. This means any normal space marine IC without EW should be renamed 'chum'. Even Vulcan with his 2+/3++ likely will die on turn 1, and probably won't make it past turn 2.

Against other targets, Abbadon can use his AP2 daemon weapon. Its STR 5, and he will have 8 attacks with it on average.

Part of what makes Abbadon just beat the face out of the other ICs is his ability to get so many attacks per round. Lysander will be hitting Abbadon three times a turn, while Abbadon can smack him in return up to 11 times a round. The sheer number of dice Abbadon can throw vastly scales things in his favor.

When to use what weapon
The mathhammer has shown a few guildelines for when to use which of Abbadon's weapons. There are exceptions, but here are good guidelines
On average Drach'nyen has 3 more attacks per round, but the "Talon of Horus" is STR 8.
* When going for the ID go with the "Talon of Horus". (Vulcan, Azrael)
* When going after T6+ targets, use the "Talon of Horus" (Avatar, Swarmlord)
* When going for an IC with EW, go with Drach'nyen (Ghazghkull, Lysander)
* When chopping up loyalist marine squads, use Drach'nyen.

@themanwithnoplan: For the generic Terminator Lord, what about keeping him cheap (maybe try Axe+Spineshiver for +1A, +1I, Daemon Weapon) and pairing him with a Dark Apostle? Try and stack as many Chaos Boons onto him as quickly as you can to leverage the reroll. If you hit multiple rewards he can end up with something like +1A, +1T, EW, Instant Death, Crusader, Stubborn, etc.

Whatever transport you might use, there is a FW legacy that can give nearby Cultists Fearless. So you can screen your land raider with 40-60x Cultists, to protect it and give some measure of board control.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly? Your opponents are terrible if he actually does something in a game.

Dude, I played him in some pretty f'ing competitive tourneys in New England with exceptional players

No you don't, because none of them would be afraid of Abbadon. It doesn't matter how well a character can do in combat if:
1. They're too expensive
2. Can't actually get into combat
Abbadon is not only REALLY expensive for a character that doesn't actually buff your army in any significant way, he also cannot reach combat without having to Deep Strike (which is a T3 charge at earliest, there's no reliable means of getting accurate Deep Strike, and he's not tough enough that he and his retinue can simply just live from being shot at, which will be explained later) or taking an Assault Vehicle. You only have two options for that:
1. The junk Land Raider, which has no protection from ANYTHING, and only have 10 spaces available to work with.
2. The Spartan Assault Tank, which is arguably better (extra HP and ability to buy Melta, Lascannons that are better), but you still have it die to D-Weapons, Grav, or Haywire.
One thing to note is that Abbadon is MORE expensive than the Land Raider, and almost as expensive as the Spartan Assault Tank. Even at minimum, you're spending 27% of your points in a 1850 point army.
Durability would be another key issue here for those vehicles. A minimum Grav Gun Biker squad, with a Combi-Grav, will statistically do a Glancing hit, ergo stopping it in its tracks because Grav. Nobody is taking Land Raiders for a reason.

Therefore, you'd have to look at his durability, as neither Assault Vehicle is going to be viable, and he's honestly not tough. He DOES look like it at first: 2+/4++, EW, T5. Of course, if stats like that were good, we'd have several different weird units showing up in that environment, like Mutilators and Ogryns. Price is key here. In example:
1. For his price you can buy 19 Tactical Marines. At 24" they inflict a little less than one wound (something like .7). In Rapidfire range, that doubles to 1.4. Rerolls from various abilities will change this (A Doctrine can increase that to 1.9, Imperial Fists do 1.6)
However, that's stock. That's just Bolters. Nobody is stocking up on Bolters; they want weapons that'll cause real damage. So what happens when we optimize just a little?
2. 10 Bikers (5 in each squad) and 4 Grav Guns (I didn't even decide to put Combi-Grav here) is 270 points. 5 points above Abbadon's, so if you wanna nitpick we can remove a Biker from one at some point. 8 Bolters TL'd do .4 or .8 wounds depending on range. Sounds good until we fire the Grav Guns. 12 shots alone will inflict 3.3 wounds.
So, statistically speaking, two Biker squads can remove Abbadon by themselves. Of course, you might want to argue that Grav is broken and therefore you want to force me to use Plasma:
3. 8 TL'd Bolters still do .4 or .8 depending on range. Plasma from these dudes now inflict 1 or 2, depending on the range. However, that doesn't count in Combi-Plasma. Assuming each Sergeant has one, the total is now 1.7 or 3.34, depending on range. In Rapid Fire (which isn't hard for Bikers to accomplish), Plasma Biker squads will kill Abbadon the same amount a "broken" Grav Biker squad would do. This is once again not assuming Doctrines, so you can tell how badly that goes otherwise.

