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So someone I know runs blood angels with Grey knights allies. During the first turn he decides to spring on me that all his drop pods have a chance to come in turn one. I told him that's not how it works but he explained it like this.

First, he is running the Grey knight formation that allows everything in it to deep strike turn one. He had 3 ten man tac squads in three pods, then two more pods he purchased empty that he had the Grey knights in. He argued that since they can deep strike turn one, the extra pods would roll to come on after the three that would normally be the max allowed to drop. But doesn't reserves rolls happen first, and if he got the two Grey knight pods in, then he could only drop one more marine pod.

He is always trying to abuse the rules and it gets old but I can't refuse the game if a tournament comes up and this happens.

Technically, he isn't wrong. Half come in automatically. And the Drop Pod Assault rule does state that "At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. That "at the beginning" makes it so half the pods come in before you even roll for reserves. It states that you start rolling for reserves AFTER they come in.

Sorry dude, but your friend is actually following the rules correctly here.

I looked up the relevant rules, hoping to support you, but I think I found proof for your opponent by the RAW. My instinct was that you rolled once for the transport, not for the unit inside, but then I found this;

Combined Reserve Units

During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

So that means you roll once for both, but it doesn't specify which of the two you roll for - just that they arrive together. In this way, yes, it appears that in the case that a Grey Knight unit can roll to enter from Reserves Turn 1, and that unit starts the game combined with a Drop Pod, you could still roll for them to arrive on Turn 1 in the Drop Pod.

Sorry :(

Does the Grey Knights Formation rule include any Transport they are riding in? Because the Drop Pods won't have this rule, so do not qualify as benefiting from it otherwise.

Charistoph wrote:
Does the Grey Knights Formation rule include any Transport they are riding in? Because the Drop Pods won't have this rule, so do not qualify as benefiting from it otherwise.

It does not disallow transports, fwiw. So I don't know if that changes things. It doesn't specify anything regarding transports. Just units held in DSR can be rolled for on a 3+ starting turn one. Since Drop Pod Assault says the remaining pods are rolled for normally, it might make it so they can't come in early as that would not be normal.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Does the Grey Knights Formation rule include any Transport they are riding in? Because the Drop Pods won't have this rule, so do not qualify as benefiting from it otherwise.

It does not disallow transports, fwiw. So I don't know if that changes things. It doesn't specify anything regarding transports. Just units held in DSR can be rolled for on a 3+ starting turn one. Since Drop Pod Assault says the remaining pods are rolled for normally, it might make it so they can't come in early as that would not be normal.

The problem lies in mixing Rites of Teleportation (which only applies to units in the formation) and Drop Pod Assault from the drop pods (which are not a unit in the formation).

The thing is, as per the rule I quoted above, the rules do not specify that you are rolling for the transport, just that you make a single roll for both. As worded, that means you roll for EITHER the Drop Pod, or for the unit that it's combined with (by being embarked within). You are not required to roll for the Drop Pod - you could choose the unit inside to roll for. If you choose the unit inside, they have the Rites of Teleportation, and are a unit that are in Deep Strike Reserves...

I think this just shows why Battle Brothers mucks things up so much in 40k.

 Yarium wrote:
The thing is, as per the rule I quoted above, the rules do not specify that you are rolling for the transport, just that you make a single roll for both. As worded, that means you roll for EITHER the Drop Pod, or for the unit that it's combined with (by being embarked within). You are not required to roll for the Drop Pod - you could choose the unit inside to roll for. If you choose the unit inside, they have the Rites of Teleportation, and are a unit that are in Deep Strike Reserves...

I think this just shows why Battle Brothers mucks things up so much in 40k.

Wouldn't they not come in with their Drop Pod in that case?

I should point out that you are technically rolling for reserves for the Drop Pod, not the Grey Knight unit inside of it. The Grey Knights are not in Deep Strike reserve, but are embarked on the Drop Pod, so in this case I would say it does not benefit from Rites of Teleportation.

As far as I can see it, if he wants to roll for it, he has to roll for the Grey Knights only and let the pods enter on their own, since again only the Grey Knights have Rites of Teleportation, not the pod itself. It's like saying a Land Raider can deepstrike because the Terminators inside can.

