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Just putting it out there but has anyone actually proven KS is hurting FLGSs?

Last I heard Dreadball sold 3 or 4 times as many copies through regular sales channels post KS than it did in the KS campaign. I'd say your average FLGS would be glad it got kickstarted so that he would then be able to sell it too.

I can put my hand up and say I got my Dreadball from a (sort of) LGS. Both of the Season books I've bought and any teams I buy will be too.

The issue with KS sometimes is there's a time sensitive window and if your hobby budget isn't infinite, you just can't afford to put the money in, or you can't put it in before the window closes.

Normal retail doesn't go anywhere near so quick, and one has a chance to plan one's purchases, even if they don't offer quite the same discount. Plus of course any supplements post KS may well go normal channel.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Just putting it out there but has anyone actually proven KS is hurting FLGSs?

Last I heard Dreadball sold 3 or 4 times as many copies through regular sales channels post KS than it did in the KS campaign. I'd say your average FLGS would be glad it got kickstarted so that he would then be able to sell it too.

It's certainly a consideration... One of the biggest hurdles for new games is that stores want to stock stuff with a guaranteed audience. Kickstarter would certainly seem to be a way of showing stores that the audience is there.

That would be more helpful with games that are going to have supplements or other addons than with one-shot all-in-one box games, though.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Just putting it out there but has anyone actually proven KS is hurting FLGSs?

Last I heard Dreadball sold 3 or 4 times as many copies through regular sales channels post KS than it did in the KS campaign. I'd say your average FLGS would be glad it got kickstarted so that he would then be able to sell it too.

Some articles from Gary Ray, proprietor of Black Diamond Games. Gary is a regular contributor to the Delphi Forums games retailer sub forum, and seems to be a well-respected guy in the business:

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-mark-of-kickstarter.html

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/kickstarter-follow-up.html

Everything's anecdotal in this business, so if you're looking for hard numbers as to the impact of KS on retailers, you're just not going to find them. However, I have had maybe half a dozen retailers in various places around the country tell me that KickStarter isn't good for their store.

That says that Kickstarter is bad for FLGS sales of products that are launched via Kickstarter.

By that token, though, any product that the FLGS doesn't stock is 'bad' for the FLGS.

 insaniak wrote:
That says that Kickstarter is bad for FLGS sales of products that are launched via Kickstarter.

By that token, though, any product that the FLGS doesn't stock is 'bad' for the FLGS.

Errr....not really seeing how you're getting that. There's a very specific reason the chap says KS launched products are bad for his store, and that's because the niche products have already been sold to everyone via KS at a better rate than he could offer before he could even sell it (cannibalising his sales). By what you've said above though, any product not launched on Kickstarter and not stocked by the FLGS would have the same effect and be 'bad' for FLGS sales.

Which doesn't make sense, because a product launched on KS can't be a product not launched on KS.

Either you mistyped or I'm confused.

 Ketara wrote:
Errr....not really seeing how you're getting that. There's a very specific reason the chap says KS launched products are bad for his store, and that's because the niche products have already been sold to everyone via KS at a better rate than he could offer before he could even sell it (cannibalising his sales). By what you've said above though, any product not launched on Kickstarter and not stocked by the FLGS would have the same effect and be 'bad' for FLGS sales.

Yes, that's exactly where that idea takes you.

Which doesn't make sense, because a product launched on KS can't be a product not launched on KS.

No, but a product not sold through the store is a product not sold through the store.

Kickstarter is a red herring here. The problem is with the store owners choices of products to range. If he's ranging product that has no market, then it's not going to sell. Whether or not the product previously sold on Kickstarter has no impact on that.

A product sold through KS is only available for what, 3 weeks?

But KS means that product gets made and FLGSs everywhere are then able to stock it and sell it for years to come.

Were I to own a FLGS I'd think that seeing a successful KS means I should stock that product when it releases so I can capitalize on all those people who didn't manage to get the product via KS, but are now seeing the people who did enjoying it.