Now, we would see that he's actually not all durable on his own, so he needs a retinue. That gets expensive too, and before you know it you've spent a quarter of your available points just for him to survive the Deep Strike.

There's nothing that is going to make Abbadon viable in this game when even barely optimized Space Marine lists can handily kill him until we get that new codex. Until then, saying he wrecks face is incorrect, because he doesn't GET a chance to do so when you look at math.

Dreadclaw (can terminators fit? I don't have book at hand) or Kharybdis can deliver Abaddon and he'll be in combat turn two for sure.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly? Your opponents are terrible if he actually does something in a game.

Dude, I played him in some pretty f'ing competitive tourneys in New England with exceptional players

No you don't, because none of them would be afraid of Abbadon. It doesn't matter how well a character can do in combat if:

Hey, are you going to be at any major US tourneys in 2016? I'd like to meet up for a friendly game.
I also find it odd that you mention forge world. What tourneys do you attend where they are common?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Until then, saying he wrecks face is incorrect, because he doesn't GET a chance to do so when you look at math.

All your illustrations were in a vacume.
You will never field him alone vs 10 bikers. There will be supporting units. If you want to look at the shooting, also consider what happens to those bikes if Abbadon gets delivered into them.

I also said, clearly in yellow,
I'm not saying Abbadon will win games for you. The CSM codex is really outdated right now, and is suffering. It's hard to make any CSM list super competitive right now.
You are comparing the aged CSM codex to C:SM, which is one of the best ones right now. It's easy find discrepancies there. I am comparing Abbadon to any other IC in a challenge - which he clobbers out of hand due to the number of attacks.

Abby won't be doing anything in a challenge because he will be dead before he gets there. Yes, if he gets there, he wrecks face (though I've seen the swarmlord solo him), but until csm has both a reliable way to get him into combat and the ability to not lose 80% or more of their army by the bottom of turn 2, it really doesn't matter how killy he is.

If csm could reliably get cc units into combat, you'd see a lot less qq'ing from many, many people.

Edit: Also, his comparison to the vanilla Marines Codex is very valid, since they are a huge part of the meta because of grav. I'm sure you don't need to see the maths against eldar or tau to know that he gets wrecked there harder. He might do some work against crons, but if you suck against 3 of the big 4, you're not worth taking unless you can completely dominate the remaining 1/4 while being cheap enough not to be too much of a drawback on the rest of the army. See the culexus as a great example.

I think that Abaddon is overpriced but he can be made decent enough to use. Not many things can reliably encounter him in melee. It's crucial to place him correctly, though. As he's no biker and lacks mobility. You can do it with either a landraider, deepstrike or dreadclaw. I think that the dreadclaw is the best pick out of this 3. Landraider is the 2-d.

 Drasius wrote:
If csm could reliably get cc units into combat, you'd see a lot less qq'ing from many, many people.

That's a codex issue -- of which you will not find anyone disagreeing with. Personally I think the CSM land raider should be dropped to 175 points. It does not even come near a wraithknight yet cost's only 65 points less. The only advantage is that it meets the fluff of CSM. Though knowing GW, they will just make new models to force people to buy more.

Look back at the original question posed by TheManWithNoPlan. Find me one lord on foot (since he wants to use them in a LR) that does better in the current codex. The closest thing you will get is Typhus, who is very good. You could also make a case for Kharn or Fabious, but if you are just looking to wreck face, the best choice is Abbadon.

You suggested a lord and terminators. Abbadon would do the same thing without need of the terminators.


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 Drasius wrote:
Edit: Also, his comparison to the vanilla Marines Codex is very valid, since they are a huge part of the meta because of grav.

Again, it's apples to apples, not apples to oranges. The inital thread was comparing beatstick lord vs beatsick lord, not beatstick lord vs other armies. Even if the rest of the meta are oranges, grapes and pomegranates - it's not a valid comparison. I'll let you decide which race is the pomegranate.