 Yarium wrote:
The thing is, as per the rule I quoted above, the rules do not specify that you are rolling for the transport, just that you make a single roll for both. As worded, that means you roll for EITHER the Drop Pod, or for the unit that it's combined with (by being embarked within). You are not required to roll for the Drop Pod - you could choose the unit inside to roll for. If you choose the unit inside, they have the Rites of Teleportation, and are a unit that are in Deep Strike Reserves...

I think this just shows why Battle Brothers mucks things up so much in 40k.

There is nothing that states which one you do roll for, true. But since they are reliant on the Transport's movement, it's rules would be in force, not the Embarked unit's. At least, not without express notation like Scout and Infiltrate.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
The thing is, as per the rule I quoted above, the rules do not specify that you are rolling for the transport, just that you make a single roll for both. As worded, that means you roll for EITHER the Drop Pod, or for the unit that it's combined with (by being embarked within). You are not required to roll for the Drop Pod - you could choose the unit inside to roll for. If you choose the unit inside, they have the Rites of Teleportation, and are a unit that are in Deep Strike Reserves...

I think this just shows why Battle Brothers mucks things up so much in 40k.

Wouldn't they not come in with their Drop Pod in that case?

Basically you pick which you want to roll for and because they're combined they'll arrive at the same time.

I think he cheated. Grey Knights can't take Drop Pods at all. Nemesis only allows units from that detachment to DS turn one. As the Drop Pods aren't GK pods, they follow the same DS rules that the BA use, which to my knowledge, dont have turn one roll for reserves.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I should point out that you are technically rolling for reserves for the Drop Pod, not the Grey Knight unit inside of it. The Grey Knights are not in Deep Strike reserve, but are embarked on the Drop Pod, so in this case I would say it does not benefit from Rites of Teleportation.

I'm away from my books right now but If I recall correctly, the bolded part is untrue. I remember from discussions about the angel's fury formation that units inside the drop pods were explicitly stated by the rules to ALSO be in deep strike reserve. 90% sure on that info, but away from books as I said, so no pitchforks if it's inaccurate.

And judging from Yarium's quote about the combined reserves, I think this cross-detachment rule abuse is technically legit. :/

I am convinced that because the extra drop pods are not part of the formation they do not benefit from the Rites of Teleportation at all; doesn't matter if you roll for the unit and their transport as a single combined roll since part of group is not qualifying for the formations benefit.

All I know is when those units of Grey knights can land anywhere safely via pod protection and they do the Nova power, it's pretty damned broken.

As quoted from the BRB, the controlling player can choose any of three 'things' to make the reserve roll for: The Transport, the Unit, or the Independent Character. Since it is legal to place a unit in the Fast Attack Blood Angels Drop Pod, the controlling player can choose to 'roll' for the pod (using its rules) or choose to 'roll' for the unit inside the pod (using ITS rules).

The only opportunity to deny this is to insist that a die roll be made in order to take advantage of the, 'roll for transport, unit or independent character'. If 'Rites of Teleportation' still uses a die roll to bring units on, then there's no way to prevent it. If, however, the Purifiers (or whatever it is in the other drop pods) do NOT roll in order to come in (i.e. come in automatically), then it becomes a question of whether or not that rule confers to the transport. It doesn't, of course, since the transport is not Dedicated.

Cheers!

Malathrim wrote:I am convinced that because the extra drop pods are not part of the formation they do not benefit from the Rites of Teleportation at all; doesn't matter if you roll for the unit and their transport as a single combined roll since part of group is not qualifying for the formations benefit.

Doesn't matter that it doesn't have the Rites of Teleportation, because the unit that it's transporting does. When it comes time to make Reserve Rolls, you check to see if any units in Deep Strike Reserves have the Rites of Teleportation rule. You find a Grey Knight unit in Deep Strike Reserves, since the unit has been declared to be a Combined Unit with the Drop Pod from another detachment. As a Combined Unit, this allows them to make a single Reserve roll for either unit, and the result will affect both. The Grey Knight unit has Rites of Teleportation, allowing them to make this roll on the first turn. You roll, and if successful, both they AND the Drop Pod arrive at the same time, with the Grey Knights inside the Drop Pod. This is rules-lawyery as all (bleep), but is 100% legal.

