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Maybe I deserve to be told to RTFM... but why are sternguard veterans so good?
I compared them to tac marines and the stats are almost the same except for no. of melee attacks? I also note they can take an extra HW or SW and have access to some nicer close combat weapons. I'm confused because the upgrades tend to affect melee combat, but it is a shooting squad - otherwise you'd take vanguard vets. Is it all about the extra heavy weapon? In which case why not take a devastator squad?
Sorry for being a naive noob

A) They have special ammunition. This makes their bolter fire very good as you have options for 2+ poison bolters or ignore cover
B) They all have access to combi-weapons so you can kit out the entire squad to have combi-melta to also blow up vehicles and such.

Actually, I tend to find them overpriced for what they do. In the age of shooty battles and middle S middle AP fire spam, they die just like any other marine.
They are notorious for being used as suicide melta squads that pop turn 2, blow a tank up a and don't do much after.
That being said, I think they are one of the coolest unit of the dex and I play them even though I know it's subpar somehow.

It's all about that special ammunition and the ability to give all of them Combi-weapons (and shoot with special ammunition for the rest of the game).
Disregard the melee upgrades and the only useful upgrade may be two Heavy Flamers (but even that depends).

 Hanskrampf wrote:
It's all about that special ammunition and the ability to give all of them Combi-weapons (and shoot with special ammunition for the rest of the game).
Disregard the melee upgrades and the only useful upgrade may be two Heavy Flamers (but even that depends).

So you're telling me skip the heavy weapons and go for bolters with specialist ammo?
I've tried to look up the rules for specialist ammo but havent had any luck looking in the core rules or in the codex SM. I expect google will be my friend...

DrDr244 wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
It's all about that special ammunition and the ability to give all of them Combi-weapons (and shoot with special ammunition for the rest of the game).
Disregard the melee upgrades and the only useful upgrade may be two Heavy Flamers (but even that depends).

So you're telling me skip the heavy weapons and go for bolters with specialist ammo?
I've tried to look up the rules for specialist ammo but havent had any luck looking in the core rules or in the codex SM. I expect google will be my friend...

Specialist Ammunition is in the wargear section of the SM codex

They can hit pretty hard coming out of a Drop Pod, but they have no greater durability than a regular marine so your opponent will likely remove them next turn.

DrDr244 wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
It's all about that special ammunition and the ability to give all of them Combi-weapons (and shoot with special ammunition for the rest of the game).
Disregard the melee upgrades and the only useful upgrade may be two Heavy Flamers (but even that depends).

So you're telling me skip the heavy weapons and go for bolters with specialist ammo?
I've tried to look up the rules for specialist ammo but havent had any luck looking in the core rules or in the codex SM. I expect google will be my friend...

At the back of the codex under 'Special issue wargear', just beneath the bike entry.

Thanks for that CrownAxe, and thanks to everyone for their advice. The specialist ammo sounds fun and I look forward to trying it out - am yet to play a game... but I'll jump in the deep end!

DrDr244 wrote:
Thanks for that CrownAxe, and thanks to everyone for their advice. The specialist ammo sounds fun and I look forward to trying it out - am yet to play a game... but I'll jump in the deep end!

As has already been said, their special ammo is what makes them awesome. Take a couple of combi-bolters in your unit, that way you get say some plasma/melta shots out of them and they can still use their special ammo with the combi-weapon. I love using mine. Turn 1 drop pod strike, they step out of the drop pod (2 of them have combi-plasma's) and I can usually wipe out or near enough wipe out whatever nasty enemy infantry unit is in my opponents deployment zone.

The two main uses are combi weapon spam, and the special ammo. There used to be a few more tricks in previous codexes due to upgrade costs, but those went away.

To reliably kill a tank, you need 3-5 melta shots. Depending on a number of factors, and what you consider reliable. Generally, we can’t get that many in one squad. Sternguard with combis, and command squads are two places. Combis also favor the alpha strike. If my first shot kills/cripples you, you don’t get to shoot back. This can start the landslide to victory.

Special ammo works very well against so many things. The one you will probably use the most is the wounds on a 2+ poisened rounds. When using a doctrine, or IF bolter drill, you get to pick up a massive handful of dice, pretty much hit with all of them, and then wound with almost all of them. Even against 2+ armor saves, it’s a lot of them to make, and the 1s will show up.