I used Abaddon with a retinue of Terminators all deep striking, didn't show up until turn 4. Massive chunk of my army turning up too late to alter the outcome, they didn't scatter however.
As said above, his delivery system is the problem.
Terminator chaos lord, pick a cheap one and use as a distraction

For getting terminator lords into combat one option is have them join a fast squad like bikers or spawn. The unit forms a conga line, which can then drag the slow terminator into combat more quickly than if he was accompanied by other foot sloggers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He's 265 points for something that can't sweep or get into combat fast. Accept substitutes ASAP.

The above strategy should also work for Abaddon. I suggest Slaanesh bikes to give his top knot some FNP or Nurgle bikers for majority T6. Edit: If you don't want to be stuck with his warlord trait the trick is to put him in a second detachment. He only has to be warlord if he is in the detachment that contains your warlord / the primary detachment. If you want something that sweeps a solo slaanesh spawn running along side in addition to his escort is cheap, can keep up and isn't a priority target.

But then you end up spending too many points to make an already expensive character work. Typhus doesn't need nearly as much babysitting and actually does things for your army to be ran better. Typhus has one less attack for what he brings. Abbadon is an Abbadon't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Typhus has one less attack for what he brings.

Perhaps you should look at the codex again, or just look over what I posted earlier.

* Abbadon has 2 specialist weapons. He gets +1 attack from that.
* Abbadon has Rage. He gets +2 attacks for charging.
* Abbadon has Counter-Attack. When he is attacked, he get's another +1 for charging.
* Abbadon is WS 7 instead of WS 6, meaning his attacks will be likely hitting on 3s and not 4s vs tough ICs.

It means that on the first round of combat, Abbadon has 3 more attacks than Typhus. This is the difference between ~6 swings and ~9 swings that hit more often. That's over a 50% damage increase when you include the WS 7.

Typhus is awesome, and has treated me well when I've ran my plague marine army. No one is doubting that. When it comes to beating face, Abbadon is better.
I played plague marines during 6th, so I got a lot of experience with both Typhus and Abbadon.

 koooaei wrote:
I think that Abaddon is overpriced but he can be made decent enough to use. Not many things can reliably encounter him in melee. It's crucial to place him correctly, though. As he's no biker and lacks mobility. You can do it with either a landraider, deepstrike or dreadclaw. I think that the dreadclaw is the best pick out of this 3. Landraider is the 2-d.

Dreadclaw would be great if it didn't sometimes eat people.
With a retinue of 5 dudes, there's a 3% chance he gets eaten. 1/6 of your games will involve someone just getting eaten in general. I'm fine with that if the character isn't so expensive. I had one list with Zhufor, Kharn, a Dark Apostle, and 5 Skull Takers (yeah I had 8 in the squad. Big whoop wanna fight about it?) in a Dreadclaw with just Rapier Batteries supporting them. It is LOTS of fun. However, if one character gets eaten I'm still fine. Abbadon getting eaten is a lot worse than a character that was 100 points cheaper. Of course those two characters together is more expensive. I'm just more talking about the point with the Dreadclaw. I've had everyone eaten once at the very least. Bad rolls, but the one game where you roll the 1 shows what happens when a good chunk of your force goes missing.


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 labmouse42 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Typhus has one less attack for what he brings.

Perhaps you should look at the codex again, or just look over what I posted earlier.

* Abbadon has 2 specialist weapons. He gets +1 attack from that.
* Abbadon has Rage. He gets +2 attacks for charging.
* Abbadon has Counter-Attack. When he is attacked, he get's another +1 for charging.
* Abbadon is WS 7 instead of WS 6, meaning his attacks will be likely hitting on 3s and not 4s vs tough ICs.