Orock wrote:All I know is when those units of Grey knights can land anywhere safely via pod protection and they do the Nova power, it's pretty damned broken.

Agreed. But, you have some options! First, you can simply choose not to play this person as, from the sounds of it, they're far more interested in playing the game "how to break Warhammer 40k" than playing the game "Warhammer 40k". Ask them to save that stuff for a tournament, and request more fluffy builds. But yes, in a tournament, this would be legal.

 Yarium wrote:

Malathrim wrote:I am convinced that because the extra drop pods are not part of the formation they do not benefit from the Rites of Teleportation at all; doesn't matter if you roll for the unit and their transport as a single combined roll since part of group is not qualifying for the formations benefit.

Doesn't matter that it doesn't have the Rites of Teleportation, because the unit that it's transporting does. When it comes time to make Reserve Rolls, you check to see if any units in Deep Strike Reserves have the Rites of Teleportation rule. You find a Grey Knight unit in Deep Strike Reserves, since the unit has been declared to be a Combined Unit with the Drop Pod from another detachment. As a Combined Unit, this allows them to make a single Reserve roll for either unit, and the result will affect both. The Grey Knight unit has Rites of Teleportation, allowing them to make this roll on the first turn. You roll, and if successful, both they AND the Drop Pod arrive at the same time, with the Grey Knights inside the Drop Pod. This is rules-lawyery as all (bleep), but is 100% legal.

I disagree. For movement, and similar activities, Embarked units rely on the rules of the Transport. Rarely do the rules of the Embarked unit have any sway on how a Transport operates. Storm Ravens do not get Deep Strike just because they are carry Jump Marines, after all. Rhinos do not get Infiltrate if they are carrying Scouts. So, too, the Drop Pods do not get to benefit from Rites of Teleportation.

Just because you roll for all at one time does not mean you get to choose which one's rules you go by. It just means that you don't roll for each one so that the Embarked comes before or after the Transport.

If you want turn 1 Drop Pods, go Skyhammer.

Charistoph wrote:
I disagree. For movement, and similar activities, Embarked units rely on the rules of the Transport. Rarely do the rules of the Embarked unit have any sway on how a Transport operates. Storm Ravens do not get Deep Strike just because they are carry Jump Marines, after all. Rhinos do not get Infiltrate if they are carrying Scouts. So, too, the Drop Pods do not get to benefit from Rites of Teleportation.

Just because you roll for all at one time does not mean you get to choose which one's rules you go by. It just means that you don't roll for each one so that the Embarked comes before or after the Transport.

If you want turn 1 Drop Pods, go Skyhammer.

We're not told to roll for the Transport, we're told to roll for the combined unit. The rules state "roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Indepedent Character/Transport vehicle". The "and/or" says that we can roll for the unit and it's transport together, or else we can roll for the unit or its transport, and the single roll will affect both. Note, this is just how we determine what's coming in and when, and not how it's coming in or where. Your argument is that this roll determines how it comes in or where it comes in, which is not applicable. You are, in effect, asking a different question; "Does a unit that can Deep Strike or Infiltrate confer that special rule to a Transport it's embarked in?". I do not have the rules in front of me, but I believe the answer is "no", but please feel free to look that up and post the answer, though it would still not change the outcome of this argument. Unfortunately, in this situation, the Drop Pod does in fact put the Grey Knight unit into Deep Strike Reserves, where it will benefit from the special rule.

It actually does matter that the Drop Pod doesn't have Rites of Teleportation, because you need it to come in from reserves from turn one.

The BA Drop Pod, despite carrying a GK unit, doesn't have that rule. Were you to DS that Pod in, you would be violating a rule without having permission to override it. Nemesis Strike force doesn't give permission for other detachments to come in turn one.

 Frozocrone wrote:
It actually does matter that the Drop Pod doesn't have Rites of Teleportation, because you need it to come in from reserves from turn one.

