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Davor wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
But the OP's main concern wasn't in getting a mostly complete SM demi-company. He likes painting amd wants to learn more about the game. Dark Vengeance fits his needs better than BaC. He'll have plenty of time to have his enthusiasm crushed the first time he runs into a couple Wraithknights or a Tau army. Let him have his fun without worrying about tabletop effectiveness

Except Dark Vengeance is wasting money. Buy BOC, paint them all the same, play them as separate units to get a feel.

Buying BOC is a waste of money. That doesn't help play 40K at all. Where are your options to help him play and understand playing 40K? The minis for BOC are really not that great so spending $180 to me is a waste of money.

If all he needs to do is learn how to play, this can be done for free with Vassal 40K. There is no point in buying DV- it's simply a complete waste of money on mediocre units that you'll either never use (because the army is terrible/they suck) or simply too weak to build a proper army. The Calth models are perfectly fine, and the tactical marines are better than the vanilla ones by virtue of being MK IV. Not to mention the amount of money you save by buying it is insane- three tactical squads alone would run you up $120 without discounts from FLGS's or online purchasing- and the Warstore, which I got mine from, would only cost the OP $120 prior to tax. On top of that there's a fricken' Contemptor Dreadnought with MM, a Chaplain, and terminators with a varied loadout compared to the Deathwing squad.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
But the OP's main concern wasn't in getting a mostly complete SM demi-company. He likes painting amd wants to learn more about the game. Dark Vengeance fits his needs better than BaC. He'll have plenty of time to have his enthusiasm crushed the first time he runs into a couple Wraithknights or a Tau army. Let him have his fun without worrying about tabletop effectiveness

Except Dark Vengeance is wasting money. Buy BOC, paint them all the same, play them as separate units to get a feel.

Except that OP mainly wants to paint cool minis, which DV is filled with., with a side interest in learning the game.

Buying BaC + the rulebook is wasting money compared to buying DV when you want to paint minis and learn about the game.

Heaven forbid people consider miniatures anything other than a physical representation of a few lines of rules.

He can get a dark vengence rule book off ebay for like 30 bucks. BOC gives you ever thing you need to make a demi company and more, the only dead weight being the terminators. DV has a ton of dead weight models. Once he learns how to play the game he'll learn he wasted his money.

If you're going to be playing at home with a friend/brother/child then DV is a great way to start - all you're missing is terrain.

If you're going to be playing in a store, then you'd be better off with one of the Start Collecting! boxsets. You mention in the OP that DV doesn't have many models you'd want to paint, so choose the box of the faction you like the most.

Add to this the mini rule book from eBay and a set of dice and templates and you'll clock in at around the same price - with less miniatures overall, but more of what you want (hopefully).

HoundsofDemos wrote:
He can get a dark vengence rule book off ebay for like 30 bucks. BOC gives you ever thing you need to make a demi company and more, the only dead weight being the terminators. DV has a ton of dead weight models. Once he learns how to play the game he'll learn he wasted his money.

Unless he's in it mainly for the models, and nit the game, even after learning how to play?

I still say BOC is better because there not push fit and are actually customization/ convertable. Building and conversions are an important aspect

It all depends on what the OP wants:

If you're already aquianted with the rules and have all the paperwork, Betrayal at Calth is the best value as it gives you basically a ready-made army right out of the box, and a substantial one at that. The choices, while not super powerful, are a solid base for the beginning of any SM army.

If you have the rulebook but still new to the game, then any of the Start Collecting! boxes is right for you. While not as big of a discount as Betrayal, it has a lot more variety in models as well as having a formation to let you play the contents right away. The models usually don't have that many complicated rules (with the possible exception of Mechanicus) so if you have a basic understanding, it's a good jumping off platform.

If you have absolutely no idea what the game is about, then Dark Vengeance is still the best choice. It comes with Quickstart rules and a series of scenarios specifically aimed at teaching the game to newcomers and mechanics. It also has a pocket rulebook that gets rid of most of the fluff. The drawback, obviously, is that it's more intended as a "Share" box rather than a starter for one person so you'll end up with a few models you might not want. It also has zero customization within the parts of the box, so there's no extra options to speak of.

It also depends if you want to play one of the colours of Space Marine, or CSM.

If you want to be one of the colours of Space Marine, the BaC box plus mini rule book plus SM codex is probably a good thing. Add in a couple of boxes of, say, Warriors of Chaos (or whatever they are called now - probably Bloodwarriors of Skulls! or something stupid...) and replace the SM codex with the CSM codex and you can make quite a nice CSM force with the bits.

If you don't want to play Marines, that would be a very bad purchase

Otherwise, read the fluff, look at the playstyles, get a starter set and codex for the faction you like most and also the mini rulebook. Best purchase!

I think there's a lot good stuff in this thread, but again, it all comes down to what the OP wants to do. We know the OP has gotten into the hobby through "the rule of cool" - I like that, therefore I want it, so I can paint it and love it and hug it etc.