Obviously, there isn't any data to prove or disprove the impact of Kickstarters on retail hobby. But, let's run through a mental exercise.

If Games Workshop put the next plastic Imperial Knight on Kickstarter for:

- 20% less than MSRP, prepaid 1 year in advance
- Stretch goals: extra bits with more weapons, extra faceplate, extra tabard, tokens, dice, pilot model, etc
- You get the model 2 weeks before it ships to retail

Everyone wins! You get a nice discount, you get it earlier than anyone else, and if enough people buy in, there will be more goodies available! GW gets a higher profit margin! Money in advance!

Now... what do you think the impact would be to FLGS? I'm pretty sure local gaming stores would scream bloody murder, because if for no other reason, there would be eager people signed to buy it on KS, so that they get it a little earlier.

That's the problem with a company releasing on a direct channel earlier -- the most eager participants who want product in the release window and are probably some of the best (or at least, most excited) customers, won't buy at least the first copy through the local stores. That's gotta hurt. I don't know if it's permissible to ship to the stores at the same time as the pledges. That would certainly help.

Now, on the other hand, I get that not having the product ever developed, well, that doesn't help anyone either

 Talys wrote:
If Games Workshop put the next plastic Imperial Knight on Kickstarter for:

- 20% less than MSRP, prepaid 1 year in advance
- Stretch goals: extra bits with more weapons, extra faceplate, extra tabard, tokens, dice, pilot model, etc
- You get the model 2 weeks before it ships to retail

Everyone wins! You get a nice discount, you get it earlier than anyone else, and if enough people buy in, there will be more goodies available! GW gets a higher profit margin! Money in advance!

Now... what do you think the impact would be to FLGS? I'm pretty sure local gaming stores would scream bloody murder, because if for no other reason, there would be eager people signed to buy it on KS, so that they get it a little earlier.

As opposed to the current system, where stores would find out about the Knight a week before it is released, waste an inordinate amount of time frantically trying to drum up pre-orders for an expensive kit with no notice, and then receive a quarter of the kits that they ordered, because GW sold out through their website 3 and a half minutes after the pre-order went live.


I don't think GW is the best model for your little hypothetical, to be honest...

Pledge Managers and related things (like accepting late pledges) change that three to four week window. That's probably a good portion of the demand killer.

"Love/Hate Relationship" is how one of the local game store owners summarized his feelings about Kickstarter.

I have a question on a bit of a different tack. What's wrong with Privateer Press' board games? I haven't played any, with the possible exception of a couple of games of High Command, if that counts. Someone mentioned one only having a limited number of very similar scenarios? And someone else suggested the quality of their figures is poor compared to the rest of the board games industry?

 the_Armyman wrote:

I'm kinda getting burned out on replying to three to four people. If what I've said so far makes no sense or you're inclined to go down the road of "stop liking what I don't like," that's cool. I won't give PP my money. If you do, I think you're dumb (but no hard feelings).

I've been reading through this thread with quite a lot of bemusement.
Your (slightly reworked) lines here appear to essentially sum up your entire argument very well: "Stop liking what I don't like, If you do, I think you're dumb."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

And FWIW, if I'm looking to get rid of money for "the feelz," I donate it to one of multiple charities we donate to. I don't go to KS. If that's why you're on KS then you're doing it wrong.

Also, this.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I have a question on a bit of a different tack. What's wrong with Privateer Press' board games? I haven't played any, with the possible exception of a couple of games of High Command, if that counts. Someone mentioned one only having a limited number of very similar scenarios? And someone else suggested the quality of their figures is poor compared to the rest of the board games industry?

That was me. I've played level 7 , high command and undercity. High command died locally cause they really messed up their release schedule when it came out. With nothing but the base set to play for months, it got really old really fast.
For undercity, which I bought at full rrp from them at gencon, 95usd iirc, there were only 8 scenarios in the book. I completed them with friends in one afternoon plus night of gaming. And there's no reason to replay since there arent any different characters to use or any changes to the scenario depending on how you completed a previous scenario. It's a very poor investment for 95 USD. Sure they might have released a few new scenarios in no quarter, their bimonthly magazine but considering I paid full retail for this game, I shouldnt have to spend extra money buying a magazine to supplement the severe lack of scenarios.