The BA Drop Pod, despite carrying a GK unit, doesn't have that rule. Were you to DS that Pod in, you would be violating a rule without having permission to override it. Nemesis Strike force doesn't give permission for other detachments to come in turn one.

Note quite the same. You need to have Rites of Teleportation to make the reserve roll on Turn 1. But you're not rolling for the Drop Pod, you're rolling for the unit inside it (hence the "and/or" statement). Nothing prevents a Drop Pod from physically arriving on the first turn, but there is normally a rule that prevents you from rolling to see if they arrive. Since you roll for the Rites of Teleportation for the Grey Knight unit though, you bypass this rule. The game now sees a Combined Unit that has successfully passed a Reserve roll, and the Combined Unit begins the process of deploying via Deep Strike.

 Yarium wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
I disagree. For movement, and similar activities, Embarked units rely on the rules of the Transport. Rarely do the rules of the Embarked unit have any sway on how a Transport operates. Storm Ravens do not get Deep Strike just because they are carry Jump Marines, after all. Rhinos do not get Infiltrate if they are carrying Scouts. So, too, the Drop Pods do not get to benefit from Rites of Teleportation.

Just because you roll for all at one time does not mean you get to choose which one's rules you go by. It just means that you don't roll for each one so that the Embarked comes before or after the Transport.

If you want turn 1 Drop Pods, go Skyhammer.

We're not told to roll for the Transport, we're told to roll for the combined unit. The rules state "roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Indepedent Character/Transport vehicle". The "and/or" says that we can roll for the unit and it's transport together, or else we can roll for the unit or its transport, and the single roll will affect both. Note, this is just how we determine what's coming in and when, and not how it's coming in or where. Your argument is that this roll determines how it comes in or where it comes in, which is not applicable. You are, in effect, asking a different question; "Does a unit that can Deep Strike or Infiltrate confer that special rule to a Transport it's embarked in?". I do not have the rules in front of me, but I believe the answer is "no", but please feel free to look that up and post the answer, though it would still not change the outcome of this argument. Unfortunately, in this situation, the Drop Pod does in fact put the Grey Knight unit into Deep Strike Reserves, where it will benefit from the special rule.

No, I am not asking that question at all, at least, that is not my first or primary question. I am looking at this situation from multiple perspectives.

First is the movement relationship between Transport and Embarked. The Embarked are reliant upon the movement rules of their Transport. Under basic rules, the Embarked do nothing to change a Transport's ability to move. Arriving from Reserves is a type of movement, even from Deep Strike (just very vertical in that situation). Is there any rule that overrides this condition?

Then is the relationship of rolling for Reserves. Yes, you "roll a single dice for the unit and/or its ...Transport vehicle", but does it state anything about using any/all their Reserve bonuses that the Embarked may have and combine them with or override any bonuses that the Transport may have?

Finally, we come to the question you think I'm asking which is "does the rule the Embarked carry confer to its Transport?" The basic rules do not give permission to do this. Some Special Rules do, though, so we double check to see if they meet the conditions.

 Yarium wrote:
But you're not rolling for the Drop Pod, you're rolling for the unit inside it...

Then you're not using the 'Drop Pod Assault' rule and have basically disconnected the pod from those who are using the rule.

Charistoph wrote:No, I am not asking that question at all, at least, that is not my first or primary question. I am looking at this situation from multiple perspectives.

First is the movement relationship between Transport and Embarked. The Embarked are reliant upon the movement rules of their Transport. Under basic rules, the Embarked do nothing to change a Transport's ability to move. Arriving from Reserves is a type of movement, even from Deep Strike (just very vertical in that situation). Is there any rule that overrides this condition?

Then is the relationship of rolling for Reserves. Yes, you "roll a single dice for the unit and/or its ...Transport vehicle", but does it state anything about using any/all their Reserve bonuses that the Embarked may have and combine them with or override any bonuses that the Transport may have?

Finally, we come to the question you think I'm asking which is "does the rule the Embarked carry confer to its Transport?" The basic rules do not give permission to do this. Some Special Rules do, though, so we double check to see if they meet the conditions.