I meant from the base statline, but fair point on your end as I didn't actually explain what I meant.
Tough IC's aren't a problem either because Typhus will on average have 6 Force attacks. Anything Typhus won't really be able to kill is going to be something Abbadon won't really be able to kill, like:
1. Even basic Dreads. Abbadon can strike at S8, but it isn't readily killing it. You're inflicting 2.6 HP of damage on average, which is close but no cigar. Iron Hands CT will make that just 2 with rounding. Ironclads show 1.8 HP removed, which is even worse. Iron Hands CT make that bad as well. Remember that these are all the first round of combat, so once Hatred is lost, that's it.
2. Wraithknights. Typhus will be ID'd, but Abbadon won't fare any better as they'll either shoot with D-Cannons, or have a D-Weapon in melee with a 5++/5+++. Even with just D-Cannons, Abbadon only inflicts 2.3 wounds first round of combat. Then you have Wraithknight stomps to deal with. The Sword/Shield combo will eat him alive.
3. TWC. Believe it or not, Typhus has a slight edge. Granted, Abbadon does well here, inflicting 5-6 wounds depending on the weapon with the first round of combat. Of course that's assuming no Storm Shields. Typhus, on the charge, will get 4 wounds (he gets Hatred too, don't forget). That seems worse until you realize Force is terribly easy to caste. That's an equivalent of 8 wounds. Of course that's still assuming no Storm Shields, once again. I didn't take into account throwing Blight Grenades because I didn't feel like doing the math for that.
4. Dreadknights are a problem for both. Abbadon's Talon doesn't even go through the armor, so we will use his Sword for this math. Assuming average number of attacks generated from the sword on the charge (so 10 total) we're only inflicting slightly above two wounds without the Dreadknight having cast Sanctuary. So Abbadon is going to be stuck in combat for two turns but he will win. Typhus has to live to the I1 step (so he would actually more than likely die, seeing as the Dreadknight will on average still inflict one wound). Assuming he lived he inflicts 1 wound even with Sanctuary (so with Force, it died). Even though the Dreadknight will die to Abbadon, I say it is a problem because you can't have a 265 point character stuck in two rounds of combat. The tarpitting is completely successful.

Sorry, but there's just not much more Abbadon is doing that would make one pay 35 more for the privilege of using in terms of combat ability, all while not doing anything for the army.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I think that Abaddon is overpriced but he can be made decent enough to use. Not many things can reliably encounter him in melee. It's crucial to place him correctly, though. As he's no biker and lacks mobility. You can do it with either a landraider, deepstrike or dreadclaw. I think that the dreadclaw is the best pick out of this 3. Landraider is the 2-d.

Dreadclaw would be great if it didn't sometimes eat people.
With a retinue of 5 dudes, there's a 3% chance he gets eaten. 1/6 of your games will involve someone just getting eaten in general. I'm fine with that if the character isn't so expensive. I had one list with Zhufor, Kharn, a Dark Apostle, and 5 Skull Takers (yeah I had 8 in the squad. Big whoop wanna fight about it?) in a Dreadclaw with just Rapier Batteries supporting them. It is LOTS of fun. However, if one character gets eaten I'm still fine. Abbadon getting eaten is a lot worse than a character that was 100 points cheaper. Of course those two characters together is more expensive. I'm just more talking about the point with the Dreadclaw. I've had everyone eaten once at the very least. Bad rolls, but the one game where you roll the 1 shows what happens when a good chunk of your force goes missing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Typhus has one less attack for what he brings.

Perhaps you should look at the codex again, or just look over what I posted earlier.

* Abbadon has 2 specialist weapons. He gets +1 attack from that.
* Abbadon has Rage. He gets +2 attacks for charging.
* Abbadon has Counter-Attack. When he is attacked, he get's another +1 for charging.
* Abbadon is WS 7 instead of WS 6, meaning his attacks will be likely hitting on 3s and not 4s vs tough ICs.