I find black diamond rants laughable, beyond the obvious the product would not be made in many cases (beyond the usual suspects), the amount of people backing a project is laughably minuscule if one considers its people globally, lets see Zombiecide season 3 was backed by 12k backers globally, if 12k people, most of them not in his state and quite a few of them not even in his country are enough to impact his business then how can I take him seriously.

Its the same rant I hear about online sales, well, adapt and make your store competitive.

In all his rants the pattern is the same he wants everything in his favor.

Going back to the "Is KickStarter bad for retail?" angle, the answer is really "it depends on many factors." First and foremost is how good the company is on completing the project. I think this is somewhat secondary to the overall success of the project, really. Other factors include how good the game is at its core, is there TOO much content produced for it, and how long before the company starts tinkering with it again.

Mantic, for example, is somewhat hard to find on the shelves around me despite having about 7 game stores in an hour's drive. I can think of three (two of them branches of the same tree) where I've seen Mantic product of any kind for sale. Aside from the fact that Mantic's actual fans know to get things off their numerous KS, I think a great deal of the reason is simply that Mantic has issues getting their KS's done without pulling some sort of customer-alienating blunder. This causes your most dedicated supporters to no longer be dedicated, which hurts any word-of-mouth you're going to get. When a company fumbles or seemingly jerks their backers around this poisons the well of demand very quickly as "the guys who make that are donkeycaves" gets circulated around gaming groups. Sure, some terrible companies make some great products, but most people don't like supporting companies that annoyed their friends personally.

The other thing that happens when a project is very notable (i.e. - the ones FLGS seem to want to get behind) is you have the KS speculator. The guy (or gal) that orders six of something, planning to sell off four+ copies at a profit to cover the cost of the others they're keeping. These are competition for retailers, and botching your fulfillment via half-promises or general feth-ups means more backers become those speculators or indeed simply divest themselves of the goods they receive entirely. These people are an additional dimension of competition beyond the normal ones FLGS have to deal with in Amazon and online gaming stores. Making it worse is that a speculator often cares even less about margins because most of them were playing with money anyway as opposed to a store where their livelihood depends on the money; it's more like gambling/entertainment for them than it is a way of life. However, this can very easily create a glut on the market, and few games seem to reach the post-KS level of success needed to absorb it so that supply levels return to normal.

Taking an aside to really dive into that scenario, if I'm a consumer and I see a product I've never heard of on the shelf of a FLGS I'm going to use the magic box known as the "Internet" to see what it looks like out of the box; I don't typically drop a hundred dollars+ at a store on a product I've not seen before. We'll take Robotech as an example, because it's been both a feth-up and I've actually seen the product stocked on store shelves; none of which seem to actually MOVE said product mind you. What am I going to find? A clusterfeth of a project that has no end in sight, mistreated backers and, by far most importantly, massive discounts on the product from online retailers and people selling off their pledges because the game has no traction in their area. Even presuming I was somehow a rabid fan who somehow missed the KS, why would I pay a 30-40% mark-up compared to what prevailing prices are? Then further why would I buy into a system that people seem ambivalent towards from a company that has yet to fulfill their obligations years later? Neither question bodes well for a store trying to sell something at MSRP.

So back to the original point, there's many different factors on each project will determine if that project is bad for retail or not, but at this point in the platform's performance I can't fault stores for not wanting to roll the dice with how their bills are paid and just ignoring anything that comes out of KS for a few months after release to see if it actually has legs.

 Azazelx wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:

I'm kinda getting burned out on replying to three to four people. If what I've said so far makes no sense or you're inclined to go down the road of "stop liking what I don't like," that's cool. I won't give PP my money. If you do, I think you're dumb (but no hard feelings).

I've been reading through this thread with quite a lot of bemusement.
Your (slightly reworked) lines here appear to essentially sum up your entire argument very well: "Stop liking what I don't like, If you do, I think you're dumb."