Arriving from Reserves is not a type of movement. Even Deep Striking is not a type of movement (it is technically a type of deployment that occurs before the movement phase). I know you feel this is not the case, as you have presented a similar argument in other rules debates. I do not have the rules in front of me right now, so I can't effectively argue this right now though. However, if you have the rules, please post where the Deep Strike is considered a movement, and I will happily cede that point. Even still, it doesn't change that the Reserve Roll has nothing to do with movement, and thus has nothing to do with whether or not the unit can arrive from Deep Strike turn 1. Deep Striking is a process of deploying the unit - but even if it were movement, it'd still just be a way to describe how it moves as it enters the battlefield. The Reserve Roll is a separate thing, and that's what's being influenced here.

As for your next point, it doesn't matter if it confers to the Transport. It, in fact, does not confer to the Transport vehicle. However, that is not a necessity of the rules. The rules only ask you to make a single Reserve roll, to which the Grey Knights in that detachment are legally allowed to do. Once made, both units arrive, as they are a combined unit. The Transport does not need to have that rule, since the Transport is not the unit that is being rolled for. I think the problem here is that you are considering the Combined Unit to be the only thing here that can make a Reserve Roll. There are in fact THREE (3) such units; the Drop Pod, the Grey Knights, and the Drop Pod-Grey Knight Combined Unit. This is what "and/or" means, you can do (Option A) OR (Option B) OR (Option A&B).

Option A (the Drop Pod unit) can't roll for reserves. Option B (the Grey Knights unit) can roll for reserves. Option A&B (the two combined together) can't roll for reserves. The sucker here is that because Option B is still an option, when it passes its Reserve roll, it forces the Drop Pod to begin the Deep Strike deployment process as well.

If the rules instead stated "make a single reserve roll for the Transport vehicle", then it'd be clear that the Grey Knights couldn't arrive on Turn 1, since the Transport can't make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. Unfortunately, it says "and/or", meaning that the unit contained in the Transport is a viable option. That is the permission right there. And since you're rolling for that single unit, and that single unit meets the prerequisites to be able to roll on Turn 1, then there you go.

Ghaz wrote:Then you're not using the 'Drop Pod Assault' rule and have basically disconnected the pod from those who are using the rule.

I'm not sure how that's relevant. The remaining Drop Pods are rolled for normally, meaning they're units that are in Deep Strike Reserve along with the unit embarked on them. Since they're rolled for normally, you may indeed do the "and/or" selection shenanigans presented here.

Hmmn basic thing is missed ..If you are in a dedicated transport then you start embarked on it ..if its not a dedicated transport then you have to embark on it during turn one ...

morfydd wrote:
Hmmn basic thing is missed ..If you are in a dedicated transport then you start embarked on it ..if its not a dedicated transport then you have to embark on it during turn one ...

If that was relevant, it would shut down all "taxi services" in 40k. Is it relevant?

morfydd wrote:
Hmmn basic thing is missed ..If you are in a dedicated transport then you start embarked on it ..if its not a dedicated transport then you have to embark on it during turn one ...

False.

 Yarium wrote:

Option A (the Drop Pod unit) can't roll for reserves. Option B (the Grey Knights unit) can roll for reserves. Option A&B (the two combined together) can't roll for reserves. The sucker here is that because Option B is still an option, when it passes its Reserve roll, it forces the Drop Pod to begin the Deep Strike deployment process as well.

If the rules instead stated "make a single reserve roll for the Transport vehicle", then it'd be clear that the Grey Knights couldn't arrive on Turn 1, since the Transport can't make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. Unfortunately, it says "and/or", meaning that the unit contained in the Transport is a viable option. That is the permission right there. And since you're rolling for that single unit, and that single unit meets the prerequisites to be able to roll on Turn 1, then there you go.

The Pod isn't forced into rolling for reserves on Turn one, it has no permission to. You would have to roll for reserves turn two. The Nemesis strike force does say that 'instead of rolling for reserves at the start of turn two, you can roll for reserves at the start of turn one'. Nothing forces you to roll for reserves turn one, it is a option that you can voluntarily choose.