There are a lot of cover shenanigans out there. We’ve got an ammo to deal with that.

Vengeance rounds for AP3 are nice. Better with a doctrine/drill to re-roll those ones. Make it much safer, and more lethal.

Kracken rounds don’t get a lot of use from me, but they do have their moments. Extra range and AP4 can be useful.

Combi Grav is good too.

One of the things with sternguards is that, unlike a lot of other units in the game, they synergize VERY well with Combi Weapons due to their specialist ammunition. Normally Combi-weapons are one use (and sternguards are no exception) but because the Specialist Ammunition still functions with the bolter part of a Combi Weapon, there's actually more incentive to give them combi-weapons rather than special or heavy weapons, as those replace the Bolter and renders Specialist Ammunition rather pointless.

Now, Specialist Ammunition sounds good on paper, but are not the meet-all-end-all that most people make them out to be, but it's still fairly effective against what it's suppose to go against and, because it's their base equipment, you can keep upgrades to a minimum and have volume of fire on your side.

This leads into one of the premier tactics for Sternguards: Drop Pod Suicide Squads. The idea is you take a bunch of sternguards, give them a combi weapon, and put em in a drop pod. On the turn they come in, due to the amount of combi-weapons, they can basically "delete" any unit on the board with relative impunity. The reason it's called Suicide is because your sternguards will most likely end up in the deep end of enemy troops, so they will probably die next turn. However, the ability to simply erase a unit from existence with relative impunity is often too good an option to pass up.

Sternguards can do this a little better than most other suicide squads though, because not only do they have volume of fire on their side, but because Specialist Ammunition allows them to actually do something should they survive the next turn. Normally a unit like this is kitted out to do one task and one task only, so the moment they drop they probably can't do much else even if they survive. Sternguards, with their Specialist Ammunition, can switch targets and still do respectably well against them (say, come down and wipe out a Hammerhead with their meltas, then turn around and switch to the AP4 bolts and fire into some fire warriors). This gives some flexibility to the sternguards in case they do live.

The biggest drawback to this tactic is the cost. Sternguards don't come cheap in terms of points and while 5 points doesn't sound like much it adds up when you start outfitting models with them. Then there's the drop pod. This gets very expensive for a unit that, for all intents and purposes, you're going to throw away after a single turn. But if they can erase a key unit from the enemy (say, their only heavy weapon that can threaten your tanks), the benefits often outweigh the cost. They're a scalpel and should be used as such.

If you are taking a suicide melta squad, give one of them an actual meltagun.

If they live to two somehow, they can try to get lucky and nail a second tank. If not, oh well, the meltagun costs the same as a combi melta.

I believe that a command squad with four meltas is cheaper than the sternguard, so if you truly don't expect them to survive that might be a better way to go.

I find them much more worthwhile if I don't suicide them. They have 30" AP 4 ammo, and so they can start in from quite a distance. They are quite lethal against most normal MCs, which is good as well.

I will suicide drop if I have to, but prefer a safer flank drop. Generally 10 men with 2xHFs in pod.

But there are times where you need to shut someone down before psychic buffs go up. Those days, you drop into the meatgrinder.

If I remember they have an AP3 round too don't they?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If I remember they have an AP3 round too don't they?

Yup. Vengeance rounds. Shorter range (IIRC) and gets hot. Still worth using is you need to erase MEQ from the table. But when things are in cover or have an invuln, so they still get a save, you are often just better off wounding on a 2+ and letting them fail saves due to weight of fire.

 Nevelon wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If I remember they have an AP3 round too don't they?

Yup. Vengeance rounds. Shorter range (IIRC) and gets hot. Still worth using is you need to erase MEQ from the table. But when things are in cover or have an invuln, so they still get a save, you are often just better off wounding on a 2+ and letting them fail saves due to weight of fire.

The AP 3 rounds have interesting math vs scatbikes. They basically force jinks.

Problem with Scatbikes is that they can probably stay out of the range of the Vengeance rounds.

Honestly whoever thought that EVERY BIKE should take a Scatter laser probably had his Space Elves brutalized by marines in the past.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Problem with Scatbikes is that they can probably stay out of the range of the Vengeance rounds.