I figured for the people who had trouble with reading comprehension, I'd just distill my posts down into what they would read anyway. Next time, I'll just lead the thread with that and save everyone some time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

And FWIW, if I'm looking to get rid of money for "the feelz," I donate it to one of multiple charities we donate to. I don't go to KS. If that's why you're on KS then you're doing it wrong.

r

Also, this.

It was a metaphor for how I view KS. It had nothing to do with charity. You and cincydooley must have gone to the same school district.

Kickstarter allows more games to be made...at little to no risk (assuming a well-organized campaign that accurately predicts costs) to the producer. It also allows companies to see first hand what gamers are willing to back, encouraging development of more games of that kind.

How is this not a win/win? Throw in that most KS campaigns are intended to fund the retail production of the game as well, and you end up with win/win/win, as LGS shelves will see the game eventually as well. And with KS demand serving as an accurate gauge for overall gamer demand, the products that succeed at KS will likely translate into LGS sales.

If people want to view crowdfunding as a tool only for the little guy, there's not much anyone can do to persuade them otherwise. I see KS as a way to take financial support away from the controlling hands of greedy banks and the super rich, and places it directly in the hands of consumers and every-day people. It replaces the guesswork of "will the market want this product" with a certainty that is hard to fault.

 jonolikespie wrote:
A product sold through KS is only available for what, 3 weeks?

But KS means that product gets made and FLGSs everywhere are then able to stock it and sell it for years to come.

Were I to own a FLGS I'd think that seeing a successful KS means I should stock that product when it releases so I can capitalize on all those people who didn't manage to get the product via KS, but are now seeing the people who did enjoying it.

The thing to bear in mind is perception - the owners of stores perceiving that Kickstarter could be stealing away sales.

During the Bones I Kickstarter one of the stores decided to get the retail pack - and sold it all before it came in. (I'm cheating here - what they did was put up a list of what people wanted from the retail pack, took money from those people it, then ordered the needed number of retail packs - it was not that they sold what they bought, it was that they bought what they sold - and then put up a list of the items that hadn't been purchased out of the retail packs, crossing them off as people chose from the remainders.)

In Bones II there were figures that I ordered through the FNSLGS (Friendly, not so local game store) - even though I also had a fairly hefty pledge. (Things that I wasn't getting enough of, and a few things that I hadn't thought that I wanted. (Trash dumpsters - four of them...)

The store does not buy the Kickstarted items, and thus cannot sell the Kickstarted items.

Also important, in this age of the interweb, folks are buying online, and often directly from the company - the game store is becoming redundant for many shoppers, and this is happening even without Kickstarter.

The Auld Grump, though I am of the opinion that the internet is just a fad - like Pokemon....

REMINDER: RULE #1 - so by all means disagree, but do so without personal attacks and/or insults.

 insaniak wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Quite frankly I don't think a company should be seeking funding for a project if they don't have the competency to see the project through. If said company are breaking into a new market they better have their gak in order or else they deserve all of the bad blood their failure will heap on them. Especially if they are experimenting with other people's money.

By its very nature, though, Kickstarter is always going to result in a lot of projects being run by people who thought they knew what they were doing right up until it came time to actually do it... and suddenly they start to find out the hard way how much they didn't actually know.

True, which is why there are so many heartbreak stories involving Kickstarter. I'd wager a good 20-30% of Kickstarters should never be allowed to run in the first place.

If a lot of those failed project creators were honest with themselves they probably would admit they weren't ready for the challenges associated with their projects. I think a lot of campaigns fail because of the over eagerness (or greed) of the project creators and not enough reality checks to ensure they are being responsible and cautious entrepreneurs.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Also important, in this age of the interweb, folks are buying online, and often directly from the company - the game store is becoming redundant for many shoppers, and this is happening even without Kickstarter.

The Auld Grump, though I am of the opinion that the internet is just a fad - like Pokemon....