I meant from the base statline, but fair point on your end as I didn't actually explain what I meant.
Tough IC's aren't a problem either because Typhus will on average have 6 Force attacks. Anything Typhus won't really be able to kill is going to be something Abbadon won't really be able to kill, like:
1. Even basic Dreads. Abbadon can strike at S8, but it isn't readily killing it. You're inflicting 2.6 HP of damage on average, which is close but no cigar. Iron Hands CT will make that just 2 with rounding. Ironclads show 1.8 HP removed, which is even worse. Iron Hands CT make that bad as well. Remember that these are all the first round of combat, so once Hatred is lost, that's it.
2. Wraithknights. Typhus will be ID'd, but Abbadon won't fare any better as they'll either shoot with D-Cannons, or have a D-Weapon in melee with a 5++/5+++. Even with just D-Cannons, Abbadon only inflicts 2.3 wounds first round of combat. Then you have Wraithknight stomps to deal with. The Sword/Shield combo will eat him alive.
3. TWC. Believe it or not, Typhus has a slight edge. Granted, Abbadon does well here, inflicting 5-6 wounds depending on the weapon with the first round of combat. Of course that's assuming no Storm Shields. Typhus, on the charge, will get 4 wounds (he gets Hatred too, don't forget). That seems worse until you realize Force is terribly easy to caste. That's an equivalent of 8 wounds. Of course that's still assuming no Storm Shields, once again. I didn't take into account throwing Blight Grenades because I didn't feel like doing the math for that.
4. Dreadknights are a problem for both. Abbadon's Talon doesn't even go through the armor, so we will use his Sword for this math. Assuming average number of attacks generated from the sword on the charge (so 10 total) we're only inflicting slightly above two wounds without the Dreadknight having cast Sanctuary. So Abbadon is going to be stuck in combat for two turns but he will win. Typhus has to live to the I1 step (so he would actually more than likely die, seeing as the Dreadknight will on average still inflict one wound). Assuming he lived he inflicts 1 wound even with Sanctuary (so with Force, it died). Even though the Dreadknight will die to Abbadon, I say it is a problem because you can't have a 265 point character stuck in two rounds of combat. The tarpitting is completely successful.

Sorry, but there's just not much more Abbadon is doing that would make one pay 35 more for the privilege of using in terms of combat ability, all while not doing anything for the army.

If a technomancer is on board it doesn't eat people. Abbadon is a technomancer.

I thought that was just Warpsmiths and Malefic Sorcerers that didn't allow it to eat people. That definitely helps, but it suffers the same issue as the Spartan/Raider I pointed out earlier: That's more than 500 points without including a retinue.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
If csm could reliably get cc units into combat, you'd see a lot less qq'ing from many, many people.

That's a codex issue -- of which you will not find anyone disagreeing with. Personally I think the CSM land raider should be dropped to 175 points. It does not even come near a wraithknight yet cost's only 65 points less. The only advantage is that it meets the fluff of CSM. Though knowing GW, they will just make new models to force people to buy more.

Look back at the original question posed by TheManWithNoPlan. Find me one lord on foot (since he wants to use them in a LR) that does better in the current codex. The closest thing you will get is Typhus, who is very good. You could also make a case for Kharn or Fabious, but if you are just looking to wreck face, the best choice is Abbadon.

You suggested a lord and terminators. Abbadon would do the same thing without need of the terminators.


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 Drasius wrote:
Edit: Also, his comparison to the vanilla Marines Codex is very valid, since they are a huge part of the meta because of grav.

Again, it's apples to apples, not apples to oranges. The inital thread was comparing beatstick lord vs beatsick lord, not beatstick lord vs other armies. Even if the rest of the meta are oranges, grapes and pomegranates - it's not a valid comparison. I'll let you decide which race is the pomegranate.

Actually, I suggested that he leaves the termie lord and the land raider on the shelf, but offered some suggestions if the op really, really, really wanted to use them.

Doesn't matter that none of the foot characters in the book are better than abbadon, the fact is that foot characters are bad, abbadon included. Personally, if I was set on taking a HQ to jump out of a land raider and wreck face, I'd be choosing Kharn every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

The comparison against space Marines is meant to show how easy abby dies to common opposition units, not to say that you should be taking sm bikes instead. If you don't account for. The ability to get into combat or the ability to survive getting shot at by some of the more common units, then sure abbadon is not terrible, but then, that's kinda irrelevant to to game where you need to get into combat and have to survive being shot.

Do you think that the swarmlord is a good choice for nids?

Taking a terminator lord effectively means you are going to have to make a gamble.

The only single advantage that he has over all the other HQs is deepstriking in the middle of the enemy lines.

Give him a good weapon and a combi melta in a squad of combi melta termies with a couple chainfists.

There is pretty much a 50/50 chance that they will come in turn 2 and land where you need them. And if they do they will melta the hell out of their target and you will have a very painful unit in their backfield. If not oh well there is always next game.

The landraider tax is too much so don't bother, plus like others said there are better HQs if you are going to go the landraider route and you are not taking advantage of his single and only special purpose.