Ideally, don't break rules. By choosing to DS turn one with the GK, you're breaking the rolling for reserves rule for the BA Drop Pods. It doesn't matter that you make a combined reserves roll, the fact is those Pods are coming in when they have no permission to.

@morfydd, dedicated transports restrict the unit that can start embarked, other than that you can start what unit you want in them.

Yarium wrote:Arriving from Reserves is not a type of movement. Even Deep Striking is not a type of movement (it is technically a type of deployment that occurs before the movement phase). I know you feel this is not the case, as you have presented a similar argument in other rules debates. I do not have the rules in front of me right now, so I can't effectively argue this right now though. However, if you have the rules, please post where the Deep Strike is considered a movement, and I will happily cede that point. Even still, it doesn't change that the Reserve Roll has nothing to do with movement, and thus has nothing to do with whether or not the unit can arrive from Deep Strike turn 1. Deep Striking is a process of deploying the unit - but even if it were movement, it'd still just be a way to describe how it moves as it enters the battlefield. The Reserve Roll is a separate thing, and that's what's being influenced here.

Arriving from Reserves involves movement (actually, its Moving On From Reserves, but they are connected). In order to compete it, the unit must move on to the table.

Yes, Deep Striking is deploying, this was not argued against. I said it is considered a form of movement, and by that I was referencing these lines:

It replaces the movement required for Moving On From Reserve that normally occurs and applies the same restrictions.

And while the Reserve Roll may be influenced, the Transport does not have the influence and it's "movement" is what determines the Embarked's available actions. When a unit is deployed in to a Transport, it normally cannot change how the Transport is deployed, it is the Transport's rules that make that determination. Where it changes from this, it is noted. Note the exceptions in Infiltrate and Scout for examples and precedence.

Yarium wrote:As for your next point, it doesn't matter if it confers to the Transport. It, in fact, does not confer to the Transport vehicle. However, that is not a necessity of the rules. The rules only ask you to make a single Reserve roll, to which the Grey Knights in that detachment are legally allowed to do. Once made, both units arrive, as they are a combined unit. The Transport does not need to have that rule, since the Transport is not the unit that is being rolled for. I think the problem here is that you are considering the Combined Unit to be the only thing here that can make a Reserve Roll. There are in fact THREE (3) such units; the Drop Pod, the Grey Knights, and the Drop Pod-Grey Knight Combined Unit. This is what "and/or" means, you can do (Option A) OR (Option B) OR (Option A&B).

Option A (the Drop Pod unit) can't roll for reserves. Option B (the Grey Knights unit) can roll for reserves. Option A&B (the two combined together) can't roll for reserves. The sucker here is that because Option B is still an option, when it passes its Reserve roll, it forces the Drop Pod to begin the Deep Strike deployment process as well.

If the rules instead stated "make a single reserve roll for the Transport vehicle", then it'd be clear that the Grey Knights couldn't arrive on Turn 1, since the Transport can't make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. Unfortunately, it says "and/or", meaning that the unit contained in the Transport is a viable option. That is the permission right there. And since you're rolling for that single unit, and that single unit meets the prerequisites to be able to roll on Turn 1, then there you go.

I'm sorry, there is nothing that really supports that because in order to do this you have to have permission to ignore the Transport's requirements with the Embarked's abilities. I do not see any permission for this outside of a very few occasions as noted before. The and/or is including situations where they apply and eliminating those that do not apply so ICs, Embarked units, and Transports do not come in separately.

I do not see this as a Combined unit. I see it as an Embarked unit on a Transport and the Transport controlling the arrival from Reserves.

morfydd wrote:Hmmn basic thing is missed ..If you are in a dedicated transport then you start embarked on it ..if its not a dedicated transport then you have to embark on it during turn one ...

Hardly missed when it is not there. Read Deployment rules, Reserves rules, and the two sections on Dedicated Transports.

Actually, you can influence deployment. Dont have rulebook for a few mins still, but if Im not mistaken Infiltrate actually does confer to the vehicle if the unit inside has it, so that may muddy the waters on this one.