That's a thought worth exploring. Is KS a problem, or is it simply a target that can be held up and vilified in a much, much wider economic landscape that has changed drastically over the last decade?

Nevermind.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
So, no, if you want to point at who is 'murdering' the poor innocent gamestore, point at distributors and banks, as well as all of the people that buy online rather than go to their local store

You know I love you Grump, but just to be totally fair, that up there is part of the gripe some folks have with KS; it cuts out the FLGS. It is essentially buying online instead of in a brick and mortar store.

You can say that it is a product that wasn't available in the store anyways, but maybe those products would be in the stores if they hadn't been crowdfunded, maybe not.

Just pointing it out is all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kingbobb wrote:
Kickstarter allows more games to be made...at little to no risk (assuming a well-organized campaign that accurately predicts costs) to the producer. It also allows companies to see first hand what gamers are willing to back, encouraging development of more games of that kind.

But that statement isn't actually true. Kickstarter involves some quite substantial risks. There can be a significant return in the form of market penetration, advertising, and available channels for customer engagement; but you are playing a dangerous game to get there.

CMoN has created a formula that works...most of the time. But I think it is quite fair to say that there are far more Kickstarter/crowdfunding tales of woe than there are tales of success.

Heck, just look at the All Quiet on the Martian Front thread in News and Rumors. Lots of apparently successful crowdfunding campaigns in the table top games market wind up in a mess, or wind up being unprofitable.

As I often say, Kickstarter is a Siren living in El Dorado on top of the Big Rock Candy Mountain. To be 'successful' in crowdfunding these days, you mostly have to come with a product that is 100% complete, or nearly so. LOTS of campaigns that tell you a project isn't finished are not being forthcoming. Finishing a project pre-campaign is how many smaller companies, ironically, minimize the risks associated with crowdfunding.

The type of projects that were successful just 3 or even 2 years ago simply could not get funded in today's Kickstarter environment. What does that mean? At the very least, it means that crowdfunding has changed. Kickstarter is influencing the way we view, purchase, interact with, and think about table top gaming products, for both good and ill.

As I have said already, it isn't simply a more-games-less-money-more-better scenario, just like more and cheaper chicken eggs isn't necessarily better in the long term or that using child labor to produce cheaper electronics and textiles isn't automatically better because it drives down prices and increases availability.

Crowdfunding has good things about it and bad things about it, but I do no think it is fair for anyone to say that the platform is functioning as the creators ostensibly intend it to function. That's not 100% bad, but it isn't 100% good either.

Is it better for the market/community if a product hits the market quicker, but the producer goes under because the campaign resulted in a net loss, or for the product to get released more slowly in a way that allows the producer to turn a steady profit and continue supporting the product? We are collectively creating a set of circumstances in which lots of producers feel that they need to use crowdfunding in order to survive, even if it means putting their entire business at risk every time they launch a new campaign.

Not every campaign is like this, but we should not think of crowdfunding in a binary good vs evil framework. It's far more complicated than that. We should give some serious thought to what our support for what kind of projects means for the community and market at large. I want table top gaming to grow and become more mainstream. I want a diversity of quality products produced by highly enabled small developers that can sustain ongoing support for those products.

If that is what I want, and if that is what anybody else wants, then we should all think critically about how we interact with crowdfunding and what impact this behavior has on our broader wants/goals.

weeble1000 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
So, no, if you want to point at who is 'murdering' the poor innocent gamestore, point at distributors and banks, as well as all of the people that buy online rather than go to their local store

You know I love you Grump, but just to be totally fair, that up there is part of the gripe some folks have with KS; it cuts out the FLGS. It is essentially buying online instead of in a brick and mortar store.

You can say that it is a product that wasn't available in the store anyways, but maybe those products would be in the stores if they hadn't been crowdfunded, maybe not.

Just pointing it out is all.

I would be willing to bet that 75% of those folks buying through Kickstarter would not have been buying from the FLGS in any event - so, that is largely a false gripe.

Kickstarter is contesting more with the online games market than with the brick and mortar shops.