Dark Vengeance Pros:
- Two armies (so a friend who goes "cool models" but has little interest in painting (yet) can join you for a game without any financial outlay on their part.
- Cool models (the Chosen are especially gorgeous, despite being push-fit, they have a ton of detail and can be painted really nicely).
- The box contains all of the rules to play the game, so you can get started learning the rules right away and decide if that's an avenue you want to pursue (so buy a Codex, more units etc).
- Price - this is probably the cheapest way to "get a game in".
Cons:
- As a Chaos player, they're one of the least competitive armies in the game currently - if you're just following the rule of cool and playing with casual folks, that's not a problem. If you play with people who see the game as a competitive scene, then you'll find it an uphill battle. I've got no experience with Dark Angels as far as competitiveness.
- If you don't want to play Chaos or Dark Angels, then you're starting with rules, but no models for your first army.

Battle at Calth Pros:
- The 30k marines are awesome multi-part plastics, very good quality. They can be painted up as any SM/CSM army, and can be combined with bits to personalise and "40k" them.
- Value - for the number of models you get, the box is very good value.
- You can game straight out of the box, although not the traditional 40k game (a simplistic board game).
Cons:
- If you want to play 40k, you'll need to get the rules - I'd suggest getting the Dark Vengeance mini-rulebook online, saves the expense of the big rulebook if you decide the game isn't for you.
- Only one army, so if you have a friend who wants to play, they'll need an army (or you could paint half the SMs in the box in different colours).

Starter Set Pros:
- Follow the "rule of cool" - find the coolest looking army that you like, and grab a starter set. If you're primarily a modeler and painter, this will be the best way to feel the passion about learning your army. There's little to no point picking an army that will win games because it's a strong army, only to burn out trying to paint the models because you're just not inspired by them.
- The starter sets are value for money, especially if you want to play an army not in DV or BaC.
Cons:
- No rules, so you'll need to purchase them separately.

It would help to know of what kind of play style you favour in this type of game. If you play (for example) Real Time Strategy games, what's your play style? Do you favour all-out attack, hit-and-run type tactics, or maybe to turtle, launching a decisive strike from behind a massive wall of armour?

I still think the "rule of cool" should play the strongest part - if you got here by modelling and painting, then keep going down that road. Find an army that looks awesome, and choose the best avenue based on that. It will ensure you have the most fun in the hobby.

Thanks for all the killer advice everyone!

So far, I'm having a BLAST just building and planning on how to paint the Space Marine Tactical Squad. I have A LOT of work and practice to do to get the miniatures painting to what I want them to look like. I'm already planning to get another Space Marine Tactical Squad set as I built a few for my kids (they want to paint, too!) and ran out of bits I like. I'm painting them Blue and will likely try my hand at the Red as well.

I think my take away advice so far is that I will get a mini rule book on E-Bay, then take it from there. Does the mini rule book give me a general idea of the strengths/weaknesses of the various armies or is that found elsewhere?

One good thing about the DV set is that it's actually a fairly self-contained box game if you don't plan on expanding. All of the minis are push-fit and can fit back into the box for storage (maybe not the dread without disassembling it from the base) so if you just want another board game for Friday Nights, it's actually a better buy than the supposed board game Betrayal at Calth (which is more of an introductory set for FW 30k space marines).

Mdlbuildr wrote:
Thanks for all the killer advice everyone!

So far, I'm having a BLAST just building and planning on how to paint the Space Marine Tactical Squad. I have A LOT of work and practice to do to get the miniatures painting to what I want them to look like. I'm already planning to get another Space Marine Tactical Squad set as I built a few for my kids (they want to paint, too!) and ran out of bits I like. I'm painting them Blue and will likely try my hand at the Red as well.

Awesome, dude! Welcome to Dakka and the hobby

Mdlbuildr wrote:
I think my take away advice so far is that I will get a mini rule book on E-Bay, then take it from there. Does the mini rule book give me a general idea of the strengths/weaknesses of the various armies or is that found elsewhere?

IIRC, the mini-rulebook has very little fluff, focusing mainly on the rules. You can ask around your local gaming store what people think about the various armies, hang around Dakka and post any specific Qs you have, or just dive in and buy a codex. Since you already have some Tactical Squads, simply buying a Space Marine codex might not be a bad idea. Spoler Alert: they're a pretty good army.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if 8th edition popped up this summer. GW has pretty much ran out of codex to update other than the two Chaos ones (if the rumors about the SW one is true) so an edition reboot will be the only way they can reprint those dexes again.

This is not true. SW is already a 7th edition codex and they're updating it. Basically any codices pre-decurion are due for an update. They have found a way to shift the meta without a total rulebook overhaul.

 mazik765 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if 8th edition popped up this summer. GW has pretty much ran out of codex to update other than the two Chaos ones (if the rumors about the SW one is true) so an edition reboot will be the only way they can reprint those dexes again.

This is not true. SW is already a 7th edition codex and they're updating it. Basically any codices pre-decurion are due for an update. They have found a way to shift the meta without a total rulebook overhaul.

I totally agree with this.

All codex releases pre-2015 are much weaker and offer fewer choices compared to those printed after 2015 (Necron onwards). Which is about half of the major factions. Tyranid, Guard, Space Wolves Grey Knights, CSM, Daemons, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, and Orks would all love new books in the current meta. And then they have factions that could turn into 3-4 week releases, like Sisters and Inquisition.