Honestly whoever thought that EVERY BIKE should take a Scatter laser probably had his Space Elves brutalized by marines in the past.

Well with drop pods or some other deep strike mechanism, they don't get a choice for one round.

They made the model kit with all scatterlasers as an option, and then wrote the codex accordingly.

Sternguard are good because they will do more damage point for point compared to Tactical Marines, can double up on Special Weapons with only a few dudes in the squad, AND everyone can take a Combi-Weapon.

To me, it seems to make sense to take half combi, half regular and combat squad. That way one squad busts the tank, then the other shoots up whatever falls out.

DrDr244 wrote:
Maybe I deserve to be told to RTFM... but why are sternguard veterans so good?
I compared them to tac marines and the stats are almost the same except for no. of melee attacks? I also note they can take an extra HW or SW and have access to some nicer close combat weapons. I'm confused because the upgrades tend to affect melee combat, but it is a shooting squad - otherwise you'd take vanguard vets. Is it all about the extra heavy weapon? In which case why not take a devastator squad?
Sorry for being a naive noob

if you use imperial fists CT for bolter drill they're okay. Anything else, Command squad is just better.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
One of the things with sternguards is that, unlike a lot of other units in the game, they synergize VERY well with Combi Weapons due to their specialist ammunition. Normally Combi-weapons are one use (and sternguards are no exception) but because the Specialist Ammunition still functions with the bolter part of a Combi Weapon, there's actually more incentive to give them combi-weapons rather than special or heavy weapons, as those replace the Bolter and renders Specialist Ammunition rather pointless.

Now, Specialist Ammunition sounds good on paper, but are not the meet-all-end-all that most people make them out to be, but it's still fairly effective against what it's suppose to go against and, because it's their base equipment, you can keep upgrades to a minimum and have volume of fire on your side.

This leads into one of the premier tactics for Sternguards: Drop Pod Suicide Squads. The idea is you take a bunch of sternguards, give them a combi weapon, and put em in a drop pod. On the turn they come in, due to the amount of combi-weapons, they can basically "delete" any unit on the board with relative impunity. The reason it's called Suicide is because your sternguards will most likely end up in the deep end of enemy troops, so they will probably die next turn. However, the ability to simply erase a unit from existence with relative impunity is often too good an option to pass up.

Sternguards can do this a little better than most other suicide squads though, because not only do they have volume of fire on their side, but because Specialist Ammunition allows them to actually do something should they survive the next turn. Normally a unit like this is kitted out to do one task and one task only, so the moment they drop they probably can't do much else even if they survive. Sternguards, with their Specialist Ammunition, can switch targets and still do respectably well against them (say, come down and wipe out a Hammerhead with their meltas, then turn around and switch to the AP4 bolts and fire into some fire warriors). This gives some flexibility to the sternguards in case they do live.

The biggest drawback to this tactic is the cost. Sternguards don't come cheap in terms of points and while 5 points doesn't sound like much it adds up when you start outfitting models with them. Then there's the drop pod. This gets very expensive for a unit that, for all intents and purposes, you're going to throw away after a single turn. But if they can erase a key unit from the enemy (say, their only heavy weapon that can threaten your tanks), the benefits often outweigh the cost. They're a scalpel and should be used as such.

This covers it nicely and is a great detailed explaination on a unit.
/thread

kamikaze sucide squads thats why

 ionusx wrote:
kamikaze sucide squads thats why

I really don't think that this is that good of a tactic.

I prefer to use them in rhinos and let the ammo pay for itself over the game. How well this works though depends on how stompy your meta is with bigger things.

Just because it's the popular way to use them doesn't mean it's the only way.

In Kantor-based lists they replace Tacticals as the objective campers since they handle threats much more efficiently.

Again, their synergy with Combi-weapons give them a sort of "tactical swiss army knife" role that the actual Tactical Squads don't fill very well. Just note that they are /good/ at doing things, but not GREAT at doing things.

I give my sternguards combi-meltas free from the archangel sanguine wing formation. With combi meltas, they can put the hurt on practically anything for one turn. From there, they can put the hurt on regular MCs that don't have 2+ armor, infantry with 4+ or worse, or any units rely on cover to live.