If for no other reason that the people that know about what is coming up on Kickstarter are more likely to, you know, have a computer, and to have at least some small modicum of interweb savvy.

Kickstarter is a symptom of the internet plague - but is not the disease in and of itself.

My own viewpoint is heavily weighted by the need to special order items that I want - if I need to order and wait in any event, then I might as well mail order.

The convenience of the store is the ability to see the physical product on the shelves, and to make a judgement based upon that presence.

If what I want to order isn't carried because the game store proprietor got his nose out of joint due to a Kickstarter, then he loses twice - because he does not have the product on the shelves, I am more likely to order on the internet.

*EDIT* It is worth noting that when I am in an area with a game store, I hit the store first - the internet is my second choice. But if the proprietor does not want to stock, oh... Deadzone Rebs, for example, because he dislikes that Mantic hit the Kickstarter first... then he can go pound sand. (I am more forgiving if it is because he just never heard of the game - in which case I may order through him, just so he can see the product.) (I have had both reactions to Deadzone... the store that hadn't known about it is thinking to get the game - because it will help boost Necromunda when it comes out... (Not compete - he thinks that there will be overlapping sales - since the terrain works just fine for both games.))

In the case of the Reaper Bones, I have seen a reverse of that trend in one of the stores - they are more likely to have the newest Bones than to have the latest metal Reaper minis - for the simple reason that they sell a heck of a lot faster, and, more importantly, sell through faster. (Selling through means that the product no longer takes up space, which means that it can be replaced with new product, which, in the case of Bones, is also likely to sell through.)

Bones are an excellent impulse buy - with folks picking them up with their Magic cards.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
So, no, if you want to point at who is 'murdering' the poor innocent gamestore, point at distributors and banks, as well as all of the people that buy online rather than go to their local store

You know I love you Grump, but just to be totally fair, that up there is part of the gripe some folks have with KS; it cuts out the FLGS. It is essentially buying online instead of in a brick and mortar store.

You can say that it is a product that wasn't available in the store anyways, but maybe those products would be in the stores if they hadn't been crowdfunded, maybe not.

Just pointing it out is all.

I would be willing to bet that 75% of those folks buying through Kickstarter would not have been buying from the FLGS in any event - so, that is largely a false gripe.

Kickstarter is contesting more with the online games market than with the brick and mortar shops.

The Auld Grump

I don't know that it is fair to say that. It would be fair enough to say that products that are entirely unavailable to a brick and mortar shop don't compete with a brick and mortar shop, but that is also a false dichotomy.

At the end of the day, people have a hobby budget. Companies, such as Red Box Games among many others, are specifically going to Kickstarter because even their webstores have experienced a significant drop in sales. I can't tell you how often I have heard that my own company should go to Kickstarter in order to compete effectively. That is the prevailing perception, and it is a perception we are complicit in creating.

As I have heard from lots of producers, the money is on Kickstarter. Lots of producers feel like they have to go there in order to compete effectively, not because of the advertising benefits, but because their typical customers are spending their money backing Kickstarter campaigns. We are becoming conditioned to Kickstarter campaigns, and we are becoming conditioned as to what to expect from those campaigns, which is both good and bad.

It would be disingenuous to say that these sorts of buying habits, in the aggregate, have no impact on the types of products that we have seen, and will see in the future. And it would be equally disingenuous to say that these buying habits have no impact on the ways in which products are offered for sale in this market.

We are seeing a Kickstarted board game from Privateer Press because we have helped create a value proposition for that type of product delivered in that manner.

If you asked me, I would say PP isn't going to Kickstarter because it wants customers to take on the risk. I would say that PP is going to Kickstarter because that is where people are spending their money, so if you want that money, you have to compete in that space, with a product tailored to compete 'well' in that space, i.e. a self-contained CMoN style board game with a splashy campaign and all the Kickstarter bells and whistles.