Even at a fierce release cadence with little room for Sigmar, that's a solid year of books.

Necrons jumped from 5th edition to being the first Decurion Codex, jumping over 6th edition and basically into "7.5" edition.

Plus, you know, money. 7th edition came before a lot of 5th edition got updated so it's not like they haven't done this before. Hell I think 3rd edition was the only time GW actually got most of the codex updated, and they still dropped a lot of armies from print to do so.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Necrons jumped from 5th edition to being the first Decurion Codex, jumping over 6th edition and basically into "7.5" edition.

Plus, you know, money. 7th edition came before a lot of 5th edition got updated so it's not like they haven't done this before. Hell I think 3rd edition was the only time GW actually got most of the codex updated, and they still dropped a lot of armies from print to do so.

As easy as it is to just say 'cause GW likes money' this fails to recognize how significant the decurion-meta shift is. Also why would they bother bringing SW, a codex that already has a 7th edition release, if 8th is coming in 5 months? I don't think we'll see a new rulebook for a long while yet. Like I said in my previous post, they've found other ways to shift the meta. Even if you want to make the 'geedubs loves money' argument, the decuriom formations encourage people to buy more models, and as we keep hearing the models are primary for GW.

 mazik765 wrote:

Also why would they bother bringing SW, a codex that already has a 7th edition release, if 8th is coming in 5 months?

Someone always has to be the last codex in the edition, and even when they forward plan (haha, GW forward planning...) the resulting X.5 codex is almost always the worst of both worlds. It is not like everyone can be a colour of space marine and get 56 codexes each edition

Davor wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Completely Worthless.

That is so helpful.

I just got an email from GW saying something about rule book for Android users. I think it's about $30 something. Not sure what funds that is in. So there is a good option if you just want the rules. Again, buyer be where. GW just released books on iPad and only lasted a few months.

Oh let me rephrase that so to help you can understand.

Dark Vengeance is Completely Worthless.

Rule book is out of date.

Chosens although awesome looking are equiped poorly as melee when a chaos terminators cost 4 more points and gets 2+ armor and power weapons.

No one very really uses helbrutes. They are too costly as a dread naught.

Cultist are worse than imperial guard.

DA

Who takes these terminators? people use storm shield and hammer and one guy with a cyclone missile launcher

Bikerz, who uses a plasmagun? most bikers use grav!

Tacticals, no grav. who uses plasma cannons? its all grav for sm!

 Filch wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Completely Worthless.

That is so helpful.

I just got an email from GW saying something about rule book for Android users. I think it's about $30 something. Not sure what funds that is in. So there is a good option if you just want the rules. Again, buyer be where. GW just released books on iPad and only lasted a few months.

Oh let me rephrase that so to help you can understand.

Dark Vengeance is Completely Worthless.

Rule book is out of date.

Chosens although awesome looking are equiped poorly as melee when a chaos terminators cost 4 more points and gets 2+ armor and power weapons.

No one very really uses helbrutes. They are too costly as a dread naught.

Cultist are worse than imperial guard.

DA

Who takes these terminators? people use storm shield and hammer and one guy with a cyclone missile launcher

Bikerz, who uses a plasmagun? most bikers use grav!

Tacticals, no grav. who uses plasma cannons? its all grav for sm!

Cultists aren't great, but they're still a heavily used unit, and the rulebook has been updated to the latest edition anyway.

Personally I think Grav was the worst thing to happen to SM since Matt Ward, as now everyone's chopping up their old marines to replace the meltas with gravs. Just business as usual for GW.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

I think my take away advice so far is that I will get a mini rule book on E-Bay, then take it from there. Does the mini rule book give me a general idea of the strengths/weaknesses of the various armies or is that found elsewhere?

Excellent idea. Take your time and pick an army that will be fun to build/paint/play.

The rulebook won't help you with weaknesses, etc. For that, look around these forums and/or post questions about armies you're interested in.


Welcome to the hobby!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Filch wrote:


Rule book is out of date.

Most recent copies of DV have the 7th edition rulebook.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

Except that OP mainly wants to paint cool minis, which DV is filled with., with a side interest in learning the game.

Buying BaC + the rulebook is wasting money compared to buying DV when you want to paint minis and learn about the game.

Heaven forbid people consider miniatures anything other than a physical representation of a few lines of rules.

I think this has been lost in a lot of the chatter of this thread. DV has awesome minis for painting, plus current rules and templates. The rules and templates are a $30 value, making the rest a grew starter set for someone primarily interested in painting minis.

Calth is a great way to get 30 tactical Marines, but so what? They'll be very repetitive to paint as your first 30 models. The terminators aren't amy better than the terminators in DV, either for model or game value, and the contemptor isn't any better than the Hellbrute that comes in DV for model or game value.

At the end of the day, one of the best things about DV is that it gives you a good taste of different model types in 40k, with simplified assembly -- plus core rules and templates. One of the best things about Calth is that you get a lot of the same, core power armor sprues, which is something that people who want to build 'serious' armies typically need at some point. It isn't either / or -- you can eventually get both.