As I said, Kickstarter, for both good and ill, is changing the way we learn about, purchase, and experience table top games products. We can't hand wave the impact of those changes. The fact that people are spending their money on Kickstarter means that they are less likely to spend that money in the FLGS. That's not a great leap of logic to make. It also means that they are less likely to spend their money on ecommerce sites.

I do it all the time. If I throw $200 into a Kickstarter campaign one month, I'm not buying a slew of new 4Ground terrain, and I'm much less likely to grab a blister off the rack for the lols at the FLGS. Was I going to spend that $200 at the FLGS? We'll never know, because I didn't. It got spent on a Kickstarter campaign so it wasn't even in my pocket when I went down to the shop.

weeble1000 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
So, no, if you want to point at who is 'murdering' the poor innocent gamestore, point at distributors and banks, as well as all of the people that buy online rather than go to their local store

You know I love you Grump, but just to be totally fair, that up there is part of the gripe some folks have with KS; it cuts out the FLGS. It is essentially buying online instead of in a brick and mortar store.

You can say that it is a product that wasn't available in the store anyways, but maybe those products would be in the stores if they hadn't been crowdfunded, maybe not.

Just pointing it out is all.

I would be willing to bet that 75% of those folks buying through Kickstarter would not have been buying from the FLGS in any event - so, that is largely a false gripe.

Kickstarter is contesting more with the online games market than with the brick and mortar shops.

The Auld Grump

I don't know that it is fair to say that. It would be fair enough to say that products that are entirely unavailable to a brick and mortar shop don't compete with a brick and mortar shop, but that is also a false dichotomy.

At the end of the day, people have a hobby budget. Companies, such as Red Box Games among many others, are specifically going to Kickstarter because even their webstores have experienced a significant drop in sales. I can't tell you how often I have heard that my own company should go to Kickstarter in order to compete effectively. That is the prevailing perception, and it is a perception we are complicit in creating.

As I have heard from lots of producers, the money is on Kickstarter. Lots of producers feel like they have to go there in order to compete effectively, not because of the advertising benefits, but because their typical customers are spending their money backing Kickstarter campaigns. We are becoming conditioned to Kickstarter campaigns, and we are becoming conditioned as to what to expect from those campaigns, which is both good and bad.

It would be disingenuous to say that these sorts of buying habits, in the aggregate, have no impact on the types of products that we have seen, and will see in the future. And it would be equally disingenuous to say that these buying habits have no impact on the ways in which products are offered for sale in this market.

We are seeing a Kickstarted board game from Privateer Press because we have helped create a value proposition for that type of product delivered in that manner.

If you asked me, I would say PP isn't going to Kickstarter because it wants customers to take on the risk. I would say that PP is going to Kickstarter because that is where people are spending their money, so if you want that money, you have to compete in that space, with a product tailored to compete 'well' in that space, i.e. a self-contained CMoN style board game with a splashy campaign and all the Kickstarter bells and whistles.

As I said, Kickstarter, for both good and ill, is changing the way we learn about, purchase, and experience table top games products. We can't hand wave the impact of those changes. The fact that people are spending their money on Kickstarter means that they are less likely to spend that money in the FLGS. That's not a great leap of logic to make. It also means that they are less likely to spend their money on ecommerce sites.

I do it all the time. If I throw $200 into a Kickstarter campaign one month, I'm not buying a slew of new 4Ground terrain, and I'm much less likely to grab a blister off the rack for the lols at the FLGS. Was I going to spend that $200 at the FLGS? We'll never know, because I didn't. It got spent on a Kickstarter campaign so it wasn't even in my pocket when I went down to the shop.

I do not know that stores are making less because of Kickstarter on top of the loss to the internet .

I do know that the most successful store in the area actively backs Kickstarters themselves - and that people spend their money there in preference to the internet. (If it were closer to where I live, then I would very much be spending my money there - they are also the store that sees crossover sales betweeen Deadzone and Necromunda - and will be using the Deadzone terrain for both games.)

They backed Bones, and get in each fresh Bones release - and have plugged several other KS campaigns, feeling that the KS hype does help raise interest.

The physically second closest store is pretty much entirely GW supplies - and is not doing well.

They are being hurt a lot harder by GW's 'direct only' internet sales and by the fact that they invested heavily in AoS. (They bought sixteen AoS boxes, and sold two - both in the first week. Since then, nothing. They are returning the bulk of those unsold boxes while they can.)

While I can get there easily, they have nothing that I want to purchase. (I think that they will be lucky to survive the year - though BaC is doing well for them.)

The next closest is the one that refuses to carry any product that has been Kickstarted - and even refused to special order any. (Care to guess where I don't shop at all anymore?)

The first closest gaming store is kind of a special case - being more about anime and manga. They will special order, but aren't much interested in the games. They pretty much have prepainted minis, official D&D minis, and that is it for minis gaming. Nice people, very friendly... but lacking in what I am looking for - and they do a very good job of catering to their customers, so I cannot say that they are wrong - they are just focused.

But the FNSLGS is a great place - and we get up there about once a month. (It might go up, if the rumors that I am hearing about a KoW league bears fruit.) But an hour plus drive, in Maine winters... not much fun.

The Auld Grump

Based on their release and forget policy for games, I don't believe anything Mantic says about their post Kickstarter sales any more than something GW bloviates, like their 'best sellers' list. It's all gak without real numbers.

While not as many some, I can offer a bit of anecdotal evidence - only one store within a two hour drive of me carries any Mantic at all. And they stopped getting in anything more at the original Dreadball and Deadzone. It simply has no legs beyond the Kickstarter, and people are not beating down their doors asking for it.

 the_Armyman wrote:

It was a metaphor for how I view KS. It had nothing to do with charity. You and cincydooley must have gone to the same school district.

If we did, it must have been the same one that taught us that your example wasn't a metaphor.

You make a pretty clear claim that people backed KS "for the feels."

I very plainly stated that if you were in giving money away "for the feels" then charity, not KS, is the appropriate avenue to do so.

You made a false claim that you were just using a metaphor (which, if we're being technical, would have been a conceit based on the length of your not-metaphor).

Now we're here.

 insaniak wrote:

 Talys wrote:
If Games Workshop put the next plastic Imperial Knight on Kickstarter for:

- 20% less than MSRP, prepaid 1 year in advance
- Stretch goals: extra bits with more weapons, extra faceplate, extra tabard, tokens, dice, pilot model, etc
- You get the model 2 weeks before it ships to retail

Everyone wins! You get a nice discount, you get it earlier than anyone else, and if enough people buy in, there will be more goodies available! GW gets a higher profit margin! Money in advance!

Now... what do you think the impact would be to FLGS? I'm pretty sure local gaming stores would scream bloody murder, because if for no other reason, there would be eager people signed to buy it on KS, so that they get it a little earlier.

As opposed to the current system, where stores would find out about the Knight a week before it is released, waste an inordinate amount of time frantically trying to drum up pre-orders for an expensive kit with no notice, and then receive a quarter of the kits that they ordered, because GW sold out through their website 3 and a half minutes after the pre-order went live.


I don't think GW is the best model for your little hypothetical, to be honest...

No, you're right; GW is not the best model at all

Realistically what happens today is, GW rep calls up the store and says, "We have 3 knights allocated for you", and the store says, "please please please may I have 10?" and then the rep says, "Because I love you, and you buy all the other stuff that doesn't move, you can have 4". And they're sold before they get there. On the plus side, the store doesn't really have to do anything at all in order to get the preorders; on the downside, there's a lot of disappointed fans who have to wait a month for the next run.

But you could replace GW with any other company's product, and you'd end up with the same result -- either way, whatever that first run was, it's snapped up in a direct channel, with no opportunity for the independent, and at least with GW products, the launch window is the best time to bring stuff in, because the turnaround is so fast.

The way my store looks at it -- even factoring in discounts -- when GW has a hot new release, they bring in 6, sell 6 instantly, and then bring in 3 more, that sell more slowly. The net effect is that those last 3 were free, because the profit from first 6, even with a discount, paid for the